The Judge

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Originally Posted by j4l

Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...:rolleyes:

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Glad I don't own any of those but a Glock, Kimber and a Kahr, all of which are about 4 years older than any of those threads. Glocks as of late have been having issues Gen3 and 4, mine is a Gen2, runs like a top. My kimber I've had tuned and parts replaced and it runs like a top. My Kahr sits in the safe because no one will buy it at what I would consider an acceptable loss to me.

A smarter person than I graciously pointed out to me that I was kinda of being a jerk IN the Taurus sub-forum. I'm glad he did. So, with that being said, I want to apologize for crapping all over this thread. That doesn't change my opinion on Taurus, nor will it stop me from trying to influence people to buy a better quality weapon for self defense purposes, but I'll bite my tongue when it comes to "lumping things together" in respect to all items of one brand.

Stay safe... and Oh, I'm done with this thread.

I certainly am glad that my M1911s and my AMT .45 Backup didn't make that long malfunctions list! I'd hate to think that I might be carrying a...Gasp!..."Taurus Equivalent." :anim_lol:

I notice that nobody seems to have internalized the information I presented in my previous post.
Oh, well...
May the guys with the Judges and Bond Arms derringers never have to put their weapons' inadequacies to the test. :smt083

Hmm. Good of you not to lump "everything" then. My point was- there's problems and malfunctions in all makes of all products. Be it guns, cars, etc. Problems arent exclusive to a particular brand or make.
Some are better at customer service and quality control than others, that's a given..
But, if one looks at things, 9 out 10 "problems" turn out to be Operator Headspace anyway- clowns with screwdrivers trying to be desk-top "gunsmiths" , mis-handling, wrong ammo/loads, improper maintenence, etc.
But heck. I've had malfunctions- everything from simple jams, to catastrophic failures with Barettas, Sigs, Brownings, Colts (rifles) ,more than I recall. Doesnt mean I've lumped all types/makes into the failure-avoid like the plaque category.

As far as particular calibers go- ya there are definitely some that just plain dont work. That's based on documented history, personal witness, personal experience, and having seen hundreds of clowns I used to X-ray in an ER. I've seen what works, and what doesnt work, in a lot of different ways.
I know pro-9mm types get their panties in a wad anytime anyone points out they've chosen mothballs for defensive rounds, but..sometimes reality sucks like that. Im not going to, in good conscience, suggest such loads for folks to defend themselves with, just to be "nice".

On shotgun loads, I kept reading where folks suggest this or that load for home defense- because it "penetrates less" etc. Someday some folks are going to find out a really, really lousy lesson heading such advice. We're talking about firearms, folks. Not sneakers or stereos. What we discuss in places like this can and will get people killed. Under-estimating certain loads-esp. in shotguns is a HUGE mistake. But again, dont take my word for it. Gather some materials, go out back in the yard, and try it for yourself, rather than reading my rants, or interweb mythology.

As for the Judge itself-since this got so side-tracked, MY intent for the weapon is primarily for use against SNAKES around my home. A defensive role against humans, if needed, would be secondary at most. But that would not make me hesitate to make use of what;s at hand.

And what's at hand with the Judge and Federal handgun 000 buck is not
bad.Some critisize just to critisize.I guess they have nothing better to do.
Know it alls.We all have them in our lives somewhere.

[QUOTE=j4l;228782]EDIT: What we discuss in places like this can and will get people killed. Under-estimating certain loads-esp. in shotguns is a HUGE mistake. QUOTE]

I would love to stop reading your rants but I find them somehow stimulating :mrgreen:. Please unwad my panties (gently please) and don't get someone killed by telling them an adversary with a 9mm is no real threat because you saw it on an X-Ray somewhere. You may just get them killed by your own admission. Your failure to respond to my post on another thread about the 9mms devastating effect in the Gifford shootings puts your credibility in question.
Eli

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Originally Posted by bayhawk2

...Some critisize just to critisize...

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...And some defend their purchase just to defend their own impulsive choice.

