Great post!

We would all like to be prepared for that encounter, we have "My gunfight" inscribed on our brain it is what we prepare for. We have all heard 3 shots in 3 seconds from 3 feet, well I have bad news. While those statistics are real, they are from gunfights that cops died in. First of all how do we get "Average" well, we throw them all in a pot, boil em down and see what we get. The first thing to understand is that if you get into a gunfight it is already a mathematical anomaly, so now we are going to prepare for "average".

Do you want to survive the fight? Of course you do. You must dominate the fight. In order to dominate, you must first recognize that "Hey, this guy is attacking me!". You must seize and maintain the initiative with surprise and violence of action, which comes from military doctrine of, surprise, initiative and violence of action.. There are some very bad people out there, some freak just killed and dismembered a little girl in Denver. Are you prepared to meet that kind of evil face to face?

Of course this is my opinion so take it for what it is worth. Carry enough gun. The only reliable way to stop a violent attack is to hit the CNS with a decisive blow, that means upper third of the spine or the brain. Head shots are iffy at best, to hit the spine you must first punch through the BG. The wiz bang HP that dumps its energy and does not penetrate probably will not do the trick. Provided that you just delivered several "well placed" shots be prepared, the BG may not stop for several seconds. There was a BG shot thru the heart with a 230 Grn 45 ACP GD who ran 3 blocks before expiring not long ago. There is no such thing as a magic bullet.

Master your carry gun. Can you run it without conscious thought? Can you hit that 3"X5" target at 10 yards ? 15? Yes it takes practice, it takes commitment. I recently realized that buying the gun was the inexpensive part of the equation.

Yeah: Two great posts!

In addition, I suggest my own mantra:
"Practice, practice, practice; think, think, think; practice, practice, practice."
(For "think," you could substitute "analyze.")

Great post and responses.

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Great post!

We would all like to be prepared for that encounter, we have "My gunfight" inscribed on our brain it is what we prepare for. We have all heard 3 shots in 3 seconds from 3 feet, well I have bad news. While those statistics are real, they are from gunfights that cops died in. First of all how do we get "Average" well, we throw them all in a pot, boil em down and see what we get. The first thing to understand is that if you get into a gunfight it is already a mathematical anomaly, so now we are going to prepare for "average".

Do you want to survive the fight? Of course you do. You must dominate the fight. In order to dominate, you must first recognize that "Hey, this guy is attacking me!". You must seize and maintain the initiative with surprise and violence of action, which comes from military doctrine of, surprise, initiative and violence of action.. There are some very bad people out there, some freak just killed and dismembered a little girl in Denver. Are you prepared to meet that kind of evil face to face?

Of course this is my opinion so take it for what it is worth. Carry enough gun. The only reliable way to stop a violent attack is to hit the CNS with a decisive blow, that means upper third of the spine or the brain. Head shots are iffy at best, to hit the spine you must first punch through the BG. The wiz bang HP that dumps its energy and does not penetrate probably will not do the trick. Provided that you just delivered several "well placed" shots be prepared, the BG may not stop for several seconds. There was a BG shot thru the heart with a 230 Grn 45 ACP GD who ran 3 blocks before expiring not long ago. There is no such thing as a magic bullet.

Master your carry gun. Can you run it without conscious thought? Can you hit that 3"X5" target at 10 yards ? 15? Yes it takes practice, it takes commitment. I recently realized that buying the gun was the inexpensive part of the equation.

Great addition to the thread. You are so right about the stats of a gun fight, throw them out, and prepare for the BG thats not in the stats. It is our luck, that will be the BG we will have to deal with...

Good posts that give me a lot to think about. Moving from the abstract to the possibilities of concrete reality are certainly important, whether in the concept of home defense or concealed carry. We certainly need to consider what it ultimately means to have possession of a loaded weapon.
One point I have not seen mentioned (I would put it under 'mindset') is to also be looking for a way to remove yourself from the dangerous situation if it can be done without putting you or your loved ones in any more danger. Evil abounds, and you (and I) need situational awareness and to be prepared to extricate ourselves from danger, using whatever force and actions are necessary. I just thought that it should also be explicitly mentioned that at times the old saying holds true: "the better part of valor is discretion".

Too many people get weighed down by dogmatic thinking. We must be receptive to things that may challenge our thinking.

Absolutely Steve, the only rub there is you CAN practice bad habits and tactics which are counter productive.

