Originally Posted by stormbringer

I can't understand why people hate this gun so much. I saw past the gimmick and took the time to explore the options available, a couple thousand rounds later, I have no regrets, and no doubt.

Sorry to joke about the Judge, I'm sure it is the right choice for you, and that's really the important thing right? I would most definitely not want to take a blast of .410 like your target shows. Is there much muzzle flash in a darkened area? Anyway, apologies for being a smart a%%. i'd say that it won't happen again, but it probably will. Regards, Eli

Quote Originally Posted by stormbringer:
"I can't understand why people hate this gun so much..."

It isn't hate. It's experience, practicality, and the ability to see through the advertising hype.
The Judge seems at first glance to be a good idea, but then, if you examine its abilities carefully, rationally, and with a critical mind, you will find that it can't possibly do what Taurus's advertising says it will do.
Buckshot from the .410 shell does indeed tear up paper targets, but paper targets are not the same as goblins. Further, slug loads from the Judge are inferior to .45 "Long" Colt cartridges.
But if you accept these facts and then decide to shoot .45 "Long" Colt loads, why didn't you buy a .45 "Long" Colt pistol in the first place?

The Judge is a poor, impractical solution to a serious, real-world problem.

Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1

Sounds good, but it just isn't true.
The real fight stopper is penetration, specifically into seriously important organs like the heart, the aortic arch, or the brain. But the buckshot that comes out of a .410 case, particularly through a short barrel, has neither the mass nor the velocity to penetrate to any meaningful degree. Even the .410 slug is less than competent in this regard.
All the Judge will do is create superficial wounds which, although painful and perhaps even blinding, will not stop an oncoming BG. It might even make him that much madder.

Welcome back Steve. Thank you for your thoughts on the Judge's effectiveness. I guess if it were me I'd tuck a little Stoeger 20 Bore under the bed if I wanted to use a shotgun. Do you think two rounds of 3" 20 Ga. mag 00 buckshot would work? (I would have a 5 round cartridge belt on the stock for reloads, and my bedside Beretta 9mm for backup). I like the handiness of the 20 over the 12. Sorry I am drifting a bit, but we ARE talking shotgun performance here right?
Eli

Eli

Well.I go by what I see.I don't know how deep this converts to flesh
but I wanted to go to as short a barrel as possible to show it.This is
just a little derringer with the 000 buckshot.As you can also see in the video,
he is away from target.YouTube - Water penetration test: Federal Premium .410 000 Buckshot 4 pellet in a Bong Arms Derringer
Superficial?Whatever.I "don't" accept hear say.I accept facts.
This is just what the 000 buckshot will do.The slug is awesome,however I stick
to what I "KNOW" will take out the B/G.

Well, Eli, 20ga is better than .410, but I hesitate to say how much better. Certainly, the longer shotgun barrel will permit the 20ga load to achieve more useful velocity than a pistol barrel would, and "power" (or whatever you prefer to call it) is a function of both mass and velocity.

Given the choice, I'd definitely rather have a 20ga shotgun than a .410 pistol.

Originally Posted by bayhawk2

Well.I go by what I see.I don't know how deep this converts to flesh
but I wanted to go to as short a barrel as possible to show it.This is
just a little derringer with the 000 buckshot.As you can also see in the video,
he is away from target.YouTube - Water penetration test: Federal Premium .410 000 Buckshot 4 pellet in a Bong Arms Derringer

OK, let's analyze this.
Triple-ought buckshot measures 0.36", and each weighs about 70 grains. Four of them total 280 grains. Google suggests a muzzle velocity of 1,200fps.
One .45 ACP RN lead bullet weighs 230 grains and, in the classic loading, goes out at 850fps. The .45 "Long" Colt has about the same ballistics (but a heavier bullet).
But you have to consider each 000 pellet as a separate missile. That's 70 grains of lead at 1,200fps, taken four times.
So tell me: Which will shock the system more, which will penetrate further, and which will do more fight-stopping damage, a 70gr pellet at 1,200fps, or a 230gr bullet at 850fps?

You prefer the four 36-caliber, 70gr pellets. I prefer the 45-caliber, 230gr bullet.
Chaque'un à son gôut.

Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
You prefer the four 36-caliber, 70gr pellets. I prefer the 45-caliber, 230gr bullet.
[I

Chaque'un à son gôut.[/I]

Oui Stephane, de gustibus non est disputandum!
Elijah Wolfe

Originally Posted by EliWolfe

Oui Stephane, de gustibus non est disputandum!
Elijah Wolfe

Some people mix metaphors, but you, Eli, mix languages.

Veritas simplex oratio est, say I.

...And, oh, that I could play as well as Stephane Grappelli!

Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1

Some people mix metaphors, but you, Eli, mix languages.

Veritas simplex oratio est, say I.

...And, oh, that I could play as well as Stephane Grappelli!

You one funny hombre Steve. Hey, didn't they name the grappelling hook after that guy?
Adios mon ami, I must cease and desist before the drifter authorities arrive.
Eli

I own one. It shoots .45 Colt without any problems, but .410 shotgun freezes the cylinder. I'm not sure if it is the gun or the ammo.

