Lucky or what?
Wow! I must be the luckiest guy in the world!
Two years ago, I picked up a Taurus TCP PT738 as my CCW. Five hundred rounds through it, not a single hiccup.
Fast forward several months and I happen to see a Taurus PT709 Slim in the case at my LGS. Not a whole lot bigger than my PT738 and, a step up from .380acp to 9mm.
Bought it. 1500 troubles free rounds later, it's my new CCW and the TCP is now my BUG.
Yesterday, I picked up my Taurus PT809 from my LGS. Never cleaned it out, headed straight for the range with it.
Long story short........bang, bang, bang, every time I pulled the trigger for one hundred rounds.
So, given all the Taurus bashing that goes on, I guess I now have to consider myself an extremely fortunate individual to have bought three brand new Taurus pistols and have yet to have a problem with any of them.
Or, maybe their ISO certification actually means something to them and they are turning out good guns nowadays!
btw........for the naysayers who say that a Taurus will never appreciate in value, I've had several offers on my TCP for more than I paid for it. Apparently, they're in demand around here and none of the LGS's has them.
Lucky, lucky, lucky!
Are perhaps full of crap... I have had a lot of issues with my TCP. I had to send it in to Taurus to repair and this was before I ever fire a shot through it. I bought it brand new. Both mags that came with it could be easily pulled out of the TCP without depressing the mag release. Both mags occasionally just fell out without reason. There were plenty of FTLs and FTEs. Taurus service center in FL had to modify the feed ramp, replace the ejector, replace both mags because they were the wrong size, and replace the faulty mag release. The feed ramp looks like an idiot filed on it. Not a professional looking repair if you ask me. It does feed now and eject properly when hand racking the slide. I still haven't shot it and not sure I really want to. I think Taurus is capable of producing decent handguns, but their quality control really sucks based on all the similar complaints I have read concerning the TCP. I have owned a lot of Tauruses over the past three decades, but this is the first to be total crap. It is also the first model I have owned that was actually built in the USA. Perhaps that is the problem.
Originally Posted by lapetrarca53
Here are a set of photos taken before and after I sent the TCP in to Taurus for repairs. The left photo is the reason why it had so many FTLs. See how the ramp is pinched in near the top. Now that is crappy workmanship. The right two photos show the crappy repair and how they widened the ramp. Crappy as in the metal was left rough by their repairs. I have seen plent other photos that look very similar to mine.
If you're willing to trust your life to a Taurus, so be it.
Personally, my life, and that of my family, are worth the best weapon available.
Do any of you have ANY idea what an ISO 9000 Certification stands for?
Yeah. I do. I helped run a business which had to live up to that standard.
Originally Posted by lapetrarca53
Taurus may have gotten themselves certified at one point, and all of their product-lines may still live up to that certification, but still buying one of their guns seems to be a crap-shoot. (However, I'm going by the testimony of other people: I don't own one.)
Remember that ISO qualification doesn't eliminate the production of bad stuff. Rather, it only tries to help you handle that problem, and to thereby increase customer satisfaction.
Not only handle....eliminate! Trust me.....I made a career as a Certified ISO Quality Auditor. Companies subjecting themselves to such scrutiny will not survive if the commitment does not start from the top and become a part of the company culture.
If you haven't earned the ISO mark, you can't display it......legally. it's not a question of "still living up yo a certification". There is no such thing. Recertifications are required on a regular basis to insure compliance to specifications and to demonstrate a continual, ongoing Quality Improvement Program is in place working as designed.
Well, for some reason it doesn't seem to be working consistently at Taurus.
Maybe their military weapons conform to the standard, and they slough their almost-rejects off on us civilians.
Or maybe it's something else.
But, whatever the cause, the fact remains that an awful lot of people report serious problems with Taurus guns.
I own two Taurus's, a PT-92 9mm. Hundreds of rounds and never a failure. And a 94 .22LR wheelgun. Bought it used and it had a broken firing pin which Taurus fixed free-of-charge. Hundreds of .22LR rounds thru it and nary a problem. My experience with Taurus is the same as any other pistol: they all make a lemon now and again, and they normally generally make great products. Just like Ford, General Electric, LG, Apple, etc.....
Steve.....my point is that in the past, Taurus may have very well been known for low quality firearms. In my experience, I don't believe that to be the case any more.
In pursuing an ISO Certification, you make a commitment to constantly strive to build quality products using Continuous Process Improvement (CPI), Continuous Quality Improvement (CQI), and Root Cause Analysis. Very powerful tools used when pursuing and maintaining the ISO mark.
