The 9mm is here to stay until ray guns are available. The Military still uses .45s pending on specific unit etc. and yes the Military uses FMJ only in all small arms that fire such projectiles. The NATO 9mm round leaves a lot to be desired when compared to more "modern" bullet designs which is why many are clamoring for the change, if an alternate chambering were to be used other than the 9mm NATO cartridge, I think there would be more happy campers.

Originally Posted by VAMarine

The 9mm is here to stay until ray guns are available.

No, 9mm is not a dying breed.

Geneva convention dictates that small arms ammunition be "FMJ".

The days of 9mm will be over when another caliber is MORE universally available and adopted worldwide. If the .40 was THE best ever invented, why has it NOT been around as long as 9mm or .45? I'm still not sold on the "new girl in school" anymore than I have been impressed by it in anything I have "test driven" it in (BTW, still NOT impressed enough to own one).

The .45 was not developed for penetration. It was developed to put more mass (lead) on targed than anything available at the time was capable of providing. The penetration arguement has been at the core of the "Great Caliber Debate" forever. Like the "what's the best gun" question that keeps appearing everywhere, whatever an individual is most comfortable and proficient with (in firearm and/or caliber) is going to be the BEST choice for that individual.

It really is THAT simple.

Originally Posted by SigDoubleTap

I have shot dozens calibers in multiple platforms. I chose the 9mm because it offered everything. I chose a Sig P226 because it was the best.

Overpenetration is crap in my book. Is everyone supposed to hit the target with one perfect shot...hell no. Therefore a .22 can be leathal to others and have overpenetration issues. Fact, there is so much controversy due to the lack of penetration the FBI's 115 grain bullets had. ( Miami Shootout) If they had 124 +P's or 147's, the story would have been re written.

I have been hearing a lot of smack talk against the 9mm. About it not taking down the enemy. True more mass = more energy transfer. This is why I use 147 grain ammo, and also have some 124 gr +P's. I like the push of the 147's, less muzzle climb and a snap than a 115 grain.

I know the .45 was developed for penetration, at the time 9mm's were small, light, and nothing like todays ammo. Did you know that the military actually denied the original Browning .45, wanting more weight, the 230 grain, knowing the slower heavier bullet would perform better. The 147's I use go as deep as any .45 on the market. Up to 16 inches in 10% gel. Way past FBI protocol of 12".



So, what are your views on the 9mm. Is it a dying breed? Everyone is talking about how the military should switch, but aren't they limited to 115 grain FMJ ammo? The stuff I trust for target practice only. Plus everyone else is switching to the .40's and .45's. Is the 9mm going to be forgotten? I believe, with the right loading, the 9mm, which has been around over 90 years, is a superb man stopper, which can outperform many larger calibers.



Personally, if I ever am put into immenent danger, where leathal force is warranted, I'm going to shoot until the target stops moving. It doesn't matter if it's a 9mm or a .45. I'll empty the mag into the bastard.

Aside from any .40 or .45 platforms, I believe the P226 is the finest gun made ( Aside from other Sig 9mm's), and I love it, trust it, and use it every week.



Jannet

If a person gleans some of the self "chest beating" from your post some obvious errors appear. "Over penetration".. ANY bullet that doesnt expend 100% of its energy ( impossible) and remain WITHIN the "body" of the "target" ( assuming it be human being) is WASTED ENERGY.

If you research the load data you will find that SOME companys load their 115 gr FMJ loads to a sufficient higher speed to actually have MORE Ft Lbs of energy that the 124 and 147 grain loads. Energy is the resultant of BOTH bullet mass AND speed. Just going to more bullet weight dont create it.

The 45 ACP was developed NOT for "penetration" but to give a calvary officer the EQUIVALENT of the old 45 revolver load but in a different weapon holding more ammo.
The military isnt limited to 115 gr ammo..but they are limited to FMJ

Regardless the 9mm isnt dead..not by a long shot. Is the Sig the "best on earth"?? They are good..no doubt but I chose the SW MP 9mm because of a smaller lighter package. Price difference didnt mean jack squat to me personally.

