How to ban guns.

This article came to my attention via an email from VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League) of
which I am a member. I thought that in light of the recent events at Newtown and the subsequent efforts on the part of the news media and our elected officials to "just do something", this article needed to be seen by as many in the gun culture as possible.

This is the dirty little secret of anti-gunners. During "normal" times, they like to say that they have no plans to disarm Americans, that they support the Second Amendment, and that they believe we
should be able to continue to hunt and use firearms for sporting purposes. But then along comes Newtown and suddenly the cat's out of the bag (again) with calls for everything from registration to total confiscation. What these people don't seem to understand is the fly in the ointment; the unintended consequences of their wishes should they be turned into actions and reality.

Regarding this article, think about who is going to be responsible for confiscation. He mentions state police, but I am going to bet that in a number of states, the state police are probably not going to take kindly to gathering up citizens' firearms. Same goes for sheriffs and local police. People know where they live or can find out, and these officers don't want their homes burned to the ground nor do they want to wind up getting killed. So confiscation is not going to be a simple task in most of the states in the nation. There will be blood and it will not be a pretty thing. And in many states, you can bet the police will simply refuse to do this. So who does that leave? The military? Can't use them because of Posse Comitatus, though if it reaches that point nothing would surprise me. And if they did go with the military, many of them would refuse since it would be an illegal order and they would be in violation of their oath of service, aside from the fact that they would not support such an order because they know what might be happening in their home towns.

So read this article when you have the time and offer your comments. This is what many, (most??), anti-gun people really want. I know because I have pressed some of them hard enough in discussions that they finally popped and let out what they really thought. It's because of people like that, that we need to keep our arms.

As always, comments are welcomed and encouraged.

Daily Kos: How to Ban Guns: A step by step, long term process

I fear that there may be blood in the streets like you say, turning one against another. It will divide the country like the civil war did. I hope it doesnt get that far, and that something can be done to stop the current admin. from doing something stupid. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Harryball

I fear that there may be blood in the streets like you say, turning one against another. It will divide the country like the civil war did. I hope it doesnt get that far, and that something can be done to stop the current admin. from doing something stupid. Time will tell.

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I agree. I do not wish to see my country torn apart in a violent conflagration. But should the time come when the Constitution is set aside, is in effect disbanded, and the mass confiscation of private arms begins, I see no alternative but to rise up in arms and do what the Declaration of Independence has reserved for us to do in such extremes.

They may lay down in Great Britain, and Australia, not Americans. Thomas Jefferson would be all in for that;

"...What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify is a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure...." - Thomas Jefferson: Letter to Colonel Smith, Nov. 13, 1787.

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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy

Regarding this article, think about who is going to be responsible for confiscation. He mentions state police, but I am going to bet that in a number of states, the state police are probably not going to take kindly to gathering up citizens' firearms. Same goes for sheriffs and local police. People know where they live or can find out, and these officers don't want their homes burned to the ground nor do they want to wind up getting killed. So confiscation is not going to be a simple task in most of the states in the nation. There will be blood and it will not be a pretty thing. And in many states, you can bet the police will simply refuse to do this. So who does that leave? The military? Can't use them because of Posse Comitatus, though if it reaches that point nothing would surprise me. And if they did go with the military, many of them would refuse since it would be an illegal order and they would be in violation of their oath of service, aside from the fact that they would not support such an order because they know what might be happening in their home towns.

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Well, ATF will probably be one of the organizations involved, usually they can get federal boys to run errands like these. Historically the ATF is good at disarming civilians (think in the '90s in the Waco siege)

The military can and will confiscate our guns eventually as well. The procedure is even in their manuals and they have special training programs (I can cite this from multiple websites and news reports if you would like)

Lastly, your going to see in LEO departments a divide, your overly loyal police officers (and some of their commanders) wouldn't think twice about disarming citizens if given the order and proper search warrants.