Originally Posted by Nanuk

...[Y]ou CAN practice bad habits and tactics which are counter productive.

...That's why the "think, think, think" part is included.

(In truth, I prefer "analyze" to "think," but "think" is more all-inclusive, and doesn't make it seem like some kind of academic exercise.)

I have to disagree with the part about .22 being only for petites or elderly...on another forum, a member posted about results from a test firing many different handgun calibers and the .22 stingers penetrated 8 inches and expanded to 1.6 times their original size. Thats some serious damage. As i recall, you guys were done arguing with him at that point.

Additionally, why would manufacturers make handguns in .22lr if they werent sufficient for self defense? I see no .17 cal handguns, and a vast majority of gun owners own .17 for target/varmint shooting.

Originally Posted by Frogger

I have to disagree with the part about .22 being only for petites or elderly...on another forum, a member posted about results from a test firing many different handgun calibers and the .22 stingers penetrated 8 inches and expanded to 1.6 times their original size. Thats some serious damage. As i recall, you guys were done arguing with him at that point.

Additionally, why would manufacturers make handguns in .22lr if they werent sufficient for self defense? I see no .17 cal handguns, and a vast majority of gun owners own .17 for target/varmint shooting.

Unfortunately, the "magic number" for penetration is 12" last time I checked. Not that it wouldn't do some damage, but there are other things to consider. What is the target wearing, how many layers of it, angle of shot to the body, deflection from bones due to that angle, etc.

Not to mention that 1.6 times .22 is barely the starting size of 9mm bullets who's expansions have greatly increased over the years. There's just way too much to take into account for me personally to count on a .22, but that's just me. Personally, I've always said, carry as big a caliber that you can handle with sufficient magazine capacity to account for degradation of skills under stress and always, ALWAYS carry spare magazine(s)!

Regarding shooting someone until they're dead, or they should be dead... I recall seeing a study stating that close to 80% of gun shot uhhh, victims (not the right word in the case of the aggressor getting shot but oh well) survive the ordeal. Mainly because they aren't CNS shots nor do they have sufficient penetration to do the job. The human body is pretty amazing in that regard, but if you think about it, surface area wise, even a .45 cal bullet isn't covering a whole lot of area in relation to the human body, even if it does reach 12" of penetration. Hence the need for multiple shots on target.

PS, not advocating shooting someone beyond their ability to be a threat.

Then you can call it the equivalent end result of a 9mm luger FMJ. The myth that clothing will deflect a .22lr round is pretty well busted. CCI Stingers are rated at 1700 fps, most .45 moves at under 800 from the muzzle. Personal preference is always key to deciding what you carry. I prefer a larger round due to my hand size, but i can definitely defend myself with my Ruger Sr22.

Keep in mind also, the rule of 3s, the typical gunfight will happen at 3 feet, an average of 3 rounds will be fired by each and will be over in about 3 seconds. You'd be a fool to think that 3 almost .39 inch holes in your lungs wouldNT be likely fatal and definitely incapacitating at that range. Not to mention the shredded organs from the fragmentation, I'd say that myth has run its course, now, wouldnt you?

And yes, if youre trying to kill the person, a handgun probably isnt the best option. Shotguns trump all in that regard. I believe you meant "shoot until the threat is stopped". sometimes words fail me too.

If a .45 reaches 12 inches of penetration in me, you shot the wrong person lol

Originally Posted by Frogger

Then you can call it the equivalent end result of a 9mm luger FMJ. The myth that clothing will deflect a .22lr round is pretty well busted. CCI Stingers are rated at 1700 fps, most .45 moves at under 800 from the muzzle. Personal preference is always key to deciding what you carry. I prefer a larger round due to my hand size, but i can definitely defend myself with my Ruger Sr22.

Keep in mind also, the rule of 3s, the typical gunfight will happen at 3 feet, an average of 3 rounds will be fired by each and will be over in about 3 seconds. You'd be a fool to think that 3 almost .39 inch holes in your lungs wouldNT be likely fatal and definitely incapacitating at that range. Not to mention the shredded organs from the fragmentation, I'd say that myth has run its course, now, wouldnt you?

And yes, if youre trying to kill the person, a handgun probably isnt the best option. Shotguns trump all in that regard. I believe you meant "shoot until the threat is stopped". sometimes words fail me too.