Put you in "imminent danger"? Lord I hope not but if it happens I hope Im in the next town by the way you intend on spraying bullets around!

Originally Posted by Growler67

The days of 9mm will be over when another caliber is MORE universally available and adopted worldwide. If the .40 was THE best ever invented, why has it NOT been around as long as 9mm or .45? I'm still not sold on the "new girl in school" anymore than I have been impressed by it in anything I have "test driven" it in (BTW, still NOT impressed enough to own one).

The .45 was not developed for penetration. It was developed to put more mass (lead) on targed than anything available at the time was capable of providing. The penetration arguement has been at the core of the "Great Caliber Debate" forever. Like the "what's the best gun" question that keeps appearing everywhere, whatever an individual is most comfortable and proficient with (in firearm and/or caliber) is going to be the BEST choice for that individual.

It really is THAT simple.

I agree!
The .40 is a great "caliber"...but its a "jacked up" loading that too many cant handle well

the 9x19 is going to be around for awhile. mostly because it's cheap, it does do the nessacary job, and in the case of your BG being a drug crazy lunatic you've got more ammo to incapacitate him than with others.

the navy, coast guard, army and I believe even the marines use the M9 Berretta 92fs. they all also have the sig 226 available for conceal carry purposes (or if your CO thinks he's cool). there's other handguns out their for smaller niche military communities who have special needs for their purposes', but the garden variety are all 9 mil.

why do they all use that round? it works, and it's cheap relatively cheap.

I intend to purchase something in a .45 acp when I get back stateside to be my main carry weapon, but I'm also likely to purchase something in 9mm compact as either a back up, or primary when the .45 is too large for the attire I'm wearing that day. only thing faster then a practised reload is drawing a second weapon in condition one and pulling the trigger.

9mil will be around for awhile. people may not brag about it much, especially on a forum like this which seems to very much learn towards the heavier rounds, but the market will still exist.

Bullet technology has made the 9mm round very versatile, allowing a person to cheaply practice with 'powderpuff' practice loads, and then load out for self defense with high performance hollow points that will make a wound almost as devastating as a .45.

I think it may be around for another hundred years.

9mm is not going anywhere. It has been around for a long time, and will be around for a long time.
There are just a lot of people stuck in the past where 9mm performance is concerned.
Just keep shooting your 9mm and having fun.

the 9mm will be over when
NATO changes
cost of 45acp ammo is the same as 9mm
police departments are given $M's to change
if the FBI hadn't gone to .40 that caliber would be a thing of the past
i still wonder why the Homeland Defense went to 357sig

Originally Posted by hideit

i still wonder why the Homeland Defense went to 357sig

Because it was already in the Governments inventory as the choice of the Secret Service (SiG P229 in that chambering - and still is) and so instead of going through a series of "tests" and contract competitions, they just adopted what was already available when the new Department was created. One of the deciding factors for the Secret Service adopting the caliber was it's performance in defeating auto glass (just one of many). The higher velocity (that 9mm) and same bullet diameter/profile provided better (more desirable) performance than 9mm. The .45 being subsonic and larger diameter/profile fell well short of the perfomance profile they sought.

The FBI has a history of making maverick decisions and thus went for the compromise caliber in .40 S&W. Bigger than 9mm (for those that accept the position that 9mm is too small to be effective) yet smaller and higher capacity that .45 (for those that accept the postion that bigger hole is better). Not discounting the possibility that exclusivity wasn't a factor in the decision - a derivitive of the "be American, buy American" creedo that was prevalent at the time the caliber was introduced. No other agency (worldwide) would copy the FBI as most other agencies go with 9mm worldwide as it is avaialable anywhere on the planet.

