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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Will all Springfield M1A/M14s accept 20 rd mags? I've found one I want but it's Commiefornia compliant. To my understanding, that means it doesn't have pistol grip or flash suppressor and ships with 10rd mag. I could put a my Socom 16 stock on there and slap a 20rd mag in and be good to go, right? I'd be very unhappy if I ended up with a gun that has some tab or random weird "safety" feature that stops me from using 20rd mags. Thanks in advance for the help guys
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks. I've read the manual and am familiar with the gun but not an expert. I just want to make sure I haven't overlooked something. I think I'm going to have Fulton armory custom build my barrel/receiver so it prob won't be an issue. I've decided on a chopped down m1a as my SHTF rifle. I'm confident and comfortable with my 9mm and 12g but need a good rifle that won't leave me wanting stopping power or reliability. I think the .308 in a 16" barrel will do that job well. Unless anyone wants to give me a better idea???I'm open to suggestions.
 

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This may of interest.

It is a Remington 700 Tactical chambered in .308. It is mounted in a Magpul 700 Hunter stock/chassis. There is an option to add removable 5 or 10 shot magazines with an accessory magwell. The system works flawlessly and the mags are under $40.
It has a stout 20" bull barrel, Timney trigger and 6 x 18 Vortex scope.
It is sub M.O.A. with crap ammo and much better with Federal Premium 168 grain.

GW
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Looks good and It will never jam unless the operator induces it. Sounds ridiculous but I've seen someone jack a 700 up by short stroking the bolt at full speed(I guess that's how jammed it but who knows). That would be me with too much adrenaline. I thought about a 700 for this build but don't want to have to work the bolt action under pressure. I'm not confident enough in myself to think I can successfully do it fast. All that being said, I'd love to shoot it! I have a brand new lever action 1966 centennial 30-30 that I'm waiting on a scope mount for. That would be my go to heavy for something big. I'd hate to shoot it but if the SHTF, all bets are off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm a big believer in the
Looks good and It will never jam unless the operator induces it. Sounds ridiculous but I've seen someone jack a 700 up by short stroking the bolt at full speed(I guess that's how jammed it but who knows). That would be me with too much adrenaline. I thought about a 700 for this build but don't want to have to work the bolt action under pressure. I'm not confident enough in myself to think I can successfully do it fast. All that being said, I'd love to shoot it! I have a brand new lever action 1966 centennial 30-30 that I'm waiting on a scope mount for. That would be my go to heavy for something big. I'd hate to shoot it but if the SHTF, all bets are off.
Found it in Dads closet after he passed. I could prob trade it forgot towards what I'm building now but since it was Dad's, I'm married to it and no one gets it but my son when I go.
 

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The stock 700 magazine can be a bit touchy during normal use, and more so when you rush. With the Magpul setup I can shoot and cycle the next round pretty quick, but that is under controlled conditions off of a sandbag.

GW
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Exactly. I want .308 power in a dependable, proven, auto setup. I think the Springfield Socom 16 or pretty close is what I need. I don't have anything against the ar setup except for how fast it gets dirty and how many times I was forced to clean one. I just prefer the open action and want more power. Unless I get ridiculous, .308 is pretty much it...I know from experience that the 700 is a great rifle.
 

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If you already have AR/M16/M4 experience, I’d actually go with a .308 AR platform, if you must have .308 for SHTF.

design is more adaptable to optics. Overall maintenance is actually lower than the M14 platform with regard to maintaining accuracy. Fewer tools required to clean it. Ergonomics are better, and again, if you have experience with an AR platform, it will be an easier transition. You could have separate uppers for one lower, for different purposes. AR platform is not as sensitive to .308 vs. 7.62 NATO differences in ammo.

I’ve had a NM Springfield for over 20 years now. I want to finish building my big AR. I switched from my M1A in Fleet matches to the AR15 platform, as the ergonomics were an advantage in some stages, minimizing my need to get out of a set position and reset and still be back on target, especially in prone.

After my first time requiring a stock bedding redo, on the M1A once accuracy began to drop, I decided an AR was a better platform for accuracy maintenance. Plus I can run a 16“ carbine barreled upper, and have a 20-24” varmint upper, or precision Optics upper, and a National match compliant upper.

Food for thought.
 

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There may be an AR10 on the menu for me this fall.:cool:

GW
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
If you already have AR/M16/M4 experience, I'd actually go with a .308 AR platform, if you must have .308 for SHTF.

design is more adaptable to optics. Overall maintenance is actually lower than the M14 platform with regard to maintaining accuracy. Fewer tools required to clean it. Ergonomics are better, and again, if you have experience with an AR platform, it will be an easier transition. You could have separate uppers for one lower, for different purposes. AR platform is not as sensitive to .308 vs. 7.62 NATO differences in ammo.

