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  1. #1
    SigDoubleTap is offline Junior Member
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    Are the days of the 9mm over?

    I have shot dozens calibers in multiple platforms. I chose the 9mm because it offered everything. I chose a Sig P226 because it was the best.

    Overpenetration is crap in my book. Is everyone supposed to hit the target with one perfect shot...hell no. Therefore a .22 can be leathal to others and have overpenetration issues. Fact, there is so much controversy due to the lack of penetration the FBI's 115 grain bullets had. ( Miami Shootout) If they had 124 +P's or 147's, the story would have been re written.

    I have been hearing a lot of smack talk against the 9mm. About it not taking down the enemy. True more mass = more energy transfer. This is why I use 147 grain ammo, and also have some 124 gr +P's. I like the push of the 147's, less muzzle climb and a snap than a 115 grain.

    I know the .45 was developed for penetration, at the time 9mm's were small, light, and nothing like todays ammo. Did you know that the military actually denied the original Browning .45, wanting more weight, the 230 grain, knowing the slower heavier bullet would perform better. The 147's I use go as deep as any .45 on the market. Up to 16 inches in 10% gel. Way past FBI protocol of 12".



    So, what are your views on the 9mm. Is it a dying breed? Everyone is talking about how the military should switch, but aren't they limited to 115 grain FMJ ammo? The stuff I trust for target practice only. Plus everyone else is switching to the .40's and .45's. Is the 9mm going to be forgotten? I believe, with the right loading, the 9mm, which has been around over 90 years, is a superb man stopper, which can outperform many larger calibers.



    Personally, if I ever am put into immenent danger, where leathal force is warranted, I'm going to shoot until the target stops moving. It doesn't matter if it's a 9mm or a .45. I'll empty the mag into the bastard.

    Aside from any .40 or .45 platforms, I believe the P226 is the finest gun made ( Aside from other Sig 9mm's), and I love it, trust it, and use it every week.



    Jannet

  2. #2
    VAMarine's Avatar
    VAMarine is online now Administrator
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    The 9mm is here to stay until ray guns are available. The Military still uses .45s pending on specific unit etc. and yes the Military uses FMJ only in all small arms that fire such projectiles. The NATO 9mm round leaves a lot to be desired when compared to more "modern" bullet designs which is why many are clamoring for the change, if an alternate chambering were to be used other than the 9mm NATO cartridge, I think there would be more happy campers.

  3. #3
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    cougartex is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    The 9mm is here to stay until ray guns are available.


    No, 9mm is not a dying breed.

  4. #4
    Sully2 is offline Banned
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    Geneva convention dictates that small arms ammunition be "FMJ".

  5. #5
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    The days of 9mm will be over when another caliber is MORE universally available and adopted worldwide. If the .40 was THE best ever invented, why has it NOT been around as long as 9mm or .45? I'm still not sold on the "new girl in school" anymore than I have been impressed by it in anything I have "test driven" it in (BTW, still NOT impressed enough to own one).

    The .45 was not developed for penetration. It was developed to put more mass (lead) on targed than anything available at the time was capable of providing. The penetration arguement has been at the core of the "Great Caliber Debate" forever. Like the "what's the best gun" question that keeps appearing everywhere, whatever an individual is most comfortable and proficient with (in firearm and/or caliber) is going to be the BEST choice for that individual.

    It really is THAT simple.

  6. #6
    Sully2 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigDoubleTap View Post
    I have shot dozens calibers in multiple platforms. I chose the 9mm because it offered everything. I chose a Sig P226 because it was the best.

    Overpenetration is crap in my book. Is everyone supposed to hit the target with one perfect shot...hell no. Therefore a .22 can be leathal to others and have overpenetration issues. Fact, there is so much controversy due to the lack of penetration the FBI's 115 grain bullets had. ( Miami Shootout) If they had 124 +P's or 147's, the story would have been re written.

    I have been hearing a lot of smack talk against the 9mm. About it not taking down the enemy. True more mass = more energy transfer. This is why I use 147 grain ammo, and also have some 124 gr +P's. I like the push of the 147's, less muzzle climb and a snap than a 115 grain.

    I know the .45 was developed for penetration, at the time 9mm's were small, light, and nothing like todays ammo. Did you know that the military actually denied the original Browning .45, wanting more weight, the 230 grain, knowing the slower heavier bullet would perform better. The 147's I use go as deep as any .45 on the market. Up to 16 inches in 10% gel. Way past FBI protocol of 12".



    So, what are your views on the 9mm. Is it a dying breed? Everyone is talking about how the military should switch, but aren't they limited to 115 grain FMJ ammo? The stuff I trust for target practice only. Plus everyone else is switching to the .40's and .45's. Is the 9mm going to be forgotten? I believe, with the right loading, the 9mm, which has been around over 90 years, is a superb man stopper, which can outperform many larger calibers.



    Personally, if I ever am put into immenent danger, where leathal force is warranted, I'm going to shoot until the target stops moving. It doesn't matter if it's a 9mm or a .45. I'll empty the mag into the bastard.

