Concealed comparo - springfield arms vs taurus

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05-07-2008, 01:04 PM
Metzzen1

Concealed comparo - springfield arms vs taurus

Hello. Brand new to the forum.

Im interested in buying a gun for personal protection/concealed carry.

I have been concidering the two following:

Springfield Arms XD Sub-Compact .40 S&W

Taurus Millennium Pro Compact .40 or .45 ACP. (suggestions?)

I want a short barrel (less than 3.5), both fit that.
Taurus lacks the palm pressure switch, the lower rail, some weight and the heafty price tag of the XD. But the XD can hold more rounds (with ext grip) and has the good palm pressure switch.

At first glance it appears that the XD is the clear winner BUT It doesnt come in a .45 acp which would be my preferred round, its 8-12 oz heavier, and $200 more.

Before making a purchase I will try to find someone to let me shoot their's and or rent one of each to shoot but I would like to kinda compare them on paper before actually trying to find a particular gun.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. If you know of a alternate in .45 acp, with 3.5" or less barrel, holds 9+ rounds feel free to suggest some. If i get .40 it will be the XD more than likely but the .45 im a little more open to suggestions.
05-07-2008, 01:39 PM
kenn

Howdy from North Dallas

Welcome to the Forum from Texas.
Have you looked at the Para LDA?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/923391495...ARRY_45ACP.htm

Kinda pricey, but if you were a 1911 style fan - it would be the way to go.
05-07-2008, 01:41 PM
Todd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metzzen1

Hello. Brand new to the forum.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metzzen1

I want a short barrel (less than 3.5), both fit that.
Taurus lacks the palm pressure switch, the lower rail, some weight and the heafty price tag of the XD. But the XD can hold more rounds (with ext grip) and has the good palm pressure switch.

I'm assuming that by palm pressure switch you're referring to the grip safety. As the current owner of a XD40 and with a XD9SC on the way (hopefully it will get here by next week), let me say the grip safety is nothing. Once you have a good grip on the gun, whether to shoot or draw, the safety is deactivated. I think it's more of a marketing gimic than a practical feature. The light rail again means nothing if you're going to carry concealed as there are very few holsters out there that will accommodate a gun with a light/laser mounted on it. Additionally, if you're going to be carrying concealed, you're not going to be using the extended grip on the XD as you will probably want a shorter grip that conceals better than a full size grip; so take that out of the "plus" category.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metzzen1

At first glance it appears that the XD is the clear winner BUT It doesnt come in a .45 acp which would be my preferred round, its 8-12 oz heavier, and $200 more.

Just out of curiosity, why the preference for the .45 over the .40 or even the 9mm? Is the preference based on your personal experience or what you have read on other forums and magazines? No disrespect to your choice, I'm just always curious when new members ask opinions about a gun and immediately want a .45, because unfortunately a lot of them have fallen into the stopping power trap pushed so hard by gun mags.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metzzen1

Before making a purchase I will try to find someone to let me shoot their's and or rent one of each to shoot ...

Definitely do that! :smt023
05-07-2008, 01:51 PM
Mike Barham

XD. Better trigger and more reliable.
05-07-2008, 02:19 PM
oak1971

Taurus PT145 and 140 both have accessory rails built in. They also have a second strike capability In case of a bad or improperly seated primer issue. No one else has that. Xd you have to rack the slide. The Taurus has a conventional safety trigger safety and a striker lockout safety with a key.
I have 500rds through mine which I bought 2 weeks ago. No problems at all.
05-07-2008, 02:22 PM
submoa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metzzen1

I want a short barrel (less than 3.5)...
palm pressure switch [grip safety.sic]...
the lower rail...
.45 acp which would be my preferred round...
holds 9+ rounds...

Para Ordnance Lite Hawg
http://www.para-usa.com/new/images/p...1045Ephoto.gif

.45 ACP
3" barrel
beavertail safety
rail
10+1 rounds
31.5 oz + mag
05-07-2008, 02:36 PM
oak1971

Nice little Para, how much?
05-07-2008, 02:46 PM
Mike Barham

XD subcompact has a rail, if for some reason someone wants to bulk up a small concealment pistol.

Second strike capability is overrated in my opinion. Misfires with premium factory centerfire ammo are exceedingly rare, and anyway another hit on a bad primer is no guarantee of ignition. Tap-Rack-Bang is a much better option. People have somehow managed to survive with 1911s for a century, after all.

A profusion of mechanical safeties does not make a pistol any safer than another. Only a safe shooter does.
05-07-2008, 03:40 PM
propellerhead

I'd go with the XD, even though a subcompact in .45 doesn't exist. If you get a short barreled 45, you'll have to get into the debates on slower velocities resulting in not so perfect expansion. The .40 doesn't have this issue.

The Taurus MilPro has a really long trigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

I think it's more of a marketing gimic than a practical feature.

It reduces the chances of an accidental discharge if you're handling the gun and you don't have a good grip on it. Or if your shirt or jacket gets caught in the trigger when holstering.
05-07-2008, 03:45 PM
Mike Barham

Quote:

Originally Posted by propellerhead

It reduces the chances of an accidental discharge if you're handling the gun and you don't have a good grip on it.

