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  1. #1
    JeffWard's Avatar
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    Carry Gun Choices???

    I own two great carry guns... My XD45C, and my XD9SC.

    Reading a million, maybe less, posts here on carry preferences, I did a little experiment this week:

    - I ran two man silhouettes out to 7M, in side-by-side ranges.
    - I had a friend with a stopwatch (not a shot-timer) time me from "draw" (gun at side due to no holster-work rules) to 4 shots.
    - I raised the gun, fired two shots COM, panned to target 2, and two more shots COM.
    - I checked total time for 4 shots, and total score.
    - I tested both guns 3 times, alternating.
    - I was a tiny bit faster, and MUCH more accurate with the 3" XD9SC than I was with the 4" XD45 Compact. ALL 3 STRINGS.
    - My second shot accuracy made all the difference with the reduced recoil.

    All but one of my shots was "kill-zone" accurate. I yanked one with the XD45C to the side. But even factoring an "average hit" in for the yank, my groups were better with the 9mm.

    I'll challenge anyone here with a carry gun choice to try this challenge. My XD9SC will be getting more belt time now... More testing to come.

    Mike B... Yeah... I know...


    JeffWard

  2. #2
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
    Mike B... Yeah... I know...
    In the interests of not embarrassing my friend JeffWard, I will not post my times for this drill.

    Seriously, I am not surprised you were quicker with the short gun, which cycles faster and is easier to crudely align with a short-range target. And of course it recoils less!
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  3. #3
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    I'll have to try this sometime this week, but I'll be shooting two 10" steel targets. The kill zone isn't much smaller than 10" on your targets is it?

    Zhur

  4. #4
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Seriously, I am not surprised you were quicker with the short gun, which cycles faster and is easier to crudely align with a short-range target. And of course it recoils less!
    Reduced recoil probably has more to do with the fact that the SC he was shooting was a 9mm vs .45 in the C.

  5. #5
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Reduced recoil probably has more to do with the fact that the SC he was shooting was a 9mm vs .45 in the C.
    Agreed, but I can also shoot a 3" 1911 faster on multiple targets than a 5-6" version, even in the same caliber.
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  6. #6
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
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    Is shooting in the boondocks not allowed in Florida?
    If so set up an El Presidente scenario and try that. My wrist is hurting Mike so you please fill him in. My best with an M&P40 while old and overweight is 6.35 seconds.

  7. #7
    JeffWard's Avatar
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    The question comes down to... caliber-war...

    Faster and more accurate with a 9mm, or slower and sloppier with a 45???

    Besides the fact the 9mm is typically more comfortable to carry, lighter, and cheaper to practice with (by half)...

    I scored ALL "spinal" hits with the 9mm. No more than 1" right or left of the vertical line of the target. Most patterns were 2-4" vertical and 1" wide.

    The 45 was 3-6" vertical, and 2-4" wide...

    If you're hitting 1" either side of the spinal column with multiple hits... you don't need 230gr of lead. 125-147gr of modern 9mm will "remove the will to fight" pretty quick.

    Mike- No embarrassment here... I want to get better. I'd really like to know what your opinion of an "expert", "average", and "minimally proficient" time totals/splits for 2 shots, to 2 targets, at 7M, spaced by about 4ft, would be. I've never done it on a timer, and never been to a defense school to see it done. There's nothing like that here in Orlando!!!

    I'm sure MANY forum members would LOVE to know what "good" is. And what you consider "defensive accuracy" is. I've seen the "A-zone" on a competition target, but many haven't.

    Would you agree that "windage" (accuracy from left to right) is more important than "elevation" (vertical) in defensive shooting? Since the most critical one-shot-stop target, is the CNS/spinal column???

    Would you agree that any spinal (Central Nervous System) hit from the tailbone to the ocular cavity, is better than any hit, anywhere else?

    What is taught at Gunsite and others? Shoot the CNS, or simply shoot the chest/organs?

    Thanks!

    Jeff

  8. #8
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    My best with an M&P40 while old and overweight is 6.35 seconds.
    Impressive shooting, TOF! Did that include the 180* pivot? How many points down?

    El Presidente:

    Three USPSA targets at 10 yards.

    Shooters starts with back to targets, pistol holstered. On signal, pivot 180* and engage. Fire two shots at COM of each target, execute a speed reload, and fire two more COM shots at each target.

    Hits are 5 points for A's, and 2 points for C's. Hits in the head do not count.

    "Par time" is ten seconds. A five-second penalty is assessed for each second over ten. Conversely, add five points for each second under ten. As a scoring example, I shot a 53 at Gunsite. My hits totalled 43, but I did it in eight seconds, so I gained 10 points, for a total of 53.

    To give you an idea of "good" on this drill, Rob Leatham can do it around 4 seconds.

    This drill is not tactical training. It is only a general test of pistol skill.
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  9. #9
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
    The question comes down to... caliber-war...
    Competition will hone skills useful in SD, but then you don't have to worry about 360 situtational awareness during competition. Penetration and angles don't come into play.

  10. #10
    JeffWard's Avatar
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    I'll have to try that next time.

    Do they shoot standard USPSA Targets, IDPA Targets???

    What is the dimensions on the A-Zone, C-Zone?

    JW

  11. #11
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
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    Facing away hands on head, full drill.

    I don't remember scoring They were certainly not all A's but there were no misses. .

    I haven't been able to repeat that time but have been close on occasion. Depends on the day and how much Geritol I have had.