I've had a NM Springfield for over 20 years now. I want to finish building my big AR. I switched from my M1A in Fleet matches to the AR15 platform, as the ergonomics were an advantage in some stages, minimizing my need to get out of a set position and reset and still be back on target, especially in prone.

After my first time requiring a stock bedding redo, on the M1A once accuracy began to drop, I decided an AR was a better platform for accuracy maintenance. Plus I can run a 16" carbine barreled upper, and have a 20-24" varmint upper, or precision Optics upper, and a National match compliant upper.

Food for thought.
So even with the Socom cqb 6 position stock that has rails, you think an AR platform has a big ergonomic advantage?
I dont have very much experience with the m1a. All I know is it SEEMS the open action would be able to go longer than the ar without cleaning. My dad used one as a Marine and said he loved it. We had always planned to build one before he passed so deep down, I think that is playing a big part in my decision to go that way as opposed to the ar. However, being able to swap uppers and the massive amount of ar parts available today make it hard to mane an argument for anything else. I know that other than cleaning them, I never had any complaints with the ar. It was beat up and hard used and the people who used it before me prob did a half ass job of cleaning it. It still ran fine.
 

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So even with the Socom cqb 6 position stock that has rails, you think an AR platform has a big ergonomic advantage?
I dont have very much experience with the m1a. All I know is it SEEMS the open action would be able to go longer than the ar without cleaning. My dad used one as a Marine and said he loved it. We had always planned to build one before he passed so deep down, I think that is playing a big part in my decision to go that way as opposed to the ar. However, being able to swap uppers and the massive amount of ar parts available today make it hard to mane an argument for anything else. I know that other than cleaning them, I never had any complaints with the ar. It was beat up and hard used and the people who used it before me prob did a half ass job of cleaning it. It still ran fine.
Many Folks think the open top contributes to reliability because of room for dirt to move.
seems it's actually backward thinking. A more sealed system keeps dirt out in the first place.

The ARs weakness is that the gas empties in the area where it also feeds. But if you keep up with cleaning this area, it is a very reliable system. the gas system on an M14 pattern rifle requires tools to get into it and clean it. It does keep the dirty gas away from the feeding area though.

With regard to accuracy, it takes a bit of work to get and maintain accuracy with an M14 pattern rifle. Open action flexes, which makes accuracy tougher from the beginning. Adding an optics mount is tough, because of this And good optics and mounts for this platform are limited. Then the stock and action interface is not the most rock solid. The action is basically pinched into wood or a synthetic stock, but is usually not really snug from the factory and loosens with shooting. The action can be bedded to the stock to improve this, and synthetic stock hold better than wood, but precision and repeatability will deteriorate and bedding will need to be redone periodically. Another factor in bedding will be maintaining consistent friend pressure on the gas block. (The M14/M1A Barrel cannot be truly free floated). Every time you bed the action you try to keep the friend pressure the same, or you are going to need to re-zero. Then the gas block and operating rod hold separate moving pieces which ha# an effect on accuracy. Parts of the gas block can be "unitized" or pinned together to minimize some of the movements in the gas block itself As the intermediate piston moves. Then a good trigger job.
changing a barrel usually requires a gunsmith.

The formula for accuracy on an AR is easier. Sights, rails, barrel etc. are all on the upper receiver. Everything moves in a straight line. The gas system on the barrel has no moving parts. A form of bedding at the rear pillar on the upper receiver can eliminate or minimize upper/lower movement and requires little to no maintenance. free float the barrel and it is going to stay that way. Add a nice trigger and sighting system, and done. Most anything can be done by someone at home with some tools and no machining equipment, presses, etc.

Ergos: pistol grip was part of AR design. Trigger reach is better to me, safety is right at my thumb. Bolt release can be activated with support hand. Mags load straight, in instead of having to catch and rock in. Push button and drop instead of rocking out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for all the info. I'm really reconsidering my choice. I work on all my pistols and shotguns and hardly ever take one to the gunsmith. I assumed (mistakenly) this would be the same. This is why I asked the question and you have given me the exact answer I needed. There is no substitute for experience. Thanks for sharing yours-really! I guess an ar10 it is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Update- After really thinking about it, I realized that I wanted something that doesn't exist. Accuracy of a bolt action, reliability of an ak, range of .308, easy maintenance of an ak... Basically, I wanted a perfect gun that could everything but It doesn't exist. I settled on 2 rifles. A good Ak 47 and a bolt action 700 or Tikka. Already ordered the ak. I know I loved my last one. Preferred it to the AR all day. Before anyone loses their mind, I'm not saying the AK is better and the AR sucks. I'm saying that for me, I'd rather have an ak. I've heard all the arguments about AK vs AR and I'm not trying to fall down that rabbit hole again. Just for me, it's a superior design that's easier to maintain, more reliable. It is SLIGHTLY less accurate and gives up a LITTLE range but hits harder.
 