That would properly be called a negligent discharge, since one would have to place one's finger on the trigger to cause ignition. This would be a direct violation of Rule Three ("keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target").

Or, as I prefer it, keep your booger hook off the bang switch.

Quote:

Or if your shirt or jacket gets caught in the trigger when holstering.

Gun Carry 101 should teach you to keep all foreign objects clear of the trigger guard when holstering. This is no great trick.
05-07-2008, 03:49 PM
Joeywhat

Have you tried the XD45 compact? I'd give it a try and see how well it conceals for you. I'm a big guy so I could hide a barrett .50 BMG on my person...but the XD45c conceals well for me, plus it's a great gun to shoot.
05-07-2008, 04:12 PM
Todd

Quote:

Originally Posted by propellerhead

It reduces the chances of an accidental discharge if you're handling the gun and you don't have a good grip on it. Or if your shirt or jacket gets caught in the trigger when holstering.

Sorry PH, but I think the two reasons you just gave is nothing but an excuse, especially for novice shooters, to exercise sloppy gun handling instead of learning the proper way to handle a firearm. I will have 2 XD's by the end of next week, so it goes without saying that I think it's a good gun. But I stand by my statement that the grip safety is a marketing ploy and probably something SA came up with to separate it a bit from the Glock that does not have the grip safety.

Just because the gun has a grip safety, it's not an excuse to throw safe handling practices out the window. The best safeties out there are your brain and your finger. You shouldn't be handling a gun without a good grip on it and your finger should be no where near the trigger unless you've got a target in your sights. And when holstering the weapon, all clothing needs to be well clear of the holster. These are basis rules. You can never rely on, or replace safe handling skills with, any sort of safety or mechanical device. And given your past posts, I know you know that.

I think it would be irresponsible for us, as shooters with moderate to advanced skill levels and knowledge, to even suggest to new shooters that all the marketing and gizmos out there can replace the basics.
05-07-2008, 04:22 PM
Mike Barham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

probably something SA came up with to separate it a bit from the Glock that does not have the grip safety.

I also suspect that, since the XD is a single action pistol, some type of external safety was required to meet GCA '68 import criteria.
05-07-2008, 04:23 PM
Todd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeywhat

Have you tried the XD45 compact? I'd give it a try and see how well it conceals for you. I'm a big guy so I could hide a barrett .50 BMG on my person...but the XD45c conceals well for me, plus it's a great gun to shoot.

What are you, Paul Bunyan? :mrgreen:

I was thinking the same thing, but the OP said he wanted a 3.5" or shorter barrel and the XD has a 4".
05-07-2008, 04:33 PM
Todd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

I also suspect that, since the XD is a single action pistol, some type of external safety was required to meet GCA '68 import criteria.

Ah yes, that's what I was thinking as well. :anim_lol::anim_lol:

OK, serious question for you because I'm stumped now, Mr. Uber-Glock man; If your theory is correct, how does Glock get away with importing their guns with only the trigger safety and SA had to add the grip safety? Is the Glock categorized as DA? Does the trigger safety mechanics of the Glock differ enough for it to not need the the extra safety as far as the GCA '68 is concerned? :smt017
05-07-2008, 04:44 PM
Mike Barham

ATF classifies the Glock as DA-only, since the trigger completes the cocking action of the striker.
05-07-2008, 04:44 PM
propellerhead

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Sorry PH, but I think the two reasons you just gave is nothing but an excuse, especially for novice shooters, to exercise sloppy gun handling instead of learning the proper way to handle a firearm. I will have 2 XD's by the end of next week, so it goes without saying that I think it's a good gun. But I stand by my statement that the grip safety is a marketing ploy and probably something SA came up with to separate it a bit from the Glock that does not have the grip safety.

Just because the gun has a grip safety, it's not an excuse to throw safe handling practices out the window. The best safeties out there are your brain and your finger. You shouldn't be handling a gun without a good grip on it and your finger should be no where near the trigger unless you've got a target in your sights. And when holstering the weapon, all clothing needs to be well clear of the holster. These are basis rules. You can never rely on, or replace safe handling skills with, any sort of safety or mechanical device. And given your past posts, I know you know that.

I think it would be irresponsible for us, as shooters with moderate to advanced skill levels and knowledge, to even suggest to new shooters that all the marketing and gizmos out there can replace the basics.

Preach on brutha man!!! Can I get a hell yea?!

No one said anything about throwing out gun safety practices. The additional passive safety simply reduces risks in cases where other mechanical safeties and the human factor might fail.
05-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Todd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

ATF classifies the Glock as DA-only, since the trigger completes the cocking action of the striker.

Ahhhhh. :smt023
05-07-2008, 05:14 PM
Todd

Quote:

Originally Posted by propellerhead

Preach on brutha man!!! Can I get a hell yea?!

No one said anything about throwing out gun safety practices. The additional passive safety simply reduces risks in cases where other mechanical safeties and the human factor might fail.

