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Thread: New Trend In Law Enforcement Handguns - Sig P227 Review

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    GCBHM is online now Senior Member
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    New Trend In Law Enforcement Handguns - Sig P227 Review

    I've stated several times that more LE agencies/officers are starting to move away from the .40 S&W round in favor of either the 9mm or .45ACP. In my quest for reviews of the P227, I ran across this. Thought it was worth sharing. Good read.

    SIG Sauer P227 Pistol - Article - POLICE Magazine

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    Interesting article re: .40 S&W. Even more fun are the customer feedback comments at the bottom, everything from <----- left to far ------> right in opinion content (not politics). Gotta love these topics because there's no one-size-fits-all.

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    GCBHM is online now Senior Member
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    Well the comments were more about the P227, but nothing abnormal about the left/right march. Seems like the P227 is a nice piece.

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    Just read that same article a little while ago... i'm trying to get our Dept to switch to either 9mm or 45ACP (hoping for 9mm myself) as well. So many think the .40 is the best of both worlds... it's hard to change "convention wisdom" though.
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    GCBHM is online now Senior Member
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    I personally went back to the 9mm a couple years ago. With technology today, you really don't need anything else.

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    I am still a big fan of lots of bullets. If I get a choice, 10 isn't enough. Of the guns I am familiar with, if I am restricted to ball ammo, I want a a Glock 21. If I can shoot modern defensive ammo with a service gun, Glock 17/34 or a CZ SP-01. For carry, Glock 19.

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    GCBHM is online now Senior Member
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    Yeah, I carry the Glock 19 and love it. It is the most practical EDC gun made, for me.

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    almanor is offline Junior Member
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    Probably be banned in California, "everyone knows" there is no need for high capacity magazines. (Tongue firmly in cheek)
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    Based on my vast (several months) experience, cops should have no more problem qualifying with the .40 than with the 9 - provided that the duty pistol is 'full size' and all steel. Range work once a month may not be enough to get comfortable with the .40 out of a light gun.

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    GCBHM is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillman View Post
    Based on my vast (several months) experience, cops should have no more problem qualifying with the .40 than with the 9 - provided that the duty pistol is 'full size' and all steel. Range work once a month may not be enough to get comfortable with the .40 out of a light gun.
    Most LEOs use Glock with some 65% in the US. Then HK, Sig, SW, Beretta pick up the majority of the remaining market. Most of those are going to be full size service pistols, while some officers use compacts like the Glock 19/23, etc., but the .40 is a harder recoiling round than either the 9mm or .45acp no matter what platform you're using. I know I can shoot the .40 accurately, with no problems; however, I am more accurate and faster with the 9mm. My guess is that these agencies/officers are experiencing much the same. You have to keep in mind that a decent number of cops aren't necessarily great marksmen. Some have never held a gun until they were hired by an agency. Some don't put in anymore time with their weapons than what the minimum acceptabld standard is. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you're shooting or how great the round is if you can't hit the mark. Couple being less accurate at the range with being under extreme pressure of a real conflict and you're looking at disaster. I don't think these agencies would be going away from the .40 for no reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GCBHM View Post
    Most LEOs use Glock with some 65% in the US. Then HK, Sig, SW, Beretta pick up the majority of the remaining market. Most of those are going to be full size service pistols, while some officers use compacts like the Glock 19/23, etc., but the .40 is a harder recoiling round than either the 9mm or .45acp no matter what platform you're using. I know I can shoot the .40 accurately, with no problems; however, I am more accurate and faster with the 9mm. My guess is that these agencies/officers are experiencing much the same. You have to keep in mind that a decent number of cops aren't necessarily great marksmen. Some have never held a gun until they were hired by an agency. Some don't put in anymore time with their weapons than what the minimum acceptabld standard is. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you're shooting or how great the round is if you can't hit the mark. Couple being less accurate at the range with being under extreme pressure of a real conflict and you're looking at disaster. I don't think these agencies would be going away from the .40 for no reason.
    I'm sure they aren't changing 'for no reason', I just suspect it's for the wrong reasons. I'm guessing that the officers are not sufficiently familiar with their duty weapons, don't get enough range practice with instructors present. I also suspect that many of those 'too much recoil' guns are not all steel, even though they may be 'full size'. Inertia added by the greater mass of an all steel gun moderates the 'felt' recoil for the shooter.

    On another tack - are Glocks (seeing as how that's what the cops have) convertible from .40 to 9 by a simple barrel-magazine-extractor change, doable by a police armorer?