(Note that I'm not criticizing your spelling.) :smt083

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Originally Posted by j4l

Ah, forgive me for failing to realize that Only Taurus' have issues...:rolleyes:

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Having issues is not what gives Taurus a bad reputation, but the hassle of dealing with their incompetent, unresponsive customer service.

I should have known never to doubt your word about
the Taurus Judge.I know you know much more than I do about it,after all,I've only put about a
"thousand rounds through mine".Oh sure you never held one or shot one,but the amount you have
read on it?No doubt you are the man.
P.S. End of conversation.I won't agrgue with a "know it all."

First off, I am not a .410 bore basher. I own 3 of them myself. However, they are all shotguns not pistols. Out here in "semi-rural " country ( 3-15 acre lots, but houses within 200 yards of each other) the .410 is the "Yard gun" or "Critter gun" of choice for pests. It fills a definite niche, but as a shotgun.

I have a Mossberg 500E (youth model) for the Grandkids when they hunt with Grandpa, an NEF Pardner with wood youth stock for "first shotgun" training for same and a composite stocked, weatherproofed H&R Pardner with a shell sleeve on stock that is the garage wall mounted "Duty Critter Gun." The first two sit with pride in the gunsafe alongside their numerous 12 gauge and 20 gauge "cousins."

But I fail to see practicality of .410 in such a short barrel. To me it is a shotgun caliber/bore not a pistol cartridge.

BTW Mike, as I sit here typing, my 642 is nestled inside a GALCO Pro #158 in my front pocket.

[QUOTE=EliWolfe;228794]

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Originally Posted by j4l

EDIT: What we discuss in places like this can and will get people killed. Under-estimating certain loads-esp. in shotguns is a HUGE mistake. QUOTE]

I would love to stop reading your rants but I find them somehow stimulating :mrgreen:. Please unwad my panties (gently please) and don't get someone killed by telling them an adversary with a 9mm is no real threat because you saw it on an X-Ray somewhere. You may just get them killed by your own admission. Your failure to respond to my post on another thread about the 9mms devastating effect in the Gifford shootings puts your credibility in question.
Eli

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Well,genius, havent read your comment in the other post...sooooooooooooo......
As for x-rays, how does an average of 4-6 GSV's per night over the course of 5 yrs- about 80% of whom had 9mm rounds that failed to stop the persons, failed to expand , and as often as not failed to penetrate even minor bones when hit, disqualify the fact that the round flat out fails. Repeatedly.
Punching a few holes in a piece of paper at the range once so often does'nt un-do any actual street facts, much as that may offend those who've made up their minds that they have a snow-ball's chance in hell of relying on them in an actual shooting.. :numbchuck:

Consider also: The majority of rounds used in the GSV's we had in -since most of the GSV's were gang-bangers , and wannabe gang-bangers, were 9mm.
After that were .25 acp hits. Most didnt expand or were hardball anyway-but by far the round most often resulting in death. Next were .40- these most often being Police use. (another failure of a round most of the time) w/ many GSV's shot multiple times by multiple officers,with no result other than a lot of holes. Once in a blue moon, someone would come in shot by a .380 or a .38 spl-=these were usually civillian CCW folks shooting those. 50/50 results with those.
The ONLY rounds we saw result in death of the GSV more than 90% of the time were .45 acp, .25 acp, 12 gauge, and 7.62x39mm. End of story.

But from my own perspective of a 9mm use- try putting 14 rounds (center-mass torso, all the way up to his forehead) into some Somali turd who MIGHT have weighed in at 70 lbs soaking wet, and with all his weapons and ammo, and have the guy still coming at you until your M9 is empty and you have to beat him to death with it. I assure you, your faith in 9mm will take a nose-dive. But hey, what the hell would I know about any of it ,anyway...