You are right about the holes in the lungs, they could kill and individual. The 1700 fps is not out of a pistol, that would be a rifle. The .22 is lethal. My question to you is this, are the 3 shots to the chest enough to incapacitate someone? In a SD incident we look to stop the threat, .22 are not known for stopping the threat. They will kill, but how long does the BG stay alive and remain a threat?

I just said "yes," Mr. Balls. .22s are very effective. Like tricolordad says, bless him, the human body doesnt like to be penetrated. In regards to the velocity... take it out of my SR22s 3.5 inch barrel, what do you lose? About 400fps. Still waaaay faster. And yes, you wouldnt argue the success of the M9 inflicting collapsed lungs on a terrorist, so whats the difference when the hole in the back of the lung is that same diameter? He lung will collapse, air will begin to collect outside the lung and it will still collapse. I'm failing to see the logic of your argument here, effecively, you arent making one and this is off topic. Feel free to pm me if youd like to discuss it further.

Great post man,you're on a roll today.

Originally Posted by Frogger

I just said "yes," Mr. Balls. .22s are very effective. Like tricolordad says, bless him, the human body doesnt like to be penetrated. In regards to the velocity... take it out of my SR22s 3.5 inch barrel, what do you lose? About 400fps. Still waaaay faster. And yes, you wouldnt argue the success of the M9 inflicting collapsed lungs on a terrorist, so whats the difference when the hole in the back of the lung is that same diameter? He lung will collapse, air will begin to collect outside the lung and it will still collapse. I'm failing to see the logic of your argument here, effecively, you arent making one and this is off topic. Feel free to pm me if youd like to discuss it further.

Its not off topic, I bring the .22 in the write up. So it is on topic. Which round are we talking about now. Just for clarification. The .22 can be lethal never said it wasnt. The .22 makes a bad SD round for the simple fact the BG can still plunge that knife into your chest after you have shot him 3 times. While other weapons like the 9 and above have a better chance to STOP the threat. Sorry that you got confused Tri Color....BTW welcome.....

I am not tricolordad, though I may be a relative. Since you insist on going on and on, I'm game for it. Provide data, actual facts, provimg that .22 wont stop the threat in 3 rounds. I will be waiting.

Thank you, rex, knowlege is key.

Originally Posted by Frogger

Then you can call it the equivalent end result of a 9mm luger FMJ.

I wouldn't call it that, but I would recommend against anyone carrying FMJ ammo in a defensive pistol.

The myth that clothing will deflect a .22lr round is pretty well busted.

I never said that clothing deflects a .22lr. I was implying that if a bullet, regardless of size/mass/velocity travels thru something, it is reduced in capacity. This is directly related to velocity and mass, and also by cross section. If it has to go thru something first, it will lose penetration. It may be a small number, but when the .22lr doesn't even reach the FBI recommended penetration of 12", well, you get what I'm saying, I'm sure.

CCI Stingers are rated at 1700 fps, most .45 moves at under 800 from the muzzle.

Not sure what .45 you're using, but most defensive loads are pushing 1k fps.

Personal preference is always key to deciding what you carry. I prefer a larger round due to my hand size, but i can definitely defend myself with my Ruger Sr22.

Earlier you mentioned "Additionally, why would manufacturers make handguns in .22lr if they werent sufficient for self defense?". I'd say the bulk of .22 pistols aren't defensive pistols, they are generally target pistols, plinkers, trainers, etc.

Keep in mind also, the rule of 3s, the typical gunfight will happen at 3 feet, an average of 3 rounds will be fired by each and will be over in about 3 seconds. You'd be a fool to think that 3 almost .39 inch holes in your lungs wouldNT be likely fatal and definitely incapacitating at that range. Not to mention the shredded organs from the fragmentation, I'd say that myth has run its course, now, wouldnt you?

You're right, FBI statistics are all made up. I'm no fool, but I'm also no ER Doctor and I'm assuming you aren't either, so unless you have first hand experience, I'd recommend reading up on it.

And yes, if youre trying to kill the person, a handgun probably isnt the best option. Shotguns trump all in that regard. I believe you meant "shoot until the threat is stopped". sometimes words fail me too.

Words didn't fail me at all. If you re-read it, I clearly said at the end "PS, not advocating shooting someone beyond their ability to be a threat. " sometimes comprehension fails me too.