HELL YEAH!

I know you didn't say throw out safe handling practices and I apologize if you think I was insinuating it. I just think it's poor form on the parts of the gun manufacturers to give the false illusion through marketing of "safety features" (Taurus' Security System immediately comes to mind as well as the XD Grip safety) that the mechanics of the gun make the gun safe and will compensate for lack of knowledge. I further think that we as more experienced shooters need to dispel this myth when new shooters come asking for advice.
05-07-2008, 05:18 PM
Metzzen1

woh

I like the .45 because I have more options as far as ammo. I shot a few of these calibers, .40, 44 mag, .45 ACP in different brands and between 5 or so different brands i liked the way the .45 felt the best. I felt like it was.....harder recoil but almost slower.... Maybe im crazy.

I have kinda discounted 9 mm because I had a glock 9mm before and didnt like it. Most 9mm's I have shot left me feeling like I would be underpowered when I needed it most. My mentality is bigger bullet makes bigger hole.

I have a buddy who sells guns and he is givin me a pretty decent discount on any springfield arms guns, or anything he carries for that matter. I think Im down to deciding between a XD .45 (4") or the sub compact in .40.

I think what will make my decision is how they shoot. Ill see when I can get out to the range.
05-07-2008, 06:56 PM
submoa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

Or, as I prefer it, keep your booger hook off the bang switch.

Now I understand how 'crunchenticker' triggers got their name - dried boogers. :mrgreen:
05-07-2008, 08:48 PM
oak1971

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Barham

XD subcompact has a rail, if for some reason someone wants to bulk up a small concealment pistol.

Second strike capability is overrated in my opinion. Misfires with premium factory centerfire ammo are exceedingly rare, and anyway another hit on a bad primer is no guarantee of ignition. Tap-Rack-Bang is a much better option. People have somehow managed to survive with 1911s for a century, after all.

A profusion of mechanical safeties does not make a pistol any safer than another. Only a safe shooter does.

It does help when you reload like I do. Sometimes you get a primer that does not seat all the way. I had two such examlples the other day and only had to pull the trigger again to solve the problem. Is it essential? No. do I like it? Sure.
05-07-2008, 10:50 PM
propellerhead

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

HELL YEAH!

I know you didn't say throw out safe handling practices and I apologize if you think I was insinuating it. I just think it's poor form on the parts of the gun manufacturers to give the false illusion through marketing of "safety features" (Taurus' Security System immediately comes to mind as well as the XD Grip safety) that the mechanics of the gun make the gun safe and will compensate for lack of knowledge. I further think that we as more experienced shooters need to dispel this myth when new shooters come asking for advice.

I have never seen a Springfield Armory add that says having a grip safety means you can be less careful. I don't think it was ever intended to replace or compensate for gun handling knowledge. The XD manual covers gun safety multiple times and never mentions that its mechanical safety features can take the place of gun safety. The grip safety adds a level of safety on top of all the knowledge and training the human gets. I work in the military airplane building industry and we design in multiple levels of safety features to keep the airplane in the sky. Do we really need to? No. We can just sit back and say the pilot should know better. Yet we spend countless hours with our design to stack safety feature on top of safety feature to cover those one in a million cases where something fails. We design safety features for things that you would say it would never happen. Why? Because somewhere sometime all the wrong things are gonna happen and someone will die. Cars have anti-lock brakes because sometimes you can't always see the patch of ice on the road. Microwave ovens won't start unless the door is closed. My table saw won't start unless both my hands are on the handles. That's how I view the XD's grip safety. You are right in saying it is not a replacement for proper gun handling, but it adds yet another level of protection in case the other levels of safety fail. It's a passive safety feature that doesn't require the operator to do anything additional. That is not marketing hype. That's safety engineering.

New shooters get the same gun safety rules that you and I got regardless if a gun has a grip safety or not. Gun ranges enforce the same safety rules no matter what type of gun you have. I'm not sure what myth you are talking about.

Now, the Taurus lock thing... well, I agree with you on that. Pure marketing and political hype. :anim_lol:
05-15-2008, 02:14 PM
skyfire

Quote:

Originally Posted by submoa

Para Ordnance Lite Hawg
http://www.para-usa.com/new/images/p...1045Ephoto.gif

.45 ACP
3" barrel
beavertail safety
rail
10+1 rounds
31.5 oz + mag

that's a light gun for .45 lol, how bad does it kick is my question, it would seem to me that the 2nd shot would require some heavy reaiming after the heavy recoil of a .45 in a subcompact sized gun
05-15-2008, 02:30 PM
Mike Barham

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyfire

that's a light gun for .45 lol, how bad does it kick is my question, it would seem to me that the 2nd shot would require some heavy reaiming after the heavy recoil of a .45 in a subcompact sized gun

It really depends on how experienced a shooter you are, and the correctness (or incorrectness) of your technique. Because the slide moves so quickly, I can actually make faster hits with a 3" 1911 than a 6". .45ACP doesn't really kick hard, and its recoil is not terribly difficult to manage even in a light pistol.