    Aside from any .40 or .45 platforms, I believe the P226 is the finest gun made ( Aside from other Sig 9mm's), and I love it, trust it, and use it every week.



    Jannet
    If a person gleans some of the self "chest beating" from your post some obvious errors appear. "Over penetration".. ANY bullet that doesnt expend 100% of its energy ( impossible) and remain WITHIN the "body" of the "target" ( assuming it be human being) is WASTED ENERGY.

    If you research the load data you will find that SOME companys load their 115 gr FMJ loads to a sufficient higher speed to actually have MORE Ft Lbs of energy that the 124 and 147 grain loads. Energy is the resultant of BOTH bullet mass AND speed. Just going to more bullet weight dont create it.

    The 45 ACP was developed NOT for "penetration" but to give a calvary officer the EQUIVALENT of the old 45 revolver load but in a different weapon holding more ammo.
    The military isnt limited to 115 gr ammo..but they are limited to FMJ

    Regardless the 9mm isnt dead..not by a long shot. Is the Sig the "best on earth"?? They are good..no doubt but I chose the SW MP 9mm because of a smaller lighter package. Price difference didnt mean jack squat to me personally.

    Put you in "imminent danger"? Lord I hope not but if it happens I hope Im in the next town by the way you intend on spraying bullets around!

  7. #7
    Sully2 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Growler67 View Post
    The days of 9mm will be over when another caliber is MORE universally available and adopted worldwide. If the .40 was THE best ever invented, why has it NOT been around as long as 9mm or .45? I'm still not sold on the "new girl in school" anymore than I have been impressed by it in anything I have "test driven" it in (BTW, still NOT impressed enough to own one).

    The .45 was not developed for penetration. It was developed to put more mass (lead) on targed than anything available at the time was capable of providing. The penetration arguement has been at the core of the "Great Caliber Debate" forever. Like the "what's the best gun" question that keeps appearing everywhere, whatever an individual is most comfortable and proficient with (in firearm and/or caliber) is going to be the BEST choice for that individual.

    It really is THAT simple.
    I agree!
    The .40 is a great "caliber"...but its a "jacked up" loading that too many cant handle well

  8. #8
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    the 9x19 is going to be around for awhile. mostly because it's cheap, it does do the nessacary job, and in the case of your BG being a drug crazy lunatic you've got more ammo to incapacitate him than with others.

    the navy, coast guard, army and I believe even the marines use the M9 Berretta 92fs. they all also have the sig 226 available for conceal carry purposes (or if your CO thinks he's cool). there's other handguns out their for smaller niche military communities who have special needs for their purposes', but the garden variety are all 9 mil.

    why do they all use that round? it works, and it's cheap relatively cheap.

    I intend to purchase something in a .45 acp when I get back stateside to be my main carry weapon, but I'm also likely to purchase something in 9mm compact as either a back up, or primary when the .45 is too large for the attire I'm wearing that day. only thing faster then a practised reload is drawing a second weapon in condition one and pulling the trigger.

    9mil will be around for awhile. people may not brag about it much, especially on a forum like this which seems to very much learn towards the heavier rounds, but the market will still exist.

  9. #9
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Bullet technology has made the 9mm round very versatile, allowing a person to cheaply practice with 'powderpuff' practice loads, and then load out for self defense with high performance hollow points that will make a wound almost as devastating as a .45.

    I think it may be around for another hundred years.

  10. #10
    Freedom1911's Avatar
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    9mm is not going anywhere. It has been around for a long time, and will be around for a long time.
    There are just a lot of people stuck in the past where 9mm performance is concerned.
    Just keep shooting your 9mm and having fun.

  11. #11
    hideit's Avatar
    hideit is offline Senior Member
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    the 9mm will be over when
    NATO changes
    cost of 45acp ammo is the same as 9mm
    police departments are given $M's to change
    if the FBI hadn't gone to .40 that caliber would be a thing of the past
    i still wonder why the Homeland Defense went to 357sig

  12. #12
    Growler67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hideit View Post
    i still wonder why the Homeland Defense went to 357sig
    Because it was already in the Governments inventory as the choice of the Secret Service (SiG P229 in that chambering - and still is) and so instead of going through a series of "tests" and contract competitions, they just adopted what was already available when the new Department was created. One of the deciding factors for the Secret Service adopting the caliber was it's performance in defeating auto glass (just one of many). The higher velocity (that 9mm) and same bullet diameter/profile provided better (more desirable) performance than 9mm. The .45 being subsonic and larger diameter/profile fell well short of the perfomance profile they sought.

    The FBI has a history of making maverick decisions and thus went for the compromise caliber in .40 S&W. Bigger than 9mm (for those that accept the position that 9mm is too small to be effective) yet smaller and higher capacity that .45 (for those that accept the postion that bigger hole is better). Not discounting the possibility that exclusivity wasn't a factor in the decision - a derivitive of the "be American, buy American" creedo that was prevalent at the time the caliber was introduced. No other agency (worldwide) would copy the FBI as most other agencies go with 9mm worldwide as it is avaialable anywhere on the planet.

