Recoil is too heavy.

A hypothetical question:

Let us say you have a Glock 27 in 40 caliber. You shoot it accurately at distances of 15 to 25 feet. But your followup shots are slow because of the recoil. You find the follow up shots too slow and want to make a change.

The options I see are:

• Change to a model 26 in 9mm
• Change to a model 23, mid-sized in 40 caliber.
• Change to a heavier gun in the model 27 size (like the CZ which is about 25 oz., and all metal)

or

• Buy a model 29 in 10mm to get you used to the heavy recoil and make the 40 caliber seem light by comparison and thus improving your followup shots.

So which makes the most sense to you?

I had the G26 in 9mm. Traded for the G27 in .40. Big mistake. The 26 was a sweet shooter, damn near perfect for me, the 27 was not (I fell for the "Its the bullet the LEOs are using logic"). I would take the G26 9mm over ANY .40 in any size. The forty is just not better enough to warrant the extra recoil and ammo cost and in a full size (or heavier) gun the nine is a high cap pussycat, and you can get a .45ACP if you want more grunt (why ask why on the 10mm heavy recoil?). Try a G26, please!
Eli :smt1099

Having owned both 26 and 27 (still own and EDC the 27) I say get the 26. I also suggest you get the 29, just because it's 10mm.:mrgreen:

The 26 is much easier for most to shoot. Have you looked at the 19? It's not much more to conceal than the 26 and you have a better sight radius. If you use the pinky extensions on your 27, get a 23 or a 19, it will feel about the same for EDC.

I would go with the 26 personally because the size is good and the second shot is a lot easier to get back on target!

The CZ at 25oz is another fine choice. I am a giant fan of the CZ pistol!

RCG

CZs are cool and well spoken of from what I have seen. I've never had one. But for a compact, me thinks the G26 may be the best 9mm EVER and it is an original "plastic fantastic"! Saving up to get another (Dern Xmas anyway!)
Eli :mrgreen:

My advice?
Stick with the pistol you already have, and ask an expert instructor to teach you better recoil control.
A firmer grip and stiffer arms, maybe?
Drills to help you avoid flinching, maybe?
Physically modify your gun's grips, maybe?
It's not that hard to do, and it'll make you a better pistol shooter all the way across the board.

It's always a temptation to blame the problem on the gun, as the Brady Center does. But you're not shooting a .44 Magnum cannon. The .40 is difficult, but I bet you can master it.
Anyway, changing guns won't help if your technique is bad. But improving your technique will always help, and may completely solve your problem. It's worth a try.

Hard to argue with any point of Steve's response, above (not that I'd want to). :mrgreen:

I'd add that a Glock model 23 magazine and an aftermarket adapter sleeve which slips over the mag and extends the grip of your G27 to G23 length, may give you the control advantages and most of the "feel" of the larger G23, at a fraction of the cost. Unless you get a chance to fire a G23 side-by-side with the G27, you may be surprised to find that the G23 does not kick all that much less (if any; some swear it kicks more).

However, after you apply Steve's remedies, I'd say that the G26 might be a good choice anyway. The less expensive ammo might allow you to shoot up to 50% more for the same amount of money, and more (quality) practice is always a good thing. Quality instruction + lighter kicking weapon + more practice = higher skill level (maybe a LOT higher).

I'd suggest, as some others have, that you consider getting some training to see if that would improve your ability to shoot the .40. I'd also recommend some light weight training to strengthen your wrists and arms.

If you are concerned about carrying, I think the sub-compact Glocks, like the 19, aren't too difficult to conceal if your manner of dress can handle it. I'm only 5'10" and about 145 pounds and a 19 is my EDC. I just wear untucked shirts for the most part.

In the end, though, if the .40 is too tough for you to handle in the small-frame Glocks and that's what you really want to carry (a small-frame Glock), then stick with the 26. Two well-placed shots with a 26 is likely better than one hit and one miss with a 27.

Thanks for the replies. This was all hypothetical. My best shooting gun was a stainless steel Gold Cup in .45.

When I moved to Dutchess County I had to apply for a new permit and dispose of my weapons. I am awaiting the permit now. (You'd think with a 27 year track record and no issues at all over that time that they would rubber-stamp the permit, but no--I had to re-apply just like any new resident).

I was able to repeatably put a full magazine from the .45 in a single hole at 21 feet that was about the size of a quarter. (Not every time, but often enough for me to use the word "repeatedly").

I'm going to get a smaller weapon this time around. I've never been impressed with the 9mm round, though it has improved greatly over the last 20 years. I was also toying with the idea of a baby Glock in .45 (single stack).

But it is good to accumulate information so that I can make a well-reasoned decision in the near future on what weapon(s) to buy.

I like the Sig Sauer .380 (the new single action).

I like the Kel-tec 9mm (single stack) and the new Sig 9mm looks very promising too.

But my first new weapon is going to be a baby Glock. Oh, but what caliber?

I shot a S & W model 29 (6" barrel) very well; but the 2-1/2" barrel gun (round butt) gave me a bone bruise on the base of my thumb. Overall I don't think I'm recoil sensitive, but larger recoils mean longer time for follow up shots.

Regards,


Packard

The .40 S&W shot tends to make a barrel rise. In rapid firing the target must be reacquired after every shot. With enough practice it is possible to learn how to compensate for barrel rise. This is especially true for light frame auto. If you want little or no recoil, pick up a .380; you will likely have a better target pattern than with the 9mm. The issue will then become whether the round you are shooting has sufficient stopping power for the situation. I carry and practice quite a bit with both a .380 and .40.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1

My advice?
Stick with the pistol you already have, and ask an expert instructor to teach you better recoil control.
A firmer grip and stiffer arms, maybe?
Drills to help you avoid flinching, maybe?
Physically modify your gun's grips, maybe?
It's not that hard to do, and it'll make you a better pistol shooter all the way across the board.

It's always a temptation to blame the problem on the gun, as the Brady Center does. But you're not shooting a .44 Magnum cannon. The .40 is difficult, but I bet you can master it.
Anyway, changing guns won't help if your technique is bad. But improving your technique will always help, and may completely solve your problem. It's worth a try.

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I have a G17. I am new to pistol. With the G17, I can get all 17 rnds within the 4" circle at 10yrds. Recoil is a problem because less experienced shooter like me tend to anticipate the recoil and move the barrel. Try dry firing, a lot of it.

However, recoil is a problem. Trying to manage it, is like putting a bandage solution on the problem. My G17 can rise upward to 6" above the aim line, based on the strength of MY grip.

Then I found sprinco.com which sells recoil reducers for many gun models. Skeptical, but at $80 and with an "early adopter" personality, I gave it a try. It replaces the factory spring&rod in the G17 (keep it, don't toss it). It has a nice polished steel finish rod.

Installed and tried at the range. WOW. Recoil now is about 2" upward of the aim line, not quite as soft "butter" as the Sig P226, but EXTREMELY good for a gun weight much less than the P226. The magic happenned as I tried it out: I essentially forgot about the recoil (ie. anticipation of recoil) and was able to think FRONTSIGHT without interruption between shots. I was able to group the first 5 shots within 1.5" of each others at 12yrds.

That's just me. I am sure lessons would help, but getting GOOD equipment to start out with, is a good recommendation and that is what I think the initial posting was trying to get at.

It is a pleasure to shoot my G17 now. Time to focus on lessons. I am new to shooting, less than 700 rounds "old" if you want to get precise.

You could try shooting ammo with lighter bullets. Also I have found that Speer Lawman 180gr has a much stouter kick than say, the Wally World Federal 180gr. I don't use much factory stuff anymore, but see if some 165 gr ammo might be more to your liking. A quick look at Ammo Engine shows a pretty good selection of 165gr loadings, & a few 155gr loads as well.
Aside from that, practice, practice...

Steve:



That could be very misleading. (A firmer grip and stiffer arms, maybe?)



From what I understand, a soft grip and bent arms. If it is a .32 or a .45 it will cycle. When it does, most of the force will be in the palm of your hand and pushing back against your wrist and arm(s). That is just what way it works. The best way to temper that is to keep your elbows bent and very close to each other and bent. If you are doing it right, you should feel the the spent round push your hands, wrists, forearms, elbows and shoulders. Your elbows should act like a shock absorber. So there is no difference between a .32 or a .45. The recoil is all relative. If you are shooting a .32 less. If you are shooting a .45 more.



However, Steve is right at short range. It's the only way to do it. Point and shoot. In that fashion, point and shoot, multiple triple tabs at 10', you have to keep the recoil to a minimum. The only way to do that is, yes, a very stiff hand and a very stiff arm. You are just not allowing the barrel to tip up. Here's the best way to feel that. Point and shoot. If you're standing at the range shooting a shot or two, you'll never feel it. That's why I love the outdoor range. How do you feel the gun without a triple tap? You'll never now.



If we are talking semi-autos, it's all the same. .32, .40, .45. They will all pretty much recoil the same way. The kick will be a bit different, but the method is all the same. Me? I had an HK Variant One (.45). If someone took it to the range and shot a bullet, they may have said it has a serious kick. That's not really true. If you can feel that in your whole chest, it really isn't all that bad.



And if you want to talk ballistics, the .45 is right there. And it kind of shoots the same way. It's not like you're shooting a .44 mag from a revolver. I'm not sure what the big deal is all about. Just a larger charge with a bigger bullet. The barrel still points the same way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiverDog

Steve:



That could be very misleading. (A firmer grip and stiffer arms, maybe?)



From what I understand, a soft grip and bent arms. If it is a .32 or a .45 it will cycle. When it does, most of the force will be in the palm of your hand and pushing back against your wrist and arm(s). That is just what way it works. The best way to temper that is to keep your elbows bent and very close to each other and bent. If you are doing it right, you should feel the the spent round push your hands, wrists, forearms, elbows and shoulders. Your elbows should act like a shock absorber. So there is no difference between a .32 or a .45. The recoil is all relative. If you are shooting a .32 less. If you are shooting a .45 more.



However, Steve is right at short range. It's the only way to do it. Point and shoot. In that fashion, point and shoot, multiple triple tabs at 10', you have to keep the recoil to a minimum. The only way to do that is, yes, a very stiff hand and a very stiff arm. You are just not allowing the barrel to tip up. Here's the best way to feel that. Point and shoot. If you're standing at the range shooting a shot or two, you'll never feel it. That's why I love the outdoor range. How do you feel the gun without a triple tap? You'll never now.



If we are talking semi-autos, it's all the same. .32, .40, .45. They will all pretty much recoil the same way. The kick will be a bit different, but the method is all the same. Me? I had an HK Variant One (.45). If someone took it to the range and shot a bullet, they may have said it has a serious kick. That's not really true. If you can feel that in your whole chest, it really isn't all that bad.



And if you want to talk ballistics, the .45 is right there. And it kind of shoots the same way. It's not like you're shooting a .44 mag from a revolver. I'm not sure what the big deal is all about. Just a larger charge with a bigger bullet. The barrel still points the same way.

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Recoil action changes rather dramatically with barrel length changes.

For example, if you shot a model 29 (44 magnum) in a 6" barrel length, the recoil will cause your arms to raise up (just like you see in the movies).

However, if you shoot a model 29 in a 2-1/2" barrel length, then the recoil will cause the gun to twist back in your wrist more so than lifting your entire arm. A very different set of forces to deal with. The first deals partly with your arm and shoulder strength and partly with your wrist strength.

The second puts most of the emphasis on the wrist.

Pack:

That is very true.

But what I understand to be true, is the machine works one way and then it is only you.

This is the way I see it and I may be wrong. But it works best like this.

When I point and shoot, the blast will only tip up the barrel if there isn't a palm force aginst the lower grip that forces it down. It's not the recycle semi-auto thing. It happends way before that. So their all kind of the same. (smile)

It is the charge that has no way out of the barrel. The charge blast will be the same. Why is tips up is in that fraction of a second, that has the least resestance. Because your barrel will always be on top of the gun, you will forever have that same tip up problem. (smile)

There are two different ways to shoot a handgun. And they both work.

Me? I wish I could be better; but I'm not.

I am just a flat out point and shoot 10' type of shooter. That's why I have the handgun, may as well train that way. And here is where Steve was very correct.

As much as I love the soft hands shock absorber approch, it's misleading.

In a very short period of time, at a very short distance, your handgun will want to tip up. Get over it. The best way to stop that is a very firm grip and rock solid arms and sholders. If you train for that, it really isn't that hard. The machine will only ever cycle and do the same thing. It's just a super sense of where the barrle is pointing.


Triple tap, triple tap, triple tap. Nobody every trains like that. But the one time they will have to use it? That's the way it works.

My real question for this thread (my method of introducing it was too obtuse) is as follows:

If you are a weight lifter and the only poundage you ever lift is 100 pounds, then 100 pounds will always seem heavy to you. However if you push yourself and slowly work up to 150 pounds then when you try to lift 100 pounds it will seem rediculously easy.

It seems that whenever someone gets a .40 caliber gun and the recoil is too heavy they drop back to a 9mm.

My thesis is this: Hang onto the .40 caliber gun and buy a similar gun in 10mm. Then practicing with the 10mm will make the .40 seem "light". It works in weight lifting; it should work with shooting.

But the gut reaction is to scale back to a lighter (and less effective) caliber. I think the approach is wrong and I will test this out shortly with a Glock 27 and a Glock 29 (or maybe a Glock 36 in .45).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Packard

Thanks for the replies. This was all hypothetical. My best shooting gun was a stainless steel Gold Cup in .45.

When I moved to Dutchess County I had to apply for a new permit and dispose of my weapons. I am awaiting the permit now. (You'd think with a 27 year track record and no issues at all over that time that they would rubber-stamp the permit, but no--I had to re-apply just like any new resident).

I was able to repeatably put a full magazine from the .45 in a single hole at 21 feet that was about the size of a quarter. (Not every time, but often enough for me to use the word "repeatedly").

I'm going to get a smaller weapon this time around. I've never been impressed with the 9mm round, though it has improved greatly over the last 20 years. I was also toying with the idea of a baby Glock in .45 (single stack).

But it is good to accumulate information so that I can make a well-reasoned decision in the near future on what weapon(s) to buy.

I like the Sig Sauer .380 (the new single action).

I like the Kel-tec 9mm (single stack) and the new Sig 9mm looks very promising too.

But my first new weapon is going to be a baby Glock. Oh, but what caliber?

I shot a S & W model 29 (6" barrel) very well; but the 2-1/2" barrel gun (round butt) gave me a bone bruise on the base of my thumb. Overall I don't think I'm recoil sensitive, but larger recoils mean longer time for follow up shots.

Regards,


Packard

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Get an M&P45 Compact. Not as snappy as 40 and more comfortable to shoot but still has plenty of energy and is .4" plus. It hides well also.

I switched from M&P40 to M&P45 after 4 years with the 40. The 45 is easier on my arthritic wrists and has proven to be much more accurate.

My 40's both XD Tactical and M&P Full Size were load sensitive.

With the 45, reloads ranging from soft 820 FPS 230 Gr. to hot 1000 FPS 185 Grain all hit within 1/2 inch of each other at 15 yards repeatedly.

Have fun whatever you get.

Also you need to move to a more gun friendly location or better yet lobby for changes in the law where you are at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Packard

Recoil action changes rather dramatically with barrel length changes.

For example, if you shot a model 29 (44 magnum) in a 6" barrel length, the recoil will cause your arms to raise up (just like you see in the movies).

However, if you shoot a model 29 in a 2-1/2" barrel length, then the recoil will cause the gun to twist back in your wrist more so than lifting your entire arm. A very different set of forces to deal with. The first deals partly with your arm and shoulder strength and partly with your wrist strength.

The second puts most of the emphasis on the wrist.

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Packard:

That is so very, very true. Help me.

We are not shooting anything with a +P round. I think I understand how that wants to work.

What you spoke of nobody seems to explain where it makes sense to me. What is it that causes the gun to twist? (small short; semi auto) If my arms are cocked in such a fashion that everything is forward, what will cause the gun to twist? Nobody ever explained that where it made any sense to me.

It can't be the gun (in my mind). If you held it by a sting, I would only cycle back and take the least resistance. It might have a small tendence to move left or right, but nothing you would ever feel in your hand.

I would think there would have to be an unequal pressure in your hands? And then the gun may twist to the least resistance. Is that true?


I am a dick shit asshole shooter. My days for sight shooting are over. I don't have the time now to explain. But I feel I am a very good shooter from a short distance. Point and shoot. If you explain to me what I should be feeling in my hands, I will understand it.

This is the way I shoot. (ten yards) Let's say it is a .32 semi-auto. My right and left hands are very soft. I undercup my left hand to allow my two arms to be equal. And bend my elbows a bit to absorb the recoil of the gun as much as possible. I think I do that very well right now. I have very good control of the handgun.

Explain to me what makes a 2" barrel want to twist and how you control that.

I do thank you.

Pete

In a nut shell. the Beretta Tomcat was just fine. It is a very nice handgun. Very nice quality.

There are no "twisting" problems. That are no other problems I can think of now. (smile)

It is a beautifully milled handgun. That is what I love. There is something about the beauty. I am more of a collector.

As long as it cycles and cycles and cycles. I don't care. (smile)

It is a very, very beautiful .32 pistol. That is what I love about it.

I had the Beretta 950, single action .25. It always worked. I kept in my back pocket for so long that there was no bluing left on the gun. But the caliber was too light.

I preferred the single action. It was smaller, lighter and narrower.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Packard

I had the Beretta 950, single action .25. It always worked. I kept in my back pocket for so long that there was no bluing left on the gun. But the caliber was too light.

I preferred the single action. It was smaller, lighter and narrower.

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Pac:

Funny you should mention the .25. I have an Uncle that took one from the boot of a dead man in the "Battle of the Bulge." It's a "Unique" .25 semi-auto. I tried to work it back to shape, but started calling it the jam-o-matic. It was brutal. I could never empty the mag without it jamming somewhere in between. And believe me, I worked the gun. Just for him.

I got it to a point where is shot okay. But it was just totally unreliable. I was getting frustrated. Very frustrated.

And then all of the hard work paid off. It was the magazine. The gun is okay, the magazine is sorry. So I played with the spring more than I want to admit. That failed. (buying a magazine for that gun is impossible) I just have to give up and let a real gunsmith do it. The guy as my shop said his gunsmith could probably do it. When I told him Unique, he just smiled. He thought his smith could refit the magazine. If that is the real problem is anyone's guess. I really don't want to pump a lot of money into it, but I am convinced the problem is in the magazine.

It's a collectors thing. It doesn't have the Nazi symbol, but came from France at that time. It's not a money thing. It's really not worth all that much. Make the whole thing right and let the 88 year old man shoot it at the range will be interesting. (smile)

He can tell you some strange and sad cold stories that happen in Belgium.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Packard

A hypothetical question:

Let us say you have a Glock 27 in 40 caliber. You shoot it accurately at distances of 15 to 25 feet. But your followup shots are slow because of the recoil. You find the follow up shots too slow and want to make a change.

The options I see are:

• Change to a model 26 in 9mm
• Change to a model 23, mid-sized in 40 caliber.
• Change to a heavier gun in the model 27 size (like the CZ which is about 25 oz., and all metal)

or

• Buy a model 29 in 10mm to get you used to the heavy recoil and make the 40 caliber seem light by comparison and thus improving your followup shots.

So which makes the most sense to you?

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Get to the gym ASAP.....go now, don't wait...go, go, go!!!!!...btw, pick up something while you're there!!!!!