New Trend In Law Enforcement Handguns - Sig P227 Review

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    1. #1
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      New Trend In Law Enforcement Handguns - Sig P227 Review

      I've stated several times that more LE agencies/officers are starting to move away from the .40 S&W round in favor of either the 9mm or .45ACP. In my quest for reviews of the P227, I ran across this. Thought it was worth sharing. Good read.

      SIG Sauer P227 Pistol - Article - POLICE Magazine

    2. #2
      Member Scorpion8's Avatar
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      Interesting article re: .40 S&W. Even more fun are the customer feedback comments at the bottom, everything from <----- left to far ------> right in opinion content (not politics). Gotta love these topics because there's no one-size-fits-all.

    3. #3
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      Well the comments were more about the P227, but nothing abnormal about the left/right march. Seems like the P227 is a nice piece.

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      Senior Member TAPnRACK's Avatar
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      Just read that same article a little while ago... i'm trying to get our Dept to switch to either 9mm or 45ACP (hoping for 9mm myself) as well. So many think the .40 is the best of both worlds... it's hard to change "convention wisdom" though.
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    6. #5
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      I personally went back to the 9mm a couple years ago. With technology today, you really don't need anything else.

    7. #6
      Member Smitty79's Avatar
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      I am still a big fan of lots of bullets. If I get a choice, 10 isn't enough. Of the guns I am familiar with, if I am restricted to ball ammo, I want a a Glock 21. If I can shoot modern defensive ammo with a service gun, Glock 17/34 or a CZ SP-01. For carry, Glock 19.

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      Yeah, I carry the Glock 19 and love it. It is the most practical EDC gun made, for me.

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      Probably be banned in California, "everyone knows" there is no need for high capacity magazines. (Tongue firmly in cheek)
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    10. #9
      Member hillman's Avatar
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      Based on my vast (several months) experience, cops should have no more problem qualifying with the .40 than with the 9 - provided that the duty pistol is 'full size' and all steel. Range work once a month may not be enough to get comfortable with the .40 out of a light gun.

    11. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by hillman View Post
      Based on my vast (several months) experience, cops should have no more problem qualifying with the .40 than with the 9 - provided that the duty pistol is 'full size' and all steel. Range work once a month may not be enough to get comfortable with the .40 out of a light gun.
      Most LEOs use Glock with some 65% in the US. Then HK, Sig, SW, Beretta pick up the majority of the remaining market. Most of those are going to be full size service pistols, while some officers use compacts like the Glock 19/23, etc., but the .40 is a harder recoiling round than either the 9mm or .45acp no matter what platform you're using. I know I can shoot the .40 accurately, with no problems; however, I am more accurate and faster with the 9mm. My guess is that these agencies/officers are experiencing much the same. You have to keep in mind that a decent number of cops aren't necessarily great marksmen. Some have never held a gun until they were hired by an agency. Some don't put in anymore time with their weapons than what the minimum acceptabld standard is. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you're shooting or how great the round is if you can't hit the mark. Couple being less accurate at the range with being under extreme pressure of a real conflict and you're looking at disaster. I don't think these agencies would be going away from the .40 for no reason.

    12. #11
      Member hillman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by GCBHM View Post
      Most LEOs use Glock with some 65% in the US. Then HK, Sig, SW, Beretta pick up the majority of the remaining market. Most of those are going to be full size service pistols, while some officers use compacts like the Glock 19/23, etc., but the .40 is a harder recoiling round than either the 9mm or .45acp no matter what platform you're using. I know I can shoot the .40 accurately, with no problems; however, I am more accurate and faster with the 9mm. My guess is that these agencies/officers are experiencing much the same. You have to keep in mind that a decent number of cops aren't necessarily great marksmen. Some have never held a gun until they were hired by an agency. Some don't put in anymore time with their weapons than what the minimum acceptabld standard is. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you're shooting or how great the round is if you can't hit the mark. Couple being less accurate at the range with being under extreme pressure of a real conflict and you're looking at disaster. I don't think these agencies would be going away from the .40 for no reason.
      I'm sure they aren't changing 'for no reason', I just suspect it's for the wrong reasons. I'm guessing that the officers are not sufficiently familiar with their duty weapons, don't get enough range practice with instructors present. I also suspect that many of those 'too much recoil' guns are not all steel, even though they may be 'full size'. Inertia added by the greater mass of an all steel gun moderates the 'felt' recoil for the shooter.

