Hey, j4l, please tell me about the .25 ACP deaths you've seen in your E/R.
Was it, in any of these cases, possible to infer the distance between shooter and victim at the time the shot(s) were fired?
In the most usual (maybe the mode, but not the median or average) case, how many hits did the victim receive?
Could you infer or define which particular hit caused the (modal) death, or was the death a result of receiving multiple hits?
If the (modal) death was the result of a single hit, where was that hit? Head (eye, nose, ear, brain)? Heart? Neck? Thigh? Thorax? Pelvis?
Were there any remarkable, or unusual, factors involved in the (modal) death?
Was there evidence of drugs in the victim's system, in the modal or in the general case?
Is there any important factor I forgot to ask about?
A genius? Wow, thanks. My comment on the other post was relative to the recent fatal shootings surrounding Congresswoman Gifford. Just looking for your streetwise wiggle on that incident.
Originally Posted by EliWolfe
Here you go. I'm all ears.
You have stated that the 9mm FAILS Utterly as a handgun cartridge. You site "street" information and unknown physicians as proof. Well sir, in the recent shooting involving Congresswoman Gifford, a magazine full of 9mm fired spray and pray by a deranged drug addict totally destroys your pet "theory". That the Congresswoman survived is a miracle of sorts, but had she been a BG, her wound was a one shot stop. I am also willing to bet that the shooter used ball ammo, a 9mm+P hollowpoint might well have been fatal.
So as for your "streetsmarts" best rethink it. In the meantime, here is a list of folks you can't call to your defense as unfortunately the are now deseased, killed by the TOTALLY ineffective 9mm. You might consider an apology to these innocents, as I apologize for using them to illustrate a point. Please don't try to disect this shooting into some convoluted "proof" that the 9 won't kill folks. The verdict is allready in. Game over.
May they rest in peace.
Six people were killed in the attack; all but Christina-Taylor Green died at the scene of the shooting. The deceased are (in alphabetical order by surname):
1.Christina-Taylor Green, 9, of Tucson. Green was accompanied to the meeting by neighbor Susan Hileman. Born on September 11, 2001, she had appeared in the book Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11 (page 41). She was the granddaughter of former Major League Baseball player and manager Dallas Green.
2.Dorothy "Dot" Morris, 76, a retired secretary from Oro Valley; wife of George, who was wounded.
3.John Roll, 63, chief judge of the U.S. District Court for Arizona, named to the federal bench by President George H. W. Bush in 1991.
4.Phyllis Schneck, 79, homemaker from Tucson.
5.Dorwan Stoddard, 76, retired construction worker, from a gunshot wound to the head; his wife Mavy was wounded.
6.Gabriel "Gabe" Zimmerman, 30, community outreach director for Giffords, and a member of Giffords' staff since 2006.
Thirteen people were wounded in the attack; a fourteenth person was injured at the scene, but was determined not to have been shot. Gabrielle Giffords and two other members of her staff were among the surviving gunshot victims.
Didnt say it never happens, merely that it does so rarely enough to be foolish to rely on it to do so for you. For any one case you can cite of 9mm performing fatally, im quiet sure a 10000 more folks can counter with the opposite.
Again, there's a lot of valid reasons why the Feds, all but perhaps 3 or 4 law-enforcement agencies in the U.S., and the military have dropped the 9mm cold.
In the LEO end of things, most opted for the .40, and If you ask most of em- they'll tell you flat-out they want the .45, because the .40 is barely an improvement over the 9 most of the time. (and no, i dont mean run of the mill officers, i mean officers that have had to use the round in action. )
The military has already laid out the specs /minimal requirements for the next service pistol- even though the program was killed for politics/financial reasons. But the spec remains- .45 acp. nothing less. Why, would they return to that old round after 20+ yrs of 9mm NATO?
Insens้s Suffer plaisir!
Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
...Mais, il n'offrait pas une r้ponse complet, ou aussi du pointe a pointe.
there seems to be a lot of discussion about the ballistics of this revolver. as with any caliber and or weapon it seems no one can ever completely agree. a lot of the discussions have gone off the original points.
i bought a taurus judge in the polymer model. had to return it to the dealer.. right out of the box the cylinder and timing would not lock up when closing the cylinder..dealer was very agreeable and replaced said gun but for a few dollars more i opted for the public defender ultralite.
kept it loaded with 000 for a month before actually firing it..after 5 rounds and ejecting spent shells the cylinder would not lock up and the hammer spring was broken .. am going back to dealer this weekend..will see what he will do about this issue because i do not want another taurus..my take on this is that taurus has tried to meet the demand for these revolvers and quality control is lacking..
i think that several of you are correct about the sales hype .
the smaller framed judges have a lot of recoil ,,unless you shoot a lot and are used to it,,i think in an extreme situation follow up shots would be difficult for the average person..just saying..
also most forums/sights including taurus point out that the .410 slug is not very accurate in this revolver,,hence the .45 colt
also most of the judges are too big for cc and the smaller frames have considerable recoil.. smaller grips..also i have a s/w 500 and am used to recoil..
my only reason to posting on this thread is to point out my personal experience with this revolver..you can argue about the rest ..
To do real damage to an adversary you need to first, get sufficient penetration, and second have a fairly large wound cavity.
The .410 certainly makes a wide wound cavity. I think the penetration is quite limited, except at very close range.
I will Google ".410 shot in ballistic gelatin" to see what results are out there.
Also, S & W makes a similar weapon (but of much higher quality) called "The Governor".
Under what conditions, exactly?
Originally Posted by Packard
With what load?
And from where did you get the information?
As I understand it, when shot from a pistol:
The .410 slug load neither penetrates well nor makes a "wide wound cavity."
The .410 buckshot load does not penetrate well, but rather spreads its shot quite widely and ineffectually.
The .410 birdshot load neither penetrates nor makes any sort of "wound cavity" at all.
Buy the Taurus, and with the money you save take a class in pistol whipping. When the gun locks up trade it in for a 16 oz hammer. That way the decision to buy the Taurus won't be a total loss.
That was good Steve m1911A1
I'm sure there's a place for guns like the Judge, but all I can see is "collateral damage" from a shotshell. I would be nice for shooting .45LC though.
They are sloppy crackle cakes made of some kind of peanut brittle alloy. Remove the side plate to reveal the marshmallow filling. Mine had a crunchy chocolate filling inside. I will never buy another one unless they throw in a glass of milk.
Its a great gun, SD i don't know about. I like using it for when I am gathering goodies like wild artichokes, snakes like the undergrowth alot. the .410 comes on handy for a quick shot at a few feet. if you were going to use it for SD, keep the .45s loaded and for what I use it for .410's
Originally Posted by Vector16
But do you eat the snakes you kill?
Do you know why we aren't knee-deep in rats, mice, and voles?
It's because snakes eat 'em.
The only reasons to kill a snake would be because it threatens you in such a way as to keep you from retreating, or because you're hungry for snake meat.
Tired of hearing all of this penetration nonsense. While it is important in a single projectile not so much in multiple. You can hit someone in the face with a blackjack filled with lead shot and get no penetration at all but they are going down for the count. I am not counting on how deep it penetrates. I am counting on stopping the attacker. While penetration is important to reach vital organs I am looking to stop the attacker not necessairly reach vital organs. The only sure stoppers instantly are the femer bone or a brain box shot or sever the spinal cord. I know of a lot of cases with wounds of the lungs and or heart and the attcker keeps on coming stabs you to death or beats you to a pulp then dies. However a face full of birdshot is a stopper. Also 7 yards is quite a long distance in a home. you are talking 21 feet. Sooo...just saying. A judge is a stopper, not an instant garanteed killer, nothing is. Also a great penetration round is not much good if it misses, and a lot of people under stress are not great shots at 7 yards with a single projectile weapon...however with some scatter shot...well I hope you see my point.
DAD ,(my son speaking)
A shot to the brain, heart,or lungs always stops the attacker. Certain animals have smaller brains making the target smaller.
My jaw hit the floor how he would even say or know this. He was playing his Wii video games..oh boy,
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