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Originally Posted by jakeleinen1

Well, ATF will probably be one of the organizations involved, usually they can get federal boys to run errands like these. Historically the ATF is good at disarming civilians (think in the '90s in the Waco siege)

The military can and will confiscate our guns eventually as well. The procedure is even in their manuals and they have special training programs (I can cite this from multiple websites and news reports if you would like)

Lastly, your going to see in LEO departments a divide, your overly loyal police officers (and some of their commanders) wouldn't think twice about disarming citizens if given the order and proper search warrants.

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Thanks for your input.

The ATF doesn't have enough people to do the job nationwide. They would not be able to manage something like this.

My last place of employment was with a major defense contractor; one of our largest. As such, it was common for military personnel to be in the building for training and lectures. I made it a point to ask some of them (usually officers) this question [paraphrased]. "If the military was issued an order from the executive branch to begin the process of private firearms confiscation, what do you think they would do"? To a man, they said that most wouldn't comply. Some would but most would feel that it would be in direct conflict with their oath of service, an illegal order, AND in violation of the Constitution.

Police in smaller towns and even not so small towns in many might give second thought before trying to go door to door to confiscate firearms. And I think several states have laws against this. Add to this the fact that the sheriff can deputize as many people as he may need to make arrests. And sheriffs can arrest virtually anyone, including federal agents and local and state police. But I'm sure there will be some police who will go along with this. And I'm sure some of those will be killed in their attempts.

None of this paints a pretty picture and it's not suppose to look pretty and sweet and nice. Evil people can do some ugly things. The British were known to burn colonists alive. Ultimately, let's hope that 300 million private firearms owned by over 90 million Americans is enough of a deterrent against an out of control government.

The ATF most likely will usually confiscate people they consider high value targets (groups of people with alot of firearms unwilling to give them up) for confiscating high.

Acouple gun owners will turn in their own guns when asked by the government, so you don't really need to think of this as a "every gun owner is going to step up to the plate" far from the truth sadely. Theres gun owners whose wives don't want them armed and they give in, what do you think they will say to the government when they ask...

We've systematically become a society that gives in to pressure, we've been conditioned to be this way.

I don't see confiscation realistically in the near future, I see heavy and I mean ridiculous regulations to possibly pass which are just as bad. Another member posted the specifics, laws making a person wanting to grandfather have to fill in pages and pages of paper work sending info to the ATF and other governmental departments. Despite that they will have problems confiscating guns I do not doubt I may see the day when they try. Theres already tons of flouride in the water and mercury in the vaccines, the gov't is pretty good at doing things on the DL.

And thats my main message, is most of us wont know gun confiscation is happening until they are at your door. The revolution will not be televised as they say. And if you don't believe me, research all the citizens they confiscated arms from last year...

I would hate to see this country ever torn apart, but saying that it is better to be on the side that grows the food, owns the firearms and controls the majority of the land. It would be terrible but a siege on major cities that don't have to ablity to provide for themselves might remind them they only think they are in control. If the trucks stoped running for 72hours most large cities would stop having basic goods. Now I would never want to see the country come to such things but I'm always amazed at how some are willing to tell others how they should live.

They would definetly have a fight on their hands Not one person that I know would surrender their guns nor would I. We would all raise up in a mallisia against to local and fedral goverments. If a knock came ion our doors i could honsetly say to expect alot of sudden gun fire and alot of sudden death on both sides.

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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy

I agree. I do not wish to see my country torn apart in a violent conflagration. But should the time come when the Constitution is set aside, is in effect disbanded, and the mass confiscation of private arms begins, I see no alternative but to rise up in arms and do what the Declaration of Independence has reserved for us to do in such extremes.

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Shoulder to shoulder we will stand.

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Originally Posted by Vector16

They would definetly have a fight on their hands Not one person that I know would surrender their guns nor would I. We would all raise up in a mallisia against to local and fedral goverments. If a knock came ion our doors i could honsetly say to expect alot of sudden gun fire and alot of sudden death on both sides.

