Was it the Gun or the Ammo?

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07-15-2006, 07:02 PM
Buckeye

Was it the Gun or the Ammo?

I was finishing up breaking in my Taurus PT-145 Millenium Pro today and I now stand at 510 rounds of multiple types with no failures to feed or eject...but while I was going thru a box of Winchester (white box) "Personal Protection" 230gr. JHP's I had 5 failures to fire on the first strike, all five fired on a second strike (love DAO)...but it kind of put me back. I examined as many cases as I could and all looked normal as far as I could tell (of course all had gone off, I probably should have ejected the misfires to check for light strikes, instead of pulling thru). I think I read somewhere that Winchester primers are "harder" than other's but a 10% failure rate, one round of every mag I shot, doesn't cut it as far as personal protection is concerned...it wound me up so much that I went and shot thru all the expensive makes of personal protection boxes I had (Hornady, Black Hills) just to make sure it was only the Winchester WB...nothing else failed to fire, now I'm out a bunch, but that's fine for peace of mind...anyone else have this type of experience with Winchester ammo, or a PT-145? I definately won't use SXT's after that performance.
07-15-2006, 07:12 PM
waterburybob

Since other kinds of ammunition worked perfectly both before and after the Winchester, it does seem to be that ammunition.

I have heard of a higher than normal number of failures to fire with the Winchester white box.
07-15-2006, 07:42 PM
Grayfox

Some guns just have problems with certian brands/types of ammo. As long as your chosen defense load works reliably its not a problem. You can still use the cheaper stuff for practice.
Give the Remington yellow box a try, about the same price as Winchester white box and it may be more reliable.
You also might consider reloading.
07-15-2006, 07:47 PM
Shipwreck

I have heard that a specific brand has hard primers, but I can't remember what the brand was...

I would still shoot a lot of ammo on other brands and KNOW that U have no other issues before relying on that gun for self-defense. Out of all the ammo and guns I have shot for years - I have only had 1 instance where I had to do the second strike - it was WWB, however...
07-15-2006, 08:05 PM
Charlie

Betcha' it was ammo.
07-15-2006, 08:21 PM
Buckeye

The only thing that was concerning me was that I'd shot a good amount of WWB with my H&K and never had any failures to fire whatsoever, probably H&K has stronger firing springs, but the Taurus dents and trademark swipes, were deep on everything I could find (I was showering the next stall with brass, seems the Taurus goes about straight up and just a little bit over, no I wasn't holding it Gangsta style :mrgreen: ) .

I still have another box of Winchester WB JHP's, so when I take them to the range I'm going to eject each failure and see that the dent looks like.

I've had absolutely ZERO other probelems with any of the other 5 types of ammo I've shot out of it.
07-15-2006, 09:18 PM
SuckLead

I'd have to say it was an ammo issue. The only issues I have ever had with ammo was with Winchester white box and Blazer (aluminum and my Sig do not get along for some reason). But if the gun did fine with every other ammo before and after, figure on not buying Winchester anymore.
07-15-2006, 10:10 PM
Shipwreck

Well, remember - if the gun doesn't fire, wait a few moments before ejecting the round. I have heard of hangfires before... It SHOULDN"T go off w/o another hit from the firing pin if it didn't fire right away - but ya never know.

The ONE time it happened to me, I ejected the round, only messed w/ it for a sec or two
07-15-2006, 10:15 PM
Baldy

It's not uncommend to get a bad lot of ammo. It happens with all makes of ammo. Try some more and then see what happens. Winchester primers are extra hard somtimes. It's just the way they make them.
07-16-2006, 05:32 AM
RONNIE J

Even

Hard primers are not always the problem, your second strike would be the same as the first for the strength of the firing pin--but if the primer was not set correctly on the first strike the anvil would not crush the primer--now if the first strike correctly seats the primer then the second strike will fire the round..I had this happen with some Winchester in the past:)
This does not worry me too much with factory ammo for practice--However I think you said this was personnel defense ammo--that I would stay away from for carry--:mrgreen:

Ron
07-16-2006, 09:11 AM
spacedoggy

I had the same problem with Winchester ammo not to long ago. My XD 45 acp did the same thing. I bought the ammo at the range and when I told the owner he pulled all the Winchester ammo he had in 45 acp because others were having problems with it also. He said it was a bad lot and the other cal of Winchester was find. The last time I was there had no problem with the Winchester. I only carry ammo that I have tested and set it aside just for carry.
07-16-2006, 09:28 AM
Maximo

I had the same trouble with WWB in my Taurus pt-111, had to use the second strike capability of the Taurus and the round fired on the second strike. However I have never had a single problem with any other ammo through my Taurus and I have had no other problems with WWB in any other auto. Some guns just don't like some ammo, it is the nature of the beast.
07-16-2006, 10:14 AM
Mike Barham

You'll never read about it in the gun magazines, but at least one run of Millennium Pros had a primer-strike issue, and yours may be one of them. I believe Taurus stopped shipping them for a little while because of the issue, though it is apparently resolved now. Winchester primers aren't especially hard; it's CCI primers that are well-known for their hardness.