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Not a bad way to go. I have owned both, ARs and AKs and tend to chuckle a bit at AR vs AK debates. What I have learned over time is: ARs are far more reliable than internet experts believe. AKs are more accurate than internet experts believe.

My preference for the AR only really comes down to ergonomics, such as placement of controls, and modularity.

A good bolt action is not a bad thing to have. I have a .30-06 Sako, that has proven to be super smooth and accurate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I know my last AK was plenty accurate with iron sights as far as I could see without a scope. I think my preference comes down to this-It's easy, simple, and reliable. As long as its made the way it was originally designed, those three things are a result of the design-not precision engineered space age polymers and tolerances the are within .00001 inch. Ditry? Ok. Cheap ammo? no problem. Left it in a swamp last night? It will be fine. Ran it until the barrel was glowing red? Ok, just let it cool off. I don't abuse my guns but in an end of the world scenario, I feel better knowing I could if my life depended on it. I think my dislike of the AR or, more accurately, lack of love for it comes from dealing with over used, neglected ones. Just like the people who say the Beretta sucks because of their experiences in the military. If the world ends or turns into a s#it show for a couple months I want all my equipment to be as simple, reliable, and easy to maintain as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Not a bad way to go. I have owned both, ARs and AKs and tend to chuckle a bit at AR vs AK debates. What I have learned over time is: ARs are far more reliable than internet experts believe. AKs are more accurate than internet experts believe.

My preference for the AR only really comes down to ergonomics, such as placement of controls, and modularity.

A good bolt action is not a bad thing to have. I have a .30-06 Sako, that has proven to be super smooth and accurate.
I've been an ak fan for a while but never disliked the ar platform. Today I was talking to my brother in law who did 3(at least)combat tours in Iraq and gannystan. He was part of what can only be described as an elite unit. Ive seen his awards and his va paperwork so i know he isnt exaggerating his service. If anything, he's downplaying it. The guy legitimately has more combat trigger time than anyone I know. He looked at my ak and said "good for you!". I asked him what he thought about the ak/AR argument and he said that he and most of his guys turned in their ARs so they could carry new AKs they had seized. Given the fact these guys were top notch and had their choice of equipment but most went with the AK, there's really no argument anyone could make for the AR. Not in my mind anyway. He even took it a step further and said the only other rifle he would carry would be an AR10 but only if he needed the range and only if a 7.62x54 wasn't available. I think the Dragunov was what he liked for range.
 

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I may or may not have had some onboard discussions with some guys who ride submarines to destinations on rare occasions and they said, that the AK had some qualities they liked, and some qualities they didn’t. They actually said they got more debris in the actions than M4, M16, Mk12 mod-0 and Mod-1 variants. They preferred the control placement and manual of arms of the M16 family. I asked what they liked about the AK and was basically told, for something you could ditch easy and when they needed a bare bones rifle or to look like someone they weren’t.

Mostly they stuck with the M16 platform for uniformity of ammo, mags, parts when in the field as well as the most familiarity and flexibility due to the modular design. SPR upper and a shorty upper gave them some adaptability, and they could keep those sorts of things pre-staged on the boat. They are the guys who got me building multiple uppers for different purposes for my own ARs. Light weight carbine For run and gun competitions and mid weight mid range optic equipped coyote blaster for Just exactly blasting coyotes. A 20” match barreled flat top with high powered optics for smaller more, distant targets, and a national match upper for service rifle,competitions. 2 lowers are all I need. One with collapsible stock and one with fixed stock.

Never saw an AK come aboard.
 

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Last year we had a SWAT TEAM citizens demonstration.
We were actually able fire their ARS and side piece glock 21 45 .
Cal.

I've always been a mini 14 guy.
I was gonna pick up an AR at the lgs.
When it was my turn to shoot the AR it jammed on the second shot.
True story, last summer.
We did some mock pullovers, got into a fire fight. It was point and shooting
I was more concerned about keeping the engine block between me and the shooter.
Many police pullovers will Kant or cant their vehicle to angle the engine block, just in case
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I was just so surprised to hear him tell me that..He and his people were more of a fall from the sky type unit than a submarine type unit. I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers with this thread. I was just shocked to hear that. He did say they basically had as many brand new Russian Aks as they wanted along with quality mags/ammo so yes, being able to ditch it was part of the advantage. Who would rather fix something than drop it and pick up a brand new one if circumstances permit?
 
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