Originally Posted by zebramochaman

I own one. It shoots .45 Colt without any problems, but .410 shotgun freezes the cylinder. I'm not sure if it is the gun or the ammo.

I have been reliably informed that the cause of this particular problem may be that the cylinder is too loose, in a front-to-back direction. The solution, if that's the case, is to place a thin shim at the front of the cylinder, on the cylinder's axis. (This is a job for a gunsmith—or for Taurus, under warranty.)

Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1

Sounds good, but it just isn't true.
The real fight stopper is penetration, specifically into seriously important organs like the heart, the aortic arch, or the brain. But the buckshot that comes out of a .410 case, particularly through a short barrel, has neither the mass nor the velocity to penetrate to any meaningful degree. Even the .410 slug is less than competent in this regard.
All the Judge will do is create superficial wounds which, although painful and perhaps even blinding, will not stop an oncoming BG. It might even make him that much madder.

Wow. the internet myths just keep coming...25 acp, birdshot, fmj, all have their myths about what they will or can or wont/cant do.

I had to drop a guy with a single-shot, NEF .410 about 13 yrs ago, when he was attempting a home-invasion. Busted open my door,despite my calls to him to leave, Im armed. They NEF was the only thing I had in the house at the time. Soon as he came through the door- I fired from 15 feet with the #4 load I had in it-straight into his face. DOA. Instantly.

Try this- #4 or #6 shot in .410 , 25 meters, 4 inches of pine 1 inch of steel for target.. then come back and lets us know how "superficial" you think the wound would be.
A few months back, I tested .410 and 12 on a bunch of typical household materials I had around from an old out-building that we took down. #4, #6 and 000 in .410, and 00 in 12.
Only #6 shot failed to go all the way through everything. Open cyl, on both shotguns- no chokes.
Biggest spread of any of the shots was #6 @ 25 meters- out to about 11 inches. everything else patterened into a spread u can cover with your palm. I tested this because of all the interweb debates and bad advice folks give each other about 00 vs. birdshot for home-defense, penetration of walls etc. Make no mistake about it- #4, #6 shot are going to penetrate almost everything 00 or 000 do. Little Suzie 3 rooms down is no more safe with birdshot.
Dont take anyone's word on it though, try for yourself-seeing IS beleiving.

That said though- the Judge would be an ideal snake gun- (get a lot of Rattlesnake/Cottonmouth here). Wouldnt hesitate to use it for human pests if needed either.

Originally Posted by j4l

Wow. the internet myths just keep coming...25 acp, birdshot, fmj, all have their myths about what they will or can or wont/cant do.

No offense, but the fact that you consider Taurus to be in any way, shape or form a quality firearm kind of detracts from any info you're posting about load data. Taurus is the Yugo of the gun world, sure it'll work... right up until you need it to.

Originally Posted by zhurdan

No offense, but the fact that you consider Taurus to be in any way, shape or form a quality firearm kind of detracts from any info you're posting about load data. Taurus is the Yugo of the gun world, sure it'll work... right up until you need it to.

And brand snobbery most certainly lends credibility...? If reading-comprehension were a skill of yours, you'd note I hadnt fired any of the loads I mentioned from the Taurus- it was an NEF in .410, and a Remington 870 for the 12... The load data holds. The tool itself, is of a design ideal for the task mentioned.

As for credibility of Taurus owners/users, I suppose you deem yourself credible enough to discredit everyone on this thread page? Tell us, plz, oh guru of gun wisdom, what brought you to the Taurus brand pages with your extensive free time?

Judge not, that ye may not be Judged.
Eli

Originally Posted by bayhawk2

Well.I go by what I see.I don't know how deep this converts to flesh
but I wanted to go to as short a barrel as possible to show it.This is
just a little derringer with the 000 buckshot.As you can also see in the video,
he is away from target.YouTube - Water penetration test: Federal Premium .410 000 Buckshot 4 pellet in a Bong Arms Derringer
Superficial?Whatever.I "don't" accept hear say.I accept facts.
This is just what the 000 buckshot will do.The slug is awesome,however I stick
to what I "KNOW" will take out the B/G.

Exactly. Both my own experiences by using, and testing. as well as the dozens of folks Ive seen brought into the E/R I worked in for years. Lot of internet "experts" regurgitate a lot of myths,w/out any of the above, and before you know it folks are making potentially life/death decisions on what they decide to buy and use on such nonsense. Graveyard's are full of folks that lived according to old wive's tales...

Um, I have to assume that many of those E/R patients lived through their experiences. Correct?

The Bond Arms .410 derringer, even loaded with slugs, won't do as much to instantly stop a fight as will my six-shot AMT .45 Backup pocket pistol.
For one thing, it's more than likely that you'll get off only one derringer shot, since you will have to manually re-cock for the second. For another, you will have to be shooting from very, very close range (that is, inches not feet), which means that you would be in jeopardy from the BG's fists, not to mention any weapon he might be accessing.
Tactics, therefore, will be a deciding factor. The Bond Arms derringer puts you at a gigantic tactical disadvantage, while a small, multi-shot, semi-auto, .45 ACP pistol permits rapid-fire response and repeated, effective, fight-stopping hits at any distance from bad-breath to 20 yards, including while maneuvering evasively.