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Please don't mis-understand my stance on this, I agree with everyone here that we have the right to bear arms. But, think this through once. If someone honestly came knocking at your door, and stated they were here by instructions from the U.S. government to confiscate any of your weapons, do you really think you'll have an opportunity, or the balls to just open fire on them? Have you thought about what would happen next? Now, you would not only have lost any possible right to have a weapon, but you've also lost your right to live in society. I know, I know, who wants to live in a society where you can't protect yourself, right? But, you'd rather be in prison? If you think you've lost rights when they take away guns, wait until you're in prison. I know it's fun to say, "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hand", but at some point, you have to be realistic about whether you're going to shoot someone for knocking on your door and asking for your guns.
People, we have no rights really. We do, until they decide to take them away from you. Then they're gone. It's a man made thing, these rights. And rights are never taken away all at once. They chip away at them. Make it harder and harder for you to exercise your rights, until some point you give up because it's just too expensive, too much of a hassle, or both.

I"m not trying to sound like someone who's in favor of having the 2nd amendment taken away, but I have to stay realistic. If that day ever comes, I'm certainly not going to prison because I shot someone taking my gun away. I'd probably give up my gun, then buy another on a black market.

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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy

...But should the time come when the Constitution is set aside, is in effect disbanded, and the mass confiscation of private arms begins, I see no alternative but to rise up in arms and do what the Declaration of Independence has reserved for us to do in such extremes.

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I would describe it as supporting and defending the Constitution against all enemies, as a great many of us have sworn to do.

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Originally Posted by Haas

Please don't mis-understand my stance on this, I agree with everyone here that we have the right to bear arms. But, think this through once. If someone honestly came knocking at your door, and stated they were here by instructions from the U.S. government to confiscate any of your weapons, do you really think you'll have an opportunity, or the balls to just open fire on them? Have you thought about what would happen next? ....

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And that is exactly the problem faced by the founding fathers. These were not poor folks with little to lose, quite the contrary. And many of them paid dearly (see snopes.com: The Price They Paid: Signers of Declaration of Independence). How many Americans today are so dedicated?

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Originally Posted by Scott9mm

And that is exactly the problem faced by the founding fathers. These were not poor folks with little to lose, quite the contrary. And many of them paid dearly (see snopes.com: The Price They Paid: Signers of Declaration of Independence). How many Americans today are so dedicated?

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Agreed. We like to think we are as dedicated as the founding fathers, but the reality is, unless people have their life threatened, or are desperate in some way, most people would not have the guts to just shoot someone asking for their guns. An intruder threatening your life would be a different story, but a knock on the door, I doubt it would result in gun fire.

What they will do is try to make examples of the first folks they target for confiscation. The first resistors will get jailed and those with jobs, kids etc who are targeted next will think long and hard about pulling a Heston. So there is a lot of tough talk about resisting...I applaud the sentiment but I doubt it going to be so easily done. but they can't put everybody in jail so this tactic has its limits, and an open revolt would likely result before they make any serious inroads into all the guns.

Around my neck of the woods, cops won't hesitate to confiscate firearms. But...

I was thinking about this the other day, how many man-hours do you suppose it would take to confiscate every personal firearm? I'm thinking 10+ man hours per firearm given process, paperwork, multiple personnel house search, legal wrangling, post-processing. That's over 3 trillion man hours. If 1.3 million federal agents, LEOs and military personnel took on the task, it'd take all those people, doing nothing else, over a year to confiscate guns. That's just a starting point, given ther will be lots of soft resistance such as slow-rolling, uncooperativeness. The whole endeavor is likely to crash in on itself by virtue of its size and complexity, and for what? Many antis will question the value of the efforts as it proceeds. Only the most insane grabbers could sustain the effort over years to make it at all effective. IMO.

What was the actual process in Britain?

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If 1.3 million federal agents, LEOs and military personnel took on the task, it'd take all those people, doing nothing else, over a year to confiscate guns.

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Knowing our government, they'd call that "creating jobs".