If a .45 reaches 12 inches of penetration in me, you shot the wrong person lol

I prefer to not have to shoot anyone at all.

Originally Posted by Frogger

I am not tricolordad, though I may be a relative. Since you insist on going on and on, I'm game for it. Provide data, actual facts, provimg that .22 wont stop the threat in 3 rounds. I will be waiting.

Thank you, rex, knowlege is key.

Last I new, No police agency, no military carrys a .22lr as a side arm. I do not need anymore proof than that.

There are two words that keep coming up whenever this topic appears.

Lethality and Incapacitation.

Yes a .22 will kill someone, a .17 HMR will kill someone, a knitting needle will kill someone the question is how long will it take?

You can shoot someone in the chest 3 or 12 times in the chest with a .22 and unless it hits something vital he is going to keep coming. Will he bleed out later? Probably.

In regards to incapacitation you can shoot someone in the knee with a .22 and it may incapacitate or slow there movement but they can keep on coming.

Can a .22 work? Sure, but there are so many better choices even from the .32, .380 and so on but if all you have is a .22 use it.

Originally Posted by tacman605

There are two words that keep coming up whenever this topic appears.

Lethality and Incapacitation.

Yes a .22 will kill someone, a .17 HMR will kill someone, a knitting needle will kill someone the question is how long will it take?

You can shoot someone in the chest 3 or 12 times in the chest with a .22 and unless it hits something vital he is going to keep coming. Will he bleed out later? Probably.

In regards to incapacitation you can shoot someone in the knee with a .22 and it may incapacitate or slow there movement but they can keep on coming.

Can a .22 work? Sure, but there are so many better choices even from the .32, .380 and so on but if all you have is a .22 use it.

Pretty much.

This is why penetration depth is important for defensive rounds. Unless you can get to the CNS, you can't GET a CNS hit. (Although, I wouldn't go as far as saying .32 or .380 are better choices, but they are better than nothing, as is a .22, but that doesn't make them better )

CNS shots are the only real way to immediately incapacitate someone. Anything other than that depends on the bad guys willingness to stay in the fight.

Originally Posted by tacman605

There are two words that keep coming up whenever this topic appears.

Lethality and Incapacitation.

Yes a .22 will kill someone, a .17 HMR will kill someone, a knitting needle will kill someone the question is how long will it take?

You can shoot someone in the chest 3 or 12 times in the chest with a .22 and unless it hits something vital he is going to keep coming. Will he bleed out later? Probably.

In regards to incapacitation you can shoot someone in the knee with a .22 and it may incapacitate or slow there movement but they can keep on coming.

Can a .22 work? Sure, but there are so many better choices even from the .32, .380 and so on but if all you have is a .22 use it.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Originally Posted by Frogger

...[W]hy would manufacturers make handguns in .22lr if they werent sufficient for self defense?...

OK, and then why would manufacturers make airsoft guns, if they weren't sufficient for self defense?

The mere fact that someone makes a kind of gun does not qualify it as being sufficient for self defense.

Lots of .22 rimfire guns, both rifles and pistols, are made for target shooting use. Lots of people use them for that purpose. But those same people switch to a somewhat more powerful cartridge, for self-defense purposes.
Besides, it's really, really difficult to conceal a .22 rifle.

(Your question about .22s, in rhetorical terms, is called "setting up a straw man.")

Originally Posted by Frogger

Thank you, rex, knowlege is key.

Sorry for the confusion man,I had to leave and only caught 2 replies and then sent that to Harry.

My view on this gig,I would not recommend a 22,but it is nothing to discount.The problem lies in application,and that means you'll know you can use it as it needs to be.Well,if you ain't psychic,you don't know what situation you'll be in.22s can penetrate,but they also ricochet easily off bone at slower speeds from shorty barrels.The forehead is not the spot,as alot think,bad angle and it's a ricoche with one pissed off dude.Good BUG,but I'd only carry primary if there was no other choice.

Zhurdan. You are correct in that a lot of this depends on the bad guy.

I have seen the human body take a tremendous amount of abuse and keep on working. You have to think of a handgun as the ultimate pain compliance device but what hurts me may not affect you in the same way and vis versa. You either have to cause them so much pain that they don't want to play anymore or mechanically break them so they can't play anymore.

In regards to the .32 or .380 being better, they are better than a .22 or better than nothing and I are the minimum for self defense use.