Again, you don't just "attain" the ISO mark and then walk away from it, You live it.....every day, from top to bottom. From the CEO to the janitor.
All defects must be addressed and Cause and Corrective Action taken whether it be process, personnel or materials.....or any of them in combination, must be taken, verified as being effective and documented.
It costs companies VERY large sums of money to maintain this internationally recognized mark. It's an extremely arduous undertaking that, speaking ONLY from MY OWN personal experience, appears to be working. Or maybe I'm just extremely lucky.
Again, having been a Certified Quality Auditor, my kudos to Taurus for their commitment to quality improvement. They're working hard to bring manufacturing jobs to the U.S. while at the same time investing some serious resources in their future success and it shows.
No one can say for sure but, some time in the not too distant future, the "best weapon available" just might be a Taurus!
I'm happy that some of you are experiencing good results with a Taurus.
And, if you happen to buy a "rare" model of a Taurus, that is hard to get your hands on, and if you can make a few bucks on it by selling it to a friend or acquaintance, go for it. There's always an exception or two, to each and every rule of thumb.
It'd be nice, if it turns out that you're correct.
Originally Posted by lapetrarca53
Some of Taurus's design ideas are headed in the right direction (although some decidedly are not).
One of the recent discouragements I've seen is that experienced by a well-respected psychologist and gun writer. He bought a Taurus PT709 Slim, used it for a while, and then its plastic frame fractured, sending splinters into his face. This was in 2010.
Click on: Defensive Handguns Forum - System Information
(See the very first post in this thread, and then read on.)
Then, other people began to report similar problems too.
Is that pre- or post-ISO certification?
Steve.....agreed on the designs!
The new carbine 9mm they've released is not, IMO, pretty in any way, shape, or form.
My GUESS, and it's pure speculation because it is a guess, would be that those issues, if they actually occurred, are most likely pre-cert. Still doesn't make it acceptable.
I must qualify the "if" statement as well.......if problems of that nature and severity did actually occur and were reported properly to the manufacturer, any certified company would have issued in a recall notice. The reason for that is that during a re-certification, those types of records are generally scrutinized. A lack of response and/or cause and corrective action investigation taking place would most likely result in the ISO mark being suspended or cancelled. That would immediately NOT allow Taurus to sell any more weapons to almost every country in Europe, Asia, Central and South America, since the ISO cert is a requirement in most every country in those regions. Not much market share left after that.
So, without actually reviewing the evidence involving those incidents, I'm a little skeptical.
My skepticism is a result of my training......not saying it couldn't happen......observe and verify.
The ISO mantra.........
"Say what you do" = document every process and/or procedure that could or, could potentially, occur during the course of the business day. From the time the front door is unlocked in the morning until the last person sets the alarm on the way out at night.
"Do what you say" = live or die by those documents.......every business day. From the CEO to the janitor.
"Be able to show and tell" = when I show up for my audit/re-certification inspection, it's my job to review every piece of documentation and/or physical evidence available to insure compliance with how you say you run your business. I'm going to drill down through those documents and ask LOTS of questions and require evidence from you to support the answer provided. If you don't know the answer, that's OK. I do, however, expect that you know where to go to get that answer. If not, you have not been properly trained in your company policies and procedures. A major non-conformance that could potentially result in a loss or suspension of the mark.
I agree with this. Just because one guy is happy with his Taurus does not negate the COUNTLESS horror stories that border on obscene on some occasions. We should ignore all that now, I guess.
Originally Posted by topgun47
I am happy the original poster is satisfied. But I too shall pass on the Taurus "experience." I don't have time to mess around with their stuff. As stated before, you do not see any law enforcement agency in this country issue a Taurus firearm, and I think that is for a good reason.
As I'm sure you're all aware, there are horror stories reported from every major manufacturer.
In fact, a couple that I'm personally aware through by my own personal observation and not a tale told second or third hand.......
My neighbor and I belong to the same club and go shooting together weekly.
He recently purchased a S&W M&P 45 VTACH and an M&P 9mm VTACH from our local LGS on the same day.
Turns out, the 9mm wasn't anywhere near close to being sighted in from the factory. He tried to adjust the rear sight but, it was frozen and would not move. He packed it up and sent if back to S&W indicating the problem......he couldn't adjust the rear sight. He got it back two weeks later and the repair order stated they replaced the front sight. Still couldn't sight it in. The rear sight is still frozen. It's back at S&W right now.