Hey, j4l, please tell me about the .25 ACP deaths you've seen in your E/R.
• Was it, in any of these cases, possible to infer the distance between shooter and victim at the time the shot(s) were fired?
• In the most usual (maybe the mode, but not the median or average) case, how many hits did the victim receive?
• Could you infer or define which particular hit caused the (modal) death, or was the death a result of receiving multiple hits?
• If the (modal) death was the result of a single hit, where was that hit? Head (eye, nose, ear, brain)? Heart? Neck? Thigh? Thorax? Pelvis?
• Were there any remarkable, or unusual, factors involved in the (modal) death?
• Was there evidence of drugs in the victim's system, in the modal or in the general case?
• Is there any important factor I forgot to ask about?

[QUOTE=j4l;228876]

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Originally Posted by EliWolfe

EDIT:
Well,genius, havent read your comment in the other post...sooooooooooooo......

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A genius? Wow, thanks. My comment on the other post was relative to the recent fatal shootings surrounding Congresswoman Gifford. Just looking for your streetwise wiggle on that incident.
Eli :mrgreen:

[QUOTE=j4l;228876][QUOTE=EliWolfe;228794]

Here you go. I'm all ears.
You have stated that the 9mm FAILS Utterly as a handgun cartridge. You site "street" information and unknown physicians as proof. Well sir, in the recent shooting involving Congresswoman Gifford, a magazine full of 9mm fired spray and pray by a deranged drug addict totally destroys your pet "theory". That the Congresswoman survived is a miracle of sorts, but had she been a BG, her wound was a one shot stop. I am also willing to bet that the shooter used ball ammo, a 9mm+P hollowpoint might well have been fatal.

So as for your "streetsmarts" best rethink it. In the meantime, here is a list of folks you can't call to your defense as unfortunately the are now deseased, killed by the TOTALLY ineffective 9mm. You might consider an apology to these innocents, as I apologize for using them to illustrate a point. Please don't try to disect this shooting into some convoluted "proof" that the 9 won't kill folks. The verdict is allready in. Game over.
Eli

May they rest in peace.

Six people were killed in the attack;[101] all but Christina-Taylor Green died at the scene of the shooting.[102] The deceased are (in alphabetical order by surname):

1.Christina-Taylor Green, 9, of Tucson.[103] Green was accompanied to the meeting by neighbor Susan Hileman.[35][104] Born on September 11, 2001, she had appeared in the book Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11 (page 41).[105][106][107] She was the granddaughter of former Major League Baseball player and manager Dallas Green.[106][108]
2.Dorothy "Dot" Morris, 76, a retired secretary from Oro Valley; wife of George, who was wounded.[101][109]
3.John Roll, 63, chief judge of the U.S. District Court for Arizona, named to the federal bench by President George H. W. Bush in 1991.[35][110][111][112]
4.Phyllis Schneck, 79, homemaker from Tucson.[101][113]
5.Dorwan Stoddard, 76, retired construction worker, from a gunshot wound to the head; his wife Mavy was wounded.[101][114]
6.Gabriel "Gabe" Zimmerman, 30, community outreach director for Giffords,[6][35] and a member of Giffords' staff since 2006.[115]
Thirteen people were wounded in the attack; a fourteenth person was injured at the scene, but was determined not to have been shot. Gabrielle Giffords and two other members of her staff were among the surviving gunshot victims.[3]

Didnt say it never happens, merely that it does so rarely enough to be foolish to rely on it to do so for you. For any one case you can cite of 9mm performing fatally, im quiet sure a 10000 more folks can counter with the opposite.
Again, there's a lot of valid reasons why the Feds, all but perhaps 3 or 4 law-enforcement agencies in the U.S., and the military have dropped the 9mm cold.
In the LEO end of things, most opted for the .40, and If you ask most of em- they'll tell you flat-out they want the .45, because the .40 is barely an improvement over the 9 most of the time. (and no, i dont mean run of the mill officers, i mean officers that have had to use the round in action. )

The military has already laid out the specs /minimal requirements for the next service pistol- even though the program was killed for politics/financial reasons. But the spec remains- .45 acp. nothing less. Why, would they return to that old round after 20+ yrs of 9mm NATO?
Ask em.