  13. #13
    redbarron57 is offline Junior Member
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    The 9mm will never die for one simple reason, WOMEN. The 9mm is an excellent round for people with smaller hands who cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers. It does have many other advantages to. It can be loaded into a smaller, more compact platform without sacrificing capacity and it is a very accurate round even past 25 yards. I have 2 9's. The SA XD-9 subcompact and the Sig Saur P-239. The SA, XD-9 SC is my cary gun for wearing a T-shirt or other light clothes. With the extended mag it holds 16+1 and the standard mag holds ten. The P 239 tactical is my every day cary weapon and I really love the design.

  14. #14
    Growler67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbarron57 View Post
    The 9mm will never die for one simple reason, WOMEN. The 9mm is an excellent round for people with smaller hands who cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers.
    A little overly simplistic and chauvanistic opinion with little bearing on the lifespan of the caliber. It was created by accident originally and over time has become THE most unviversally adopted, available and accepted caliber on the planet. When one finds themselve on foreign shores, it only makes good logistical sense to have your equipment chambered in what one might also find there. Domestic defense would be the counter arguement for having something less universal and proprietary.

    If we really feared an invasion, then I would be the first to advocate the adoption of .40S&W as anyone intent on residing long term would HAVE to import their own ammo or otherwise adopt what is found domestically. It's why nearly EVERY other country uses 7.62x39 instead of 5.56x45. The NATO 5.56 round will NEVER be as common or universally available as the 7.62x39 anymore than the same application of 9mm respectively for handguns. BTW, most European countries also employ 9mm in carbines as well.

  15. #15
    SigDoubleTap is offline Junior Member
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    9mm and girls

    The 9mm will never die for one simple reason, WOMEN. The 9mm is an excellent round for people with smaller hands who cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers. It does have many other advantages to. It can be loaded into a smaller, more compact platform without sacrificing capacity and it is a very accurate round even past 25 yards. I have 2 9's. The SA XD-9 subcompact and the Sig Saur P-239. The SA, XD-9 SC is my cary gun for wearing a T-shirt or other light clothes. With the extended mag it holds 16+1 and the standard mag holds ten. The P 239 tactical is my every day cary weapon and I really love the design.

    I'm a 39 year old SWF. I'm an accountant, not a ballistics expert, though I do know about guns and most ammo. Some would describe me as a waife, being thin, but...I have stated many times I like solid metal handguns. 39 ounces is fine by me. Bang bang. My signature double tap w/ little muzzle flip. Personally, I can conceal my P226 and even my friends Kimber Warrior, under a tee shirt. I don't believe in mouse guns. Hmmm would you rather pull out a 14 ounce CZ w/a 2.5 inch barrel, or a P226 in a gunfight? True most of my girls I shoot with have smaller hands, but we use guns that we can easily reach the trigger with. 80% of my friends love my Sig, and are very comfortable shooting it. Sara is actually getting herself a 228 or similar gun. She needs a single stack, but definately wants a Sig.




    If you research the load data you will find that SOME companys load their 115 gr FMJ loads to a sufficient higher speed to actually have MORE Ft Lbs of energy that the 124 and 147 grain loads. Energy is the resultant of BOTH bullet mass AND speed. Just going to more bullet weight dont create it.

    I have to debate this. Handgun bullets depend on a crushing wound channel. Not hydrostatic shock. A +P+ 115 grain with 490 ftlbs is less effective than a 147 with 300. I believe this is right. A handgun bullet won't create a big enough wound channel. Crushing wound channel. S.D.




    Thanks for confirming NATO 9mm specs, and FMJ restrictions.

    Jannet and Sara

  16. #16
    Growler67's Avatar
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    For a single stack (for Sara) I would recommend looking into a P239 which is available in 9mm, .357SIG and .40 S&W or one of the P6/P225's that are now available though out of production. Single stack and available in 9mm only. There are many vendors that carry them and cannot say anything bad about Tom and his staff at TopGunSupply.com. Like I said there are meny that have the P6/P225's in stock and TGS is just one vendor, but I have dealt with TGS several times and their service is beyond excellent in many regards.

    Good luck in finding Saraa suitable shooting companion

  17. #17
    VAMarine's Avatar
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  18. #18
    Sully2 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigDoubleTap View Post
    "If you research the load data you will find that SOME companys load their 115 gr FMJ loads to a sufficient higher speed to actually have MORE Ft Lbs of energy that the 124 and 147 grain loads. Energy is the resultant of BOTH bullet mass AND speed. Just going to more bullet weight dont create it."

    I have to debate this. Handgun bullets depend on a crushing wound channel. Not hydrostatic shock. A +P+ 115 grain with 490 ftlbs is less effective than a 147 with 300. I believe this is right. A handgun bullet won't create a big enough wound channel. Crushing wound channel. S.D.
    YOU have lots more to learn!

  19. #19
    Sully2 is offline Banned
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    Interesting! I was always TOLD it was the Geneva Convention. I guess an old dog still can learn new tricks..huh?....

  20. #20
    hideit's Avatar
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    growler67
    you left off one step regarding the FBI
    they first went to the 10mm but almost all agents didn't like the horsepower
    so then they went to the .40

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