      On another tack - are Glocks (seeing as how that's what the cops have) convertible from .40 to 9 by a simple barrel-magazine-extractor change, doable by a police armorer?

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      Quote Originally Posted by hillman View Post
      I'm sure they aren't changing 'for no reason', I just suspect it's for the wrong reasons. I'm guessing that the officers are not sufficiently familiar with their duty weapons, don't get enough range practice with instructors present. I also suspect that many of those 'too much recoil' guns are not all steel, even though they may be 'full size'. Inertia added by the greater mass of an all steel gun moderates the 'felt' recoil for the shooter.

      On another tack - are Glocks (seeing as how that's what the cops have) convertible from .40 to 9 by a simple barrel-magazine-extractor change, doable by a police armorer?
      Well, all I can tell you is that they are citing accuracy issues as the reason they are switching. I don't think Glocks can be converted b/c the guts are not the same. As I said, 65% of LE use a Glock of some caliber, but it really doesn't matter what type of gun you're using, a .40 is going to recoil more than a 9mm or .45ACP. A Sig P226 in .40 will have a sharper recoil than the 9mm P226. I can shoot better with the 9mm P226 than with the .40 P226, although I am accurate with both. It's all about shot placement and target acquisition. I can get back on target quicker with a 9mm than I can a .40 regardless of the platform. I believe it is the same for everyone.

    14. #13
      Senior Member TAPnRACK's Avatar
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      Most Depts are not going to modify (re-configure) a pistol for a lot of reasons... mostly legality reasons. LE qual courses consist of a lot of one handed shooting, both strong and non-dominate hand... where recoil control is critical. Throw in shooting behind cover and under time constraints and the average person will perform better with a 9mm or 45ACP rather than the .40. Better times and scores on the range should translate in more confidence and better hit probability on the street. I'm working on trying this out as an experiment as we are currently looking to purchase new handguns and changing caliber is a topic of discussion.

      That's my viewpoint... others may think another way. Polymer is preferred by LE for several reasons, weight being a primary one. Sometimes what sounds good on paper dosen't hold the same value in the real life application... hence the "conventional wisdom" regarding the .40 being the medium ground between 9mm & .45ACP.
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      Thanks guys. I think I have displayed enough resistance to "yet another changeover" to have got the 'pro' view out there. I am neither experienced enough nor smart enough to adequately present the 'con' view. Personally, I don't consider the .40 to be 'middle ground'. I don't consider the .30-30 to be equal to or better than the .30-06 either.

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      This is a list of state police.
      I googled up this list,


      Alabama Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)
      Alaska Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)
      Arizona Sig P226 (.40 S&W)
      Arkansas Glock 21SF (State Police), Glock 22 (S.P. Highway Patrol) (.45 ACP, .40 S&W)
      California S&W 4006TSW (.40 S&W)
      Colorado S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
      Connecticut Sig P226/P229 (.40 S&W) Switched to SIG P220 in 45ACP
      Delaware Sig P229 (.357Sig)
      Florida Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
      Georgia Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
      Hawaii (State Sheriff's Office, Honolulu) S&W M&P (9mm)
      Idaho Glock 21 (.45 ACP) or Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Illinois Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Indiana Glock 17 (9mm)
      Iowa S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
      Kansas Glock 21 (.45 ACP)
      Kentucky Glock 35 (.40 S&W)...........Transitioning to Gen 4 G35
      Lousiana Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Maine HK USP (.45 ACP)
      Maryland Beretta Px4 (.40 S&W)
      Massachusetts S&W M&P (.45 ACP)
      Michigan Sig P226 (.40 S&W)
      Minnesota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Mississippi Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Missouri Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Montana Sig P229 (.357Sig)
      Nebraska Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Nevada Sig P229 (.40 S&W)
      New Hampshire S&W M&P (.45 ACP)
      New Jersey Sig 228 (9mm)
      New Mexico S&W M&P (.357 Sig).........The latest word is that NM has gone back to .40 for cost reasons
      New York Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
      North Carolina S&W M&P(.357Sig)
      North Dakota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Ohio Sig P229/P226 (.40 S&W)
      Oklahoma Sig P226R (.357Sig)
      Oregon S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
      Pennsylvania Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
      Rhode Island Sig P229 (.357Sig)
      South Carolina Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
      South Dakota Sig P229 (.357 Sig)
      Tennessee Glock 31 (.357Sig)
      Texas Sig P229/P226 (.357Sig)
      Utah Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Vermont S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
      Virginia Sig P229RDAK (.357Sig)
      Washington S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
      West Virginia S&W 4566TSW (.45 ACP)
      Wisconsin Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
      Wyoming S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