  12. #12
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
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    Standard IPSC targets. You can see and get 100 from here http://www.mgmtargets.com/

    For $40 plus freight. Their worth it.

    Have fun


  13. #13
    JeffWard's Avatar
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    Mike- You posted a post a while back on you defensive shooting practice routine??? I forget.

    Not a fixed El Presidente drill... What do you typically do, and what should the average guy, with an average range, with average BS range rules do?

    Experienced defensive shooters:
    Put your coach hat on... Be my Defensive Shooting Personal Trainer! I have a 100 round per week budget, and access to a standard 25yd range, with no-holster-work rules. I can shoot from one position, up to 2-3 "alleys" if the range is not full. Preferably in 2-lanes max. What would you suggest as my best use of time and ammo?

    JW (and many others!)

  14. #14
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
    I scored ALL "spinal" hits with the 9mm. No more than 1" right or left of the vertical line of the target. Most patterns were 2-4" vertical and 1" wide.
    Shoot faster! Your groups are too small. If your hits are centered and you can cover them with an open hand (fingers outstretched), you're about right on speed.

    The 45 was 3-6" vertical, and 2-4" wide...
    That's about right for dispersion.

    Mike- No embarrassment here...
    Just giving you a hard time, brother!

    I'd really like to know what your opinion of an "expert", "average", and "minimally proficient" time totals/splits for 2 shots, to 2 targets, at 7M, spaced by about 4ft, would be. I've never done it on a timer, and never been to a defense school to see it done.
    I was consistently doing it in 1.2-1.3 seconds (with all center hits) from the holster at three and five yards at Gunsite. Presumably I'd need a little extra time at seven, so maybe 1.5-1.7 or so. I will try it with my shot timer next time we head out to the desert. I consider myself a slightly above average, but very far from expert, shooter.

    There's nothing like that here in Orlando!!!
    Take a drive: http://www.southernexposuretraining.com/. Randy Cain has a sterling reputation!

    Or: http://www.frankgarciausa.com/usa.html.

    Would you agree that "windage" (accuracy from left to right) is more important than "elevation" (vertical) in defensive shooting? Since the most critical one-shot-stop target, is the CNS/spinal column???
    Ideally, hits should be placed high in the sternum. Imagine a triangle running between the nipples and up to the base of the throat.

    Would you agree that any spinal (Central Nervous System) hit from the tailbone to the ocular cavity, is better than any hit, anywhere else?
    Not necessarily. A hit in the tailbone may knock the guy down, but if he has a gun he can still shoot me. Reliably getting to the spine on a frontal shot can be difficult.

    The head is small and fast-moving and hard to hit. It's a secondary target.

    What is taught at Gunsite and others? Shoot the CNS, or simply shoot the chest/organs?
    Gunsite recommends hits in the high center chest as primary.
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 08-11-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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  15. #15
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
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    If after 2 or 3 to high center chest (actual hits) don't work then try elsewhere as you are probably dealing with armor or caliber inadequacy.

    Your .45's should be adequate.

  16. #16
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
    Mike- You posted a post a while back on you defensive shooting practice routine??? I forget.
    Here's a page full of good drills: http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/all_drills.html.

    What do you typically do,
    Typically, we run one version or another of the "standards" from Gunsite/Front Sight/ASAA. We throw in some weak-hand-only shooting, and make sure we do some work from Retention at contact distance.

    Then we'll usually run a Box Drill, a Snake, and lately an El Prez. Lastly, we often set up 2-3 scenarios.

    Put your coach hat on... Be my Defensive Shooting Personal Trainer! I have a 100 round per week budget, and access to a standard 25yd range, with no-holster-work rules. I can shoot from one position, up to 2-3 "alleys" if the range is not full. Preferably in 2-lanes max. What would you suggest as my best use of time and ammo?
    100 rounds is plenty. Start everything from Low Ready or Retention, since you can't work from the holster.

    From three yards:

    With a Sharpie, draw a 1/4" black dot on a plain target. Make the dot disappear with five rounds or less. No time limit.

    Five rounds strong hand only, COM.

    Five rounds weak hand only, COM.

    Hammer, freestyle, COM. Repeat twice.

    Mozambique. Repeat twice.

    From five yards:

    Hammer, freestyle, COM. Repeat twice.

    Hammer on each of two targets, COM. Repeat once.

    Mozambique. Repeat twice.

    From seven yards:

    Controlled pair freestyle, COM. Repeat twice.

    2-plus-2 (fire two, speed load, fire two). Repeat twice.

    Controlled pair on each of two targets, COM. Repeat once.

    From ten yards:

    Controlled pair, freestyle, COM. Repeat twice.

    From fifteen yards:

    Controlled pair, freestyle, COM. Repeat twice. (I like kneeling for this.)

    Back to three yards:

    Repeat dot drill.

    Total is 98 rounds, if my addition skills are better than a third-graders'. They may not be.

    Go back home and (with an empty gun, obviously) work on your draws and maybe tactical loads.
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 08-11-2008 at 09:47 PM.
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  17. #17
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Mike, that's an excellent practice routine. Keep it up.

  18. #18
    JeffWard's Avatar
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    Fantastic...

    The plinkers will look at me funny shooting at 3yds... but f-'em.

    JeffWard

  19. #19
    BeefyBeefo's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info, Mike. Going to copy, paste and save

    -Jeff-

  20. #20
    leftseat is offline Junior Member
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    How do you like the XD45C. I am in the market for one as we speak. It will be my full time carry weapon.
    Thanks

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