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    GCBHM is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillman View Post
    I'm sure they aren't changing 'for no reason', I just suspect it's for the wrong reasons. I'm guessing that the officers are not sufficiently familiar with their duty weapons, don't get enough range practice with instructors present. I also suspect that many of those 'too much recoil' guns are not all steel, even though they may be 'full size'. Inertia added by the greater mass of an all steel gun moderates the 'felt' recoil for the shooter.

    On another tack - are Glocks (seeing as how that's what the cops have) convertible from .40 to 9 by a simple barrel-magazine-extractor change, doable by a police armorer?
    Well, all I can tell you is that they are citing accuracy issues as the reason they are switching. I don't think Glocks can be converted b/c the guts are not the same. As I said, 65% of LE use a Glock of some caliber, but it really doesn't matter what type of gun you're using, a .40 is going to recoil more than a 9mm or .45ACP. A Sig P226 in .40 will have a sharper recoil than the 9mm P226. I can shoot better with the 9mm P226 than with the .40 P226, although I am accurate with both. It's all about shot placement and target acquisition. I can get back on target quicker with a 9mm than I can a .40 regardless of the platform. I believe it is the same for everyone.

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    Most Depts are not going to modify (re-configure) a pistol for a lot of reasons... mostly legality reasons. LE qual courses consist of a lot of one handed shooting, both strong and non-dominate hand... where recoil control is critical. Throw in shooting behind cover and under time constraints and the average person will perform better with a 9mm or 45ACP rather than the .40. Better times and scores on the range should translate in more confidence and better hit probability on the street. I'm working on trying this out as an experiment as we are currently looking to purchase new handguns and changing caliber is a topic of discussion.

    That's my viewpoint... others may think another way. Polymer is preferred by LE for several reasons, weight being a primary one. Sometimes what sounds good on paper dosen't hold the same value in the real life application... hence the "conventional wisdom" regarding the .40 being the medium ground between 9mm & .45ACP.
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    Thanks guys. I think I have displayed enough resistance to "yet another changeover" to have got the 'pro' view out there. I am neither experienced enough nor smart enough to adequately present the 'con' view. Personally, I don't consider the .40 to be 'middle ground'. I don't consider the .30-30 to be equal to or better than the .30-06 either.

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    zeke4351 is online now Junior Member
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    This is a list of state police.
    I googled up this list,


    Alabama Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)
    Alaska Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)
    Arizona Sig P226 (.40 S&W)
    Arkansas Glock 21SF (State Police), Glock 22 (S.P. Highway Patrol) (.45 ACP, .40 S&W)
    California S&W 4006TSW (.40 S&W)
    Colorado S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
    Connecticut Sig P226/P229 (.40 S&W) Switched to SIG P220 in 45ACP
    Delaware Sig P229 (.357Sig)
    Florida Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
    Georgia Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
    Hawaii (State Sheriff's Office, Honolulu) S&W M&P (9mm)
    Idaho Glock 21 (.45 ACP) or Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Illinois Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Indiana Glock 17 (9mm)
    Iowa S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
    Kansas Glock 21 (.45 ACP)
    Kentucky Glock 35 (.40 S&W)...........Transitioning to Gen 4 G35
    Lousiana Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Maine HK USP (.45 ACP)
    Maryland Beretta Px4 (.40 S&W)
    Massachusetts S&W M&P (.45 ACP)
    Michigan Sig P226 (.40 S&W)
    Minnesota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Mississippi Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Missouri Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Montana Sig P229 (.357Sig)
    Nebraska Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Nevada Sig P229 (.40 S&W)
    New Hampshire S&W M&P (.45 ACP)
    New Jersey Sig 228 (9mm)
    New Mexico S&W M&P (.357 Sig).........The latest word is that NM has gone back to .40 for cost reasons
    New York Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
    North Carolina S&W M&P(.357Sig)
    North Dakota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Ohio Sig P229/P226 (.40 S&W)
    Oklahoma Sig P226R (.357Sig)
    Oregon S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
    Pennsylvania Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
    Rhode Island Sig P229 (.357Sig)
    South Carolina Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
    South Dakota Sig P229 (.357 Sig)
    Tennessee Glock 31 (.357Sig)
    Texas Sig P229/P226 (.357Sig)
    Utah Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Vermont S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
    Virginia Sig P229RDAK (.357Sig)
    Washington S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
    West Virginia S&W 4566TSW (.45 ACP)
    Wisconsin Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
    Wyoming S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

    As you can see by the list the .40 S&W is the most used caliber. The 9mm is hardly used at all.

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