      As you can see by the list the .40 S&W is the most used caliber. The 9mm is hardly used at all.
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    17. #16
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      Dude, no one said that the .40 isn't used. In fact, the subject is "new trend", which in and of itself should indicate that it isn't the norm. NO ONE said that the .40 is going away. The article stated that some agencies have STARTED to go away from it citing that they were going to EITHER the 9mm OR...wait for it...the 45!!!

      What, have you been commissioned to defend the .40, or do you just have too much time on your hands?

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      I try to post facts and not speculation "dude". There are too many newbs spouting BS as the gospel because of false information that is found on various gun forums.
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      You have posted information you say you got on line, from who knows where or how old. What makes it any more valid than anything anyone else, "newbs" or not posts? What I posted was not presented as "gospel". Nor is it false information or speculation. It was not meant to mislead anyone, nor was it in any way inaccurate. It is a FACT that law enforcement agencies are starting to go away from the .40, and I know for a FACT many agencies in Alabama either issue a 9mm/.45 or allow their officers to use one or the other.

      I know that the DEA, FBI, Secret Service, the US military and various other federal agencies use something other than a .40, although some do allow their agents to choose .40 if they wish. In fact, the DEA issues either a Glock 22/23; however, if the agent isn't able to qualify with the .40, they are then issued eihter a Glock 17/19 in 9mm. I'm pretty sure it is the same for the FBI.

      I know one DEA agent who carries the Glock 22, and another who carries the Sig P229, but both tell me a lot of agents carry a 9mm. It is up to that agent, but here's the thing. Nothing you have posted disqualifies the fact that agencies are starting to move away from the .40 cartridge. So while you're trying to post facts, also try to keep in mind that while it may be a fact that the .40 is still in use, that does not negate the FACT that some agencies are going away from it, uh.

    20. #19
      Member TurboHonda's Avatar
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      [QUOTE=GCBHM;322730]Dude, no one said that the .40 isn't used. In fact, the subject is "new trend", which in and of itself should indicate that it isn't the norm. NO ONE said that the .40 is going away. The article stated that some agencies have STARTED to go away from it citing that they were going to EITHER the 9mm OR...wait for it...the 45!!!

      What, have you been commissioned to defend the .40, or do you just have too much time on your hands?[/QUOTE]

      Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Since you joined the forum this year you've accumulated more than 1300 posts. In your quest to have the final word, you are alienating some people whose opinions are just as valid as yours.

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      You miss the point here, but then I'm not surprised. Those who point the finger are often the most offensive. But let me try to offer some explanation here, since you jumped in.

      First, I wasn't looking to have the final word. I posted an article that I thought was intersting. It had some good comments until zeke chimes in trying to disprove something no one ever said. He isn't just stating his opinion here. He is actually trying to prove he is right. But the thing is no one ever said the .40 isn't a good round or that it is going away.

      Now, why you decided to chime in, I really don't know, but I suspect it is b/c you and I had a disagreement within the last few days in which it seemed to me you insisted on having a last word. Isn't that interesting. A pot...calling a kettle black...

      And it also seems that you're a bit of a stalker too!

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