Whether it's the gun or the ammo, I'd just quit using the WWB and shoot Blazer or something else cheap for practice.
07-16-2006, 10:24 AM
propellerhead

I've shot over 4,000 rounds of WWB in 9mm. There have been a few bad boxes. I wouldn't give up on it and restrict myself to one brand. Just keep shooting. It's still fun, right?
07-16-2006, 10:29 AM
Thor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barham at Galco

You'll never read about it in the gun magazines, but at least one run of Millennium Pros had a primer-strike issue, and yours may be one of them. I believe Taurus stopped shipping them for a little while because of the issue, though it is apparently resolved now. Winchester primers aren't especially hard; it's CCI primers that are well-known for their hardness.

Whether it's the gun or the ammo, I'd just quit using the WWB and shoot Blazer or something else cheap for practice.

Since my range forbids aluminum or steel cased ammo, I use CCI Blazer Brass.(My local WalMart carries CCI Blazer brass) It's actually less expensive than WWB by a few cents. I have run approx 250 rounds through my PT145 and have had ZERO problems. Some of those were WWB, most were not. Personally, I don't like WWB. It's "OK" at best. I generally have accuracy issues from WWB whereas any other ammo isn't nearly as bad.
07-16-2006, 11:17 AM
Buckeye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barham at Galco

You'll never read about it in the gun magazines, but at least one run of Millennium Pros had a primer-strike issue, and yours may be one of them.

Oh great, something else for me to worry about :smt082, I'd call Taurus and see what serial numbers had the problem, but I've already had a not so helpful customer service experience with them and I doubt the person I'd talk to would let me talk to someone who knows what they're talking about :smt011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor

I use CCI Blazer Brass.(My local WalMart carries CCI Blazer brass) It's actually less expensive than WWB by a few cents.

Yep good stuff, that's what I use for range ammo too, I bought a case of .45 ACP for $8.99 a box at a local gun store's 4th of July sale. I won't use steel or aluminum cased ammo in my guns.
07-16-2006, 01:03 PM
jwkimber45

If you had the problems with only one type/box of ammo, I'd say it was an ammunition problem......
07-17-2006, 09:35 AM
Bob Wright

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor

Since my range forbids aluminum or steel cased ammo,

Never heard of that before! Any reason?
07-17-2006, 09:54 AM
propellerhead

So they can collect all the brass casings and sell them to reloaders without having to sort through all the non-brass ones? Just guessing...
07-17-2006, 10:15 AM
jwkimber45

Quote:

Originally Posted by propellerhead

So they can collect all the brass casings and sell them to reloaders without having to sort through all the non-brass ones? Just guessing...

+1 Some ranges will send the brass off the recycler also.....they don't want any alum. or steel mixed in.
07-17-2006, 10:45 AM
propellerhead

But they would still have to sort between the different calibers. :shrug:
07-17-2006, 12:23 PM
jwkimber45

True......
07-17-2006, 01:45 PM
j.d.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye

I was finishing up breaking in my Taurus PT-145 Millenium Pro today and I now stand at 510 rounds of multiple types with no failures to feed or eject...but while I was going thru a box of Winchester (white box) "Personal Protection" 230gr. JHP's I had 5 failures to fire on the first strike, all five fired on a second strike (love DAO)...but it kind of put me back. I examined as many cases as I could and all looked normal as far as I could tell (of course all had gone off, I probably should have ejected the misfires to check for light strikes, instead of pulling thru). I think I read somewhere that Winchester primers are "harder" than other's but a 10% failure rate, one round of every mag I shot, doesn't cut it as far as personal protection is concerned...it wound me up so much that I went and shot thru all the expensive makes of personal protection boxes I had (Hornady, Black Hills) just to make sure it was only the Winchester WB...nothing else failed to fire, now I'm out a bunch, but that's fine for peace of mind...anyone else have this type of experience with Winchester ammo, or a PT-145? I definately won't use SXT's after that performance.

Yes. Years back with a Marlin 44 magnum rifle. Sometimes, they even jamed in the lever action. Some misfired. Depending where you bought them, they will replace the misfires. Or in the case of hard primers go through a second time. I don't like to do that myself, though.
It happens. Sometimes it can be a bad lot....? At times the brand (cases,...for jamming).
07-18-2006, 09:14 AM
2400

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye

but while I was going thru a box of Winchester (white box) "Personal Protection" 230gr. JHP's I had 5 failures to fire on the first strike, all five fired on a second strike (love DAO)...
I examined as many cases as I could and all looked normal as far as I could tell (of course all had gone off, I probably should have ejected the misfires to check for light strikes, instead of pulling thru).

If this happens again, after you pull the trigger and the round doesn't go off. Wait a few seconds, then eject the round and see what the primer looks like. Did the firing pin hit it, does it look like the ones that did fire, is the hit the same depth? If you can, take a pic and post it for us. If you have several call or email the ammo manufacture and let them know what lot number you're using and what happened. They can't fix something they don't know about.