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Originally Posted by j4l

Didnt say it never happens, merely that it does so rarely enough to be foolish to rely on it to do so for you. For any one case you can cite of 9mm performing fatally, im quiet sure a 10000 more folks can counter with the opposite.

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OK>>>I surrender...:anim_lol: This is a great site and I have been drifting endlessly for which I apologize to our hosts.
Eli :oops:

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Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1

Hey, j4l, please tell me about the .25 ACP deaths you've seen in your E/R.
• Was it, in any of these cases, possible to infer the distance between shooter and victim at the time the shot(s) were fired?
• In the most usual (maybe the mode, but not the median or average) case, how many hits did the victim receive?
• Could you infer or define which particular hit caused the (modal) death, or was the death a result of receiving multiple hits?
• If the (modal) death was the result of a single hit, where was that hit? Head (eye, nose, ear, brain)? Heart? Neck? Thigh? Thorax? Pelvis?
• Were there any remarkable, or unusual, factors involved in the (modal) death?
• Was there evidence of drugs in the victim's system, in the modal or in the general case?
• Is there any important factor I forgot to ask about?

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Insensés Suffer plaisir!
Eli :mrgreen:

...Mais, il n'offrait pas une réponse complet, ou aussi du pointe a pointe. :smt076

there seems to be a lot of discussion about the ballistics of this revolver. as with any caliber and or weapon it seems no one can ever completely agree. a lot of the discussions have gone off the original points.
i bought a taurus judge in the polymer model. had to return it to the dealer.. right out of the box the cylinder and timing would not lock up when closing the cylinder..dealer was very agreeable and replaced said gun but for a few dollars more i opted for the public defender ultralite.
kept it loaded with 000 for a month before actually firing it..after 5 rounds and ejecting spent shells the cylinder would not lock up and the hammer spring was broken .. am going back to dealer this weekend..will see what he will do about this issue because i do not want another taurus..my take on this is that taurus has tried to meet the demand for these revolvers and quality control is lacking..
i think that several of you are correct about the sales hype .
the smaller framed judges have a lot of recoil ,,unless you shoot a lot and are used to it,,i think in an extreme situation follow up shots would be difficult for the average person..just saying..
also most forums/sights including taurus point out that the .410 slug is not very accurate in this revolver,,hence the .45 colt
also most of the judges are too big for cc and the smaller frames have considerable recoil.. smaller grips..also i have a s/w 500 and am used to recoil..
my only reason to posting on this thread is to point out my personal experience with this revolver..you can argue about the rest ..

To do real damage to an adversary you need to first, get sufficient penetration, and second have a fairly large wound cavity.

The .410 certainly makes a wide wound cavity. I think the penetration is quite limited, except at very close range.

I will Google ".410 shot in ballistic gelatin" to see what results are out there.

Also, S & W makes a similar weapon (but of much higher quality) called "The Governor".

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Originally Posted by Packard

...The .410 certainly makes a wide wound cavity...

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Under what conditions, exactly?
With what load?
And from where did you get the information?


As I understand it, when shot from a pistol:
The .410 slug load neither penetrates well nor makes a "wide wound cavity."
The .410 buckshot load does not penetrate well, but rather spreads its shot quite widely and ineffectually.
The .410 birdshot load neither penetrates nor makes any sort of "wound cavity" at all.

:watching:

Buy the Taurus, and with the money you save take a class in pistol whipping. When the gun locks up trade it in for a 16 oz hammer. That way the decision to buy the Taurus won't be a total loss. :smt021

That was good Steve m1911A1 :smt1099

I'm sure there's a place for guns like the Judge, but all I can see is "collateral damage" from a shotshell. I would be nice for shooting .45LC though.

They are sloppy crackle cakes made of some kind of peanut brittle alloy. Remove the side plate to reveal the marshmallow filling. Mine had a crunchy chocolate filling inside. I will never buy another one unless they throw in a glass of milk.