There is a tremendous difference between the better ballistics of a long-barrel NEF shotgun, and the ineffective ballistics of any short-barrel pistol, for instance the Judge or the Bond Arms derringer. Don't make the mistake of believing that the two are equivalent, just because they fire the same load. It just ain't so.

Originally Posted by j4l

And brand snobbery most certainly lends credibility...? If reading-comprehension were a skill of yours, you'd note I hadnt fired any of the loads I mentioned from the Taurus- it was an NEF in .410, and a Remington 870 for the 12... The load data holds. The tool itself, is of a design ideal for the task mentioned.

As for credibility of Taurus owners/users, I suppose you deem yourself credible enough to discredit everyone on this thread page? Tell us, plz, oh guru of gun wisdom, what brought you to the Taurus brand pages with your extensive free time?

Hahaa.. this is truly funny. I think we found Gecko!

It's not about brand snobbery, it's about detailed accounts of Taurus' choking over and over, and as you are so fond of saying... go look it up for yourself! As far as my ability to comprehend... well, you were espousing the merits of Taurus in ANOTHER THREAD all the while, denouncing the future of the 9mm in another thread, also while spouting off the awesomeness of the .25ACP. Seriously? You think that a 9mm is crap, but nooooo, don't count out the mighty .25ACP!!! As for your assertions of going down to the local trauma center to see hoards of shooting victims... well, I'm smart enough to NOT live in an area where that occurs. Seems to me, making better decisions not only applies to your choice in weapons, but could use some work on where you live if GSW's happen with that level of frequency. Just sayin'.

As far as why I'd waste my time in the Taurus forum... well, (since you're questioning my wisdom with insults) When you come to the site, you click the gigantic "What's New?" button near the top left of the page... and guess what, it lists all the new threads on the forum. Imagine that, a tool that actually works! I read most all the threads because guns are an interest of mine, I respond when someone needs help or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. I'll let you decide which category you fall into.

Originally Posted by zhurdan

EDIT:
I read most all the threads because guns are an interest of mine, I respond when someone needs help or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. I'll let you decide which category you fall into.

+1, I really think this guy is just having us on a bit, attention seeker perhaps and look at his success!
Eli

Originally Posted by zhurdan

Hahaa.. this is truly funny. I think we found Gecko!

It's not about brand snobbery, it's about detailed accounts of Taurus' choking over and over, and as you are so fond of saying... go look it up for yourself! As far as my ability to comprehend... well, you were espousing the merits of Taurus in ANOTHER THREAD all the while, denouncing the future of the 9mm in another thread, also while spouting off the awesomeness of the .25ACP. Seriously? You think that a 9mm is crap, but nooooo, don't count out the mighty .25ACP!!! As for your assertions of going down to the local trauma center to see hoards of shooting victims... well, I'm smart enough to NOT live in an area where that occurs. Seems to me, making better decisions not only applies to your choice in weapons, but could use some work on where you live if GSW's happen with that level of frequency. Just sayin'.

As far as why I'd waste my time in the Taurus forum... well, (since you're questioning my wisdom with insults) When you come to the site, you click the gigantic "What's New?" button near the top left of the page... and guess what, it lists all the new threads on the forum. Imagine that, a tool that actually works! I read most all the threads because guns are an interest of mine, I respond when someone needs help or doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. I'll let you decide which category you fall into.

W/e. the facts are what they are. Not liking any of them does'nt make them any less a fact.
You've sure made up your mind as to what interweb mythology you choose to regurgitate, without relying on any actual personal experience or knowledge,all the while slamming another's information-without refuting a single point, of course.
Ignorance may indeed be bliss, but we have a term for folks like you. We usually call them victims. Post mortem.

Ok.. want a few threads chock full of information about their quality? (I might add, you've only added anecdotal "evidence" as well concerning your "facts".)

Taurus Quality?
(This one has about a wheelbarrow full of Taurus quality links in it - thanks Shipwreck)
Taurus' overall
Taurus Customer Support Loses Taurus a Customer Forever...
Taurus customer service

And these are just from THIS forum.

As for personal experience, I'd say I have more than most. I actually train with my weapons, not plink cans on the weekends. I go train with experts in the field, I shoot all year long and as of 3 months ago I'm starting to formally train people. Amazing, those assumptions you made about me as well, huh?

I've faced the devil and guess what, my training and dedication to the pistol brought me thru unscathed. I'd say that's a might bit better than say... I dunno, getting shot in the hand.

Anyways, I should have remembered the primary rule of forum posting... "Never argue with idiots, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[QUOTE=zhurdan EDIT Anyways, I should have remembered the primary rule of forum posting... "Never argue with idiots, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." [/QUOTE]

+1

Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...


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[QUOTE=j4l;228753]Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...