The 9mm will never die for one simple reason, WOMEN. The 9mm is an excellent round for people with smaller hands who cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers. It does have many other advantages to. It can be loaded into a smaller, more compact platform without sacrificing capacity and it is a very accurate round even past 25 yards. I have 2 9's. The SA XD-9 subcompact and the Sig Saur P-239. The SA, XD-9 SC is my cary gun for wearing a T-shirt or other light clothes. With the extended mag it holds 16+1 and the standard mag holds ten. The P 239 tactical is my every day cary weapon and I really love the design.

Originally Posted by redbarron57

The 9mm will never die for one simple reason, WOMEN. The 9mm is an excellent round for people with smaller hands who cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers.

A little overly simplistic and chauvanistic opinion with little bearing on the lifespan of the caliber. It was created by accident originally and over time has become THE most unviversally adopted, available and accepted caliber on the planet. When one finds themselve on foreign shores, it only makes good logistical sense to have your equipment chambered in what one might also find there. Domestic defense would be the counter arguement for having something less universal and proprietary.

If we really feared an invasion, then I would be the first to advocate the adoption of .40S&W as anyone intent on residing long term would HAVE to import their own ammo or otherwise adopt what is found domestically. It's why nearly EVERY other country uses 7.62x39 instead of 5.56x45. The NATO 5.56 round will NEVER be as common or universally available as the 7.62x39 anymore than the same application of 9mm respectively for handguns. BTW, most European countries also employ 9mm in carbines as well.

The 9mm will never die for one simple reason, WOMEN. The 9mm is an excellent round for people with smaller hands who cannot handle the recoil of larger calibers. It does have many other advantages to. It can be loaded into a smaller, more compact platform without sacrificing capacity and it is a very accurate round even past 25 yards. I have 2 9's. The SA XD-9 subcompact and the Sig Saur P-239. The SA, XD-9 SC is my cary gun for wearing a T-shirt or other light clothes. With the extended mag it holds 16+1 and the standard mag holds ten. The P 239 tactical is my every day cary weapon and I really love the design.

I'm a 39 year old SWF. I'm an accountant, not a ballistics expert, though I do know about guns and most ammo. Some would describe me as a waife, being thin, but...I have stated many times I like solid metal handguns. 39 ounces is fine by me. Bang bang. My signature double tap w/ little muzzle flip. Personally, I can conceal my P226 and even my friends Kimber Warrior, under a tee shirt. I don't believe in mouse guns. Hmmm would you rather pull out a 14 ounce CZ w/a 2.5 inch barrel, or a P226 in a gunfight? True most of my girls I shoot with have smaller hands, but we use guns that we can easily reach the trigger with. 80% of my friends love my Sig, and are very comfortable shooting it. Sara is actually getting herself a 228 or similar gun. She needs a single stack, but definately wants a Sig.

If you research the load data you will find that SOME companys load their 115 gr FMJ loads to a sufficient higher speed to actually have MORE Ft Lbs of energy that the 124 and 147 grain loads. Energy is the resultant of BOTH bullet mass AND speed. Just going to more bullet weight dont create it.

I have to debate this. Handgun bullets depend on a crushing wound channel. Not hydrostatic shock. A +P+ 115 grain with 490 ftlbs is less effective than a 147 with 300. I believe this is right. A handgun bullet won't create a big enough wound channel. Crushing wound channel. S.D.




Thanks for confirming NATO 9mm specs, and FMJ restrictions.

Jannet and Sara

For a single stack (for Sara) I would recommend looking into a P239 which is available in 9mm, .357SIG and .40 S&W or one of the P6/P225's that are now available though out of production. Single stack and available in 9mm only. There are many vendors that carry them and cannot say anything bad about Tom and his staff at TopGunSupply.com. Like I said there are meny that have the P6/P225's in stock and TGS is just one vendor, but I have dealt with TGS several times and their service is beyond excellent in many regards.

Good luck in finding Saraa suitable shooting companion

The Geneva Convention does not address ammunition, that's the Hague Convention(s).

