Pistol Grip Ignorance

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    1. #1
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      Pistol Grip Ignorance

      In the combat grip pioneered by Brian Enos and Rob Leatham do both wrists roll or cant forward in pistol shooting or is it only the supporting wrist?

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      Re: Pistol Grip Ignorance

      Only the support hand, if you roll the firing hand you have issues regarding trigger finger placement and natural point of aim....with the exception of "free pistols" which are all totally different than what Enos and Letham are shooting

    3. #3
      rex
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      Are you using the double squeeze with this hold?I thought it was Jerry Barnett that invented it at a match he and Leatham were at,and he showed it to Rob the next day.He discovered it searching for a better hold,put his thumb on top of the safety and noticed how much room opened up on the grip.Rolling his support wrist gave more purchase on the grip to take advantage of it,he squeezed his strong hand front to back and the support hand into the grip panels.It works quite well.

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      I think people could argue over who came up with it for days, so lets not even go down that road.

      Here'a a video of Todd Jarrett discussong grip...skip to 1:03


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      rex
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      I think I misspoke there ,I bet it was Todd and not Jerry,thanks for the post.It's been a long time since I've been in the scene and read the article about it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
      I think I misspoke there ,I bet it was Todd and not Jerry,thanks for the post.It's been a long time since I've been in the scene and read the article about it.

      Like I said, it could be debated who came up with it.

      If I had to make a wager it would be that someone else could have came up with it, but Enos was the first to put it in writing.

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      Fist fire with D.R. Middlebrooks.

    9. #9
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      Make Ready with Paul Howe: Tac Pistol Operator

      Go to about 5:50


      It sounds like he cants forward the firing hand wrist.

      What you say makes sense, but a senior member of my pistol club keeps telling me to cant both wrists.

      Cheers

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Glock12 View Post
      Make Ready with Paul Howe: Tac Pistol Operator

      Go to about 5:50


      It sounds like he cants forward the firing hand wrist.

      What you say makes sense, but a senior member of my pistol club keeps telling me to cant both wrists.

      Cheers
      No, what he's saying is "Lock" the wrists.

      Take you gun, empty it and get the high firm pistol grip and then cam your wrist and watch what it does to your muzzle.

      Here's an article on it: The Combat Handgun Grip - Handguns
      “I started experimenting with my right-hand grip by only pulling front to rear with my fingers and just letting my right thumb rest on top of the thumb safety with no downward pressure. Then I noticed how resting my right thumb on top of the thumb safety opened up the entire side of the left grip panel, and I wondered, ‘What if I just put my left hand there?’ I rotated my wrist forward and pointed my thumb straight ahead, and that got my left thumb off the side of the gun. With the support hand I just squeezed left to right. So I wound up with front-to-rear pressure with the right hand and side-to-side pressure with the left hand, and that gave me very consistent, even pressure all the way around the gun.

      Read more: The Combat Handgun Grip - Handguns

      and in "Practical Shooting - Beyond Fundamentals" you won't read anything about canting the firing hand. Watch any video of Enos, Letham, Jarrett, etc. and you won't see a cammed firing hand.



      Right @ 6:43 of the Howe video you can see his firing hand is not canted. Ditto @ 15:43





      Here's some picturea of Letham



      No canted firing hand.




      Again, no canted firing hand.


      You'll see some mild variation of wrist to arm angle, and you'll have that depending on the grip angle of the firearm and in the case of pictures we don't have the advantage of knowing what exactly is being aimed at.


      Again, take your gun, make sure it's unloaded and grip it and experiment on your own, you should see what I'm talking about pretty instantly. If you try to cam the firing hand in simlar fashion to the support hand, your natural point of aim is going to be at the floor a couple of feet in front of you.



      Not the best photo in the world, but it's larger and I all ready have it....




      Yours truly, no cammed firing hand. **Note, muzzle appears low as my "target" while sighting in was below normal line of sight**


    11. #11
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      Thanks very much VAMarine!

      In relation to wrist locking a moderator on Brian Enos forum posted this:

      Don't lock any joint when shooting. Any locked joint just transfers recoil to the next one, so instead of all your joints working together to absorb the recoil, you focus it into one place. It also tends to increase overall tension, usually if you lock your wrists, your elbows will be rigid too, now all the recoil goes to the shoulder where it is slower to recover from.
      Keep in mind that while less flip is desirable, really the goal of recoil control is to precisely return the gun to point of aim....regardless of how high it lifted. In other words, recoil control is bidirectional, most see it as one direction; holding the gun down, when they should be working on a grip and stance that allows the gun to return on its own. When I shoot my best Bill drills for example, the gun really seems to move a lot, but always returns to point of aim with no perceived effort. It just drives back to the PoA.

    12. #12
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      Re: Pistol Grip Ignorance

      I've found that there's a difference in taught technique between competition shooters and "tactical" shooters, will elaborate more later...

    13. #13
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      Re: Pistol Grip Ignorance

      I've found that serious competitive shooters/instructors favor the not locked wrist (keep in mind that new shooters with low experience may need to focus on "locking" the wrist to prevent limp wristing the gun) / not locked...in other words slighly bent elbows to help better control/mitigate recoil. This does work and when shooting a lot of major power factor loads is easier on the body.

      It's also easier to run a gun in this fashion with some of the lighter competition loads. But you've got to develop the skills and ability to to ensure you've got the right mix of control to keep the gun functioning while not being too rigid.

      Tactical shooters/instructors will still go with the locked out elbows/wrists for a couple of reasons.

      1: If you limp wrist in a competition, you end up blowing a couple of seconds and end up in lower place...in a shoot out if you limp wrist, you end up dead.

      2: While in a shootout, your going to be pushing that gun out as far as you can (provided its even possible to reach full extension) and your elbows are going to lock.

      3: When searching around corners the slightly bent elbows are bad as they will "lead" you around the corner and announce your presence.


      So if you're going to be shooting a lot of competition only stuff the loosey goosey stuff is good but if your're looking to shoot from a defensive/tactical standpoint you're going to want to be a little more rigid, unless you're shooting/training enough to to alter techniqes on demand and not revert to the wrong one by default.

    14. #14
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      Thumbs up

      That makes a lot of sense thanks again for all the information.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Glock12 View Post
      That makes a lot of sense thanks again for all the information.
      You're welcome.

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