The S&W 45 had a large, uneven gap between the slide and the frame. LOTS of daylight showing! Sent it back to S&W. They replaced the gun and the desert tan finish on the second is full of black spots and blotches. He's trying to decide whether to keep it or sell it.......at a loss because it's now as used.
He's very discouraged. He's got $1200 invested in a pair of Smith & Wesson firearms that he can't use because they're poorly manufactured and, as a result, appear to be stuck in a loop going back and forth. I guess they'll get it right sooner or later.
I'm just glad (and lucky I guess) that I haven't had any problems with my Taurus' but, in my neighbors case, they're S&W's so I guess it's OK.
Someone said it earlier......there's always the exception to the rule.
As I said, "the best weapon available" in the future may very well be a Taurus. Will you be ready for it?
It is true that every company does make a lemon. However, it seems more of the norm for Taurus.
Honestly, though... I have been around guns a long time, and have owned QUITE a lot of different brands and models over the years. I feel like I have owned almost all the current defensive weapons at one time or another. I won't state publicly how many I have owned.
However, it goes around forever in conversations with a fan of Taurus products. I won't debate forever. If you like your guns, I am truly happy for you. But, do not expect to turn some of us around. Sorry. My opinion about Taurus is well known here on the forum. All I can say.
Your opinion is not going to sway me, and vice-versa apparently...
Apparently but, let's face it, would YOU proudly admit to spending $1200 on two, top quality firearms from a long established, reputable American manufacturer and proudly proclaim that after three months of ownership, neither one is use-able due to poor quality?
Originally Posted by Shipwreck
I'm glad you enjoy your Chevy too. But I'll stick with my Ford thank you.
For me, as trained, I choose observation over inference.......all the time, every time!
So, my question, lapetrarca: Does S&W subscribe to, and adhere to, ISO 9000?
Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
It's not a "subscription" based system at all. You don't pay your fee and get your mark. Every, and I mean every, aspect of how you say you run your company is scrutinized from top to bottom. Time between re-certifications can vary by industry.
Nonconformances carry varying weights depending on the severity but, all nonconformances must be addressed for Cause and Corrective Action. It's a constant self-auditing process for the customer.
Can't say S&W does but, if they do, the mark should be visible on external packaging. My guess is that they do. They may even be somehow covered under one of their GmBH divisions. I don't have any packaging available. They may mention on their website.
btw......I did find out about the cracked 709 frames.
They did have a problem with frames cracking due to a design flaw between the frame and trigger assembly in the early design. As a result of the reported problems, it was redesigned with four pins to reduce frame stress instead of the original design which only used two.
Guns returned with cracked frames were replaced with the redesigned models.
Cause and Corrective Action leads to Constant Quality Improvement.
Don't get me wrong, I CERTAINLY don't think that my Taurus pistols are the be all, end all of pistols but, my God, the nonsense that gets spread around about "Ford vs. Chevy" is ridiculous!
Remember back when the little, tin Honda cars were first introduced in the USA with their tiny 10" tires? Did you scoff at them and think...."what a piece of junk"? I know I did. Look at them now!
Point is, you can't always be looking back. Everything is still the same as it was. Keep moving forward. That's the only way to effect change!
I own a small number (5) of the Taurus models -- semi-autos and revolvers. I have never had a problem with any of them. Don't know about their absolute accuracy, but they're a lot more accurate than my old eyes are. I have used them on CHL qualification type shoots and quite frankly, I can't tell a difference when comparing them to similar barrel length Colt, Beretta, Sig, or Kimber firearms.
"Subscribe" has several meanings, all descending from the same concept. In my previous post, I used it in the sense of "to pledge, to sign an agreement," and definitely not in the sense of "to pay for an annual membership."
If S&W subscribes to ISO 9000 standards (which I, too, believe that they do), please explain, in terms of those standards, why your friend received two poorly-made pistols from S&W, and why S&W did not "make good" on them.
I ask that question because that problem is also what has been observed of Taurus.
I do not expect you to actually know the answers to these questions, but rather I only expect to make you sit back and mull the problem over.
To be completely straightforward, I do not believe that simply establishing a set of standards, and then merely subscribing to them, causes all manufacturing problems to be solved or quickly resolved.
I know, for instance, that although the products we made (under the ISO standards of the time) were properly constructed, finished, and packaged, one casually malevolent employee caused us no end of trouble when he randomly wrote gang signs on some of the parts he handled.
The ISO standards neither helped avoid, nor helped solve, this difficulty.
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