All of this presupposes ongoing continuous political power by grabbers. Once they start with their plan it becomes a numbers game...are ther enough people who want to proceed with this endeavor to consistently outvote gun owners and sympathizes who are wary of big government? I doubt it.

Either way, they would have a hard time getting everyones guns. There are just too many in this country now. And rather than people putting up a gun fight before giving up their guns, a more likely scenario would be a "cat and mouse" game as to the location of peoples guns. "Lost them in that terrible boating accident", or "they were stolen out of my car while up north" are more likely to be the type of road blocks they would encounter.

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Originally Posted by Scott9mm

I would describe it as supporting and defending the Constitution against all enemies, as a great many of us have sworn to do.

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You are correct. My point was that the Declaration makes specific reference to what should and would need to be done in the event of something as catastrophic as what is being discussed here.

deleted due to duplication

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Originally Posted by Haas

Please don't mis-understand my stance on this, I agree with everyone here that we have the right to bear arms. But, think this through once. If someone honestly came knocking at your door, and stated they were here by instructions from the U.S. government to confiscate any of your weapons, do you really think you'll have an opportunity, or the balls to just open fire on them? Have you thought about what would happen next? Now, you would not only have lost any possible right to have a weapon, but you've also lost your right to live in society. I know, I know, who wants to live in a society where you can't protect yourself, right? But, you'd rather be in prison? If you think you've lost rights when they take away guns, wait until you're in prison. I know it's fun to say, "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hand", but at some point, you have to be realistic about whether you're going to shoot someone for knocking on your door and asking for your guns.
People, we have no rights really. We do, until they decide to take them away from you. Then they're gone. It's a man made thing, these rights. And rights are never taken away all at once. They chip away at them. Make it harder and harder for you to exercise your rights, until some point you give up because it's just too expensive, too much of a hassle, or both.

I"m not trying to sound like someone who's in favor of having the 2nd amendment taken away, but I have to stay realistic. If that day ever comes, I'm certainly not going to prison because I shot someone taking my gun away. I'd probably give up my gun, then buy another on a black market.

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Your points are well taken and I suspect you are pretty much correct in many of them. However, there would be people banning together, fully armed, to resist this unconstitutional intrusion. Imagine a few hundred well armed citizens drawing a line against twenty or thirty local and/or state police. Do you think the police are going to open fire on these people? And if they do, what do you think the people would do? Take a look at what happened in Athens, Georgia in 1946 for example.

I contend that a heck of a lot of police will refuse to carry out any such orders and the same goes for military personnel (but they can't be used anyway - right??). There would be some who would carry out illegal orders such as this but once large pockets of resistance sprung up and shooting started, they may dissolve any sort of disarming ideas.

Any way you look at it, it would be a messy affair and you can bet it would get bloody. I seriously doubt we are going to see confiscation starting up but nothing would surprise me. I think they know that trying something like this would be a bad mistake.

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Imagine a few hundred well armed citizens drawing a line against twenty or thirty local and/or state police. Do you think the police are going to open fire on these people? And if they do, what do you think the people would do? Take a look at what happened in Athens, Georgia in 1946 for example.

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I understand what you're saying. Now, let's go the next step. Or better yet, let's skip right to the endgame. Basically, you've got a well trained and well equipped military with planes, helicopters, bombs, and every weapon imaginable at their disposal, against civilians with some rifles and hand guns. I just wouldn't see it going well for the general public. Yes, it would be illegal for them to use the military, but who's to stop them? Remember, this would be a government that is already trying to eradicate the second amendment, so they don't care what's legal or not.

I dunno, I'm not trying to argue, just talking it out, and thinking it through. Let's just hope it never reaches that point. I kinda doubt it ever would, at least in my lifetime. The type of guns we can own will probably get smaller and smaller, but not taken away completely.

They couldn't use the military, it would be at worst house to house fighting. Couldn't drop bombs first one that land on the militia members beside the daycare and the people that dislike gun would start to understand what they asked for.

One way or another, they will get your gun.


A good article, while we're on this subject....

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters