Cocked and locked decocker single/double action CONFUSION!

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06-22-2009, 07:19 PM
NinjaCat

Cocked and locked decocker single/double action CONFUSION!

Ok, so I'm pretty new to the world of handguns (bought a S&W M&P 40 and a Taurus 1911 .45 within the last three months) and to this site (first post) and I thought I had a pretty good grasp of the basics of how handguns function. Turns out I don't. I hope someone out there can help me with this conundrum:

I've been looking for a CCW weapon, and one of the guns I've been thinking about is the Bersa Ultra Compact. I went to Gander Mountain yesterday and tried one out, and to my sweet surprise, found out that they have both an ambi safety and slide release (I'm a lefty). Now one of my desires for a CCW gun is that every trigger pull be the same weight. I really don't like it when the first pull is a half mile long and 14 lbs while the rest are short and sweet. Trying out the Bersa, I got excited when I thought I could put the gun in a cocked and locked mode (condition 1?) which would be perfect for me. I cocked back the hammer and attempted to put the safety on when I heard a *click* and the hammer released. I tried again and got the same result. I then discovered that this Bersa must have a safety that seconds as a decocker, meaning for a first shot I would have a long double action pull followed by single action pulls (either that, or I would walk around with the gun cocked and NOT locked). I found a used Stoeger Cougar (also with an ambi safety) at GM that came with 4 mags at a great price and thought about getting it, but when I tried to set it up for cocked and locked, the safety acted as a decocker, and my heart broke for a second time. I had looked at these guns on sites like budsgunshop and able ammo, and they said nothing about the safeties being decockers also.

So here's my questions: Do ALL single/double action guns have safeties that second as decockers? Is there a way to tell without trying every single gun out for myself? For even trigger pulls are the only options single action only and striker-fired guns (1911s and Glocks and such)? I was excited because the Bersa had all the features I was looking for at a great price, EXCEPT for the ability to be carried in condition 1. Aww shucks. I suppose I could walk around with the guns cocked but not locked (my M&P 40's only safety is the trigger itself, so it'd kinda be the same, I guess).
06-22-2009, 09:34 PM
PhilR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaCat

So here's my questions: Do ALL single/double action guns have safeties that second as decockers? Is there a way to tell without trying every single gun out for myself? For even trigger pulls are the only options single action only and striker-fired guns (1911s and Glocks and such)? I was excited because the Bersa had all the features I was looking for at a great price, EXCEPT for the ability to be carried in condition 1. Aww shucks. I suppose I could walk around with the guns cocked but not locked (my M&P 40's only safety is the trigger itself, so it'd kinda be the same, I guess).

Most DA's are de-cockers, but not all. The CZ 85 Combat is a DA that you can cock and lock. I think that some H&K's are the same too, but I'm not sure as I only have one H&K and it doesn't do either.

The way to tell without trying the pistol is to go to the manufacturers websites and read up on their pistols.

You do not ever want to go around cocked but unlocked.

Personally, I cannot see having to deal with a safety lever, so I would not carry a pistol that depends on a lever to keep it safe. But others will of course feel differently, so if you just have to have a safety and carry c&l, then you would probably be best served with one of the numerous 1911's....
06-22-2009, 09:38 PM
VAMarine

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaCat;180757

So here's my questions: Do ALL single/double action guns have safeties that second as decockers? Is there a way to tell without trying every single gun out for myself?[/quote

Most double/single guns have a decocker, there HAS to be a safe way to lower the hammer on a live round.

Quote:

For even trigger pulls are the only options single action only and striker-fired guns (1911s and Glocks and such)?

No, there's DAO, DAK, and LDA (all double action only) the hammer returns to a safe position after every shot and the pulling of the trigger cocks and releases the hammer every time.

I was excited because the Bersa had all the features I was looking for at a great price, EXCEPT for the ability to be carried in condition 1. Aww shucks. I suppose I could walk around with the guns cocked but not locked (my M&P 40's only safety is the trigger itself, so it'd kinda be the same, I guess).

I suppose I could walk around with the guns cocked but not locked NOT A GOOD IDEA, DON'T DO IT. That's not how guns are meant to be carried.

Quote:

and they said nothing about the safeties being decockers also.

So how did they explain the trigger mechanism? unless it's listed as single action only, cocked and locked is a no go. There are some guns that can be either DA/SA OR SA with a cocked and locked function, the only maker of these that I'm aware off is CZ.
06-22-2009, 09:50 PM
Steve M1911A1

There are many Double-Action-Only (DAO) pistols which present the user with the exact same trigger pull for every shot, but which do not have safety levers to put "on" and "off." These DAO triggers have relatively long pulls, and some have relatively heavy pulls as well.
Then there are the "safe action" pistols, like the Glock, for instance, in which the trigger pull is just a little longer than a Single-Action (SA) trigger, and also a little heavier. These are not DAO pistols. Generally, the "safe action" pistols' triggers can not be pulled a second time, to set off a misfire (not that that's important, really). Further, the Glock series can be had (or be modified inexpensively) with trigger pulls ranging from about three to about 10 pounds, at your choice.
The kind you tried, in which if you set the safety to "on" the hammer decocks and presents you with a Double-Action (DA) first-shot pull, but the second shot is SA, is called a "Traditional Double-Action" (TDA). I suggest avoiding this action, because it's more difficult to learn to use well.
Finally, there's the 1911-style Single-Action (SA) trigger, with separate safety lever which you have to remember to put "on" and "off."
In my belief system, relative beginners to concealed carry would be best served by either a DAO or a "safe action" pistol.
I am an experienced concealed-weapon carrier and user, and my personal daily carry piece is DAO. (I do switch to a SA pistol for very serious social purposes, though.)
06-23-2009, 11:12 AM
literaltrance

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaCat

So here's my questions:

I'm ready if you are.... :numbchuck:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaCat

Do ALL single/double action guns have safeties that second as decockers?

No. Some do, but it's kinda rare these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaCat

Is there a way to tell without trying every single gun out for myself?

Yes. Check the manufacturers' websites for specifications/features. If you're looking for a manual safety lever, look for "manual safety." As I said above, very seldom do weapons have levers which serve as both decocker and manual safety...usually they just have one or the other. It's easy to get lost in the lingo of "safety" features as many websites will imply the safety is manual when in fact it's something like a firing pin block safety, or a trigger safety (Glocks for example). Again, "MANUAL" safety is there key here. To the best of my knowledge, the H&K USP [Variant 1] HK 45/45c, FNP 45, SOME FNP 9/40/357, are the only popular firearms where a lever serves both as a manual safety and decocker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaCat

For even trigger pulls are the only options single action only and striker-fired guns (1911s and Glocks and such)?

The short answer is yes. The real answer is no. There are SOME weapon makes which offer LEM triggers and DAO triggers while still maintaining hammer-and-pin mechanisms [as opposed to strikers]. As far as the differences between LEM and DAO, I cannot say 100%, but I know both exist to maintain trigger consistency on each and every pull.

I hope this helps.