Originally Posted by SigDoubleTap

"If you research the load data you will find that SOME companys load their 115 gr FMJ loads to a sufficient higher speed to actually have MORE Ft Lbs of energy that the 124 and 147 grain loads. Energy is the resultant of BOTH bullet mass AND speed. Just going to more bullet weight dont create it."

I have to debate this. Handgun bullets depend on a crushing wound channel. Not hydrostatic shock. A +P+ 115 grain with 490 ftlbs is less effective than a 147 with 300. I believe this is right. A handgun bullet won't create a big enough wound channel. Crushing wound channel. S.D.

YOU have lots more to learn!

Originally Posted by VAMarine

The Geneva Convention does not address ammunition, that's the Hague Convention(s).

Interesting! I was always TOLD it was the Geneva Convention. I guess an old dog still can learn new tricks..huh?....

growler67
you left off one step regarding the FBI
they first went to the 10mm but almost all agents didn't like the horsepower
so then they went to the .40

Are the days of the 9mm over?

a better question is - Are the days of the .40 and 45acp over? - FOR THE AVERAGE CITIZEN

without deep pockets - that ammo is expensive
you can shoot/practice far more with the 9mm

heck - there are a lot of interesting articles and info lately that 22's are picking up more than ever - who ever dreamed of an AR-15 in 22lr directly from smith or colt

I would bet .380 will go before 9mm will... but probably both will still be here after I am long gone.

The Capitol Police also use the .40S&W. During my most recent visit to Washington I spoke to one of the officers noting that he had a nice looking Glock-Was it a 23 I asked? no he said a 40. Well I knew what I was asking and perhaps he didn't understand me.

The .40 is becoming very popular amongst shooters, like yours truly, law enforcement and military special units. Unit prices are decreasing and they are almost as cheap to reload as the 9mm.

As far as survivor tactics I have also purchased a 9mm barrel and magazines for my P229, so in case of Armageddon I'm good to go.

Originally Posted by hideit

growler67
you left off one step regarding the FBI
they first went to the 10mm but almost all agents didn't like the horsepower
so then they went to the .40

You are correct. I cut straight to the chase without the full history. I consider the 10mm to be an experiment, still ongoing but an experiment nevertheless. A long running fluke if you will. .45GAP was on the dinosaur list as soon as it came out, IMO. The Delta Elite was something I looked at when it first came out. I wasn't impressed. I chose the universally available route back then and continue to utilize it for the many reasons that there are. Cheaper, availability, makes for more trigger time which leads to higher degree of proficiency which means I can place my shots and disregard those advocates of a bigger caliber being a better choice. YMMV

Originally Posted by Sully2

YOU have lots more to learn!

Could you expound upon what is contrary? Terminal Ballistics is only truly applicable in rifles and not in handguns, with a few specific exceptions. The characteristics of the one shot drop only apply with rifle calibers. Handguns, again with a few specific exceptions, can NOT deliver the same kind of performance. Secondary effect wounding is part and parcel to how and why handgun round development has come such a long way in the last 20~ years. Rapid expansion, less fragmentation (except where that is the intent of the design) and all the other factors involved in the current production of SD/HD rounds is all about inducing a wound cavity. Shot placement has ALWAYS been my personal stance of advocation so that a vital organ or other critical part of anatomy is struck by the bullet (should I ever have to perform such a task). Bullet development (especially in JHP) has incorporated the creation of a wound cavity as an additional and intentional by product.

Getting a modern Hollow Point to expand rapidly ensures the effects occurr as the manufacturer intended by design. It also allows for the best possibility of the bullet remaining within the target so as to attempt to deliver that elusive "stopping power" that in handgun is a misinterpreted and misrepresented fallicy. Lighter weight bullets generally have higher velocities that heavier ones but I will and have gladly traded away a few hundred FPS over delivering more mass (weight) on target. It's why I currently run with 147gr JHP's instead of the 124's. Strike bone and the energy transfer is more significant with a heavier bullet than a lighter faster one.

The FMJ (ball ammo) tangent is for another thread, IMO.