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  1. #1
    SawedOff is offline Junior Member
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    Question about carry permits from a newcomer

    Hi guys,
    I'm pretty new to guns. I own a Winchester 6-gauge sawed off shotgun and I just recently purchased a Remington P27 handgun.
    I was recently out to dinner with my wife Linda when an undercover pig stopped me and asked to see my carry permit for my Remington.
    At first I told him I was within my rights to not show him anything, because he didn't have probable cause.
    Then I figured I wouldn't hassle him so I showed him my permit. He claimed it wasn't valid because it was "just an application for a permit".
    He is correct, but it shows that I have intent to get a permit, so I'm within my rights to carry until I get the permit.
    Do I have a beef with the state here or am I barking up the wrong sycamore?
    P.S. I live in PA

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    Holly's Avatar
    Holly is offline Member
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  4. #3
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    Hi guys,
    I'm pretty new to guns. I own a Winchester 6-gauge sawed off shotgun and I just recently purchased a Remington P27 handgun.
    I was recently out to dinner with my wife Linda when an undercover pig stopped me and asked to see my carry permit for my Remington.
    At first I told him I was within my rights to not show him anything, because he didn't have probable cause.
    Then I figured I wouldn't hassle him so I showed him my permit. He claimed it wasn't valid because it was "just an application for a permit".
    He is correct, but it shows that I have intent to get a permit, so I'm within my rights to carry until I get the permit.
    Do I have a beef with the state here or am I barking up the wrong sycamore?
    P.S. I live in PA

    While I certainly don't like your use of "pig" (just a hint, but I would not use that word in that particular context here ever again) I will try to answer your questions but need some things clarified:

    Were you carrying openly or concealed?

    6 gauge? Did you mean 16 gauge?

    What the hell is a Remington P27?

    You do not in fact have a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF), but have applied for one and that application has yet to be approved.


    Regarding the law enforcement officer asking for your permit.

    PA Code states:

    18 Pa.C.S. 6122: Proof of license and exception


    (a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

  5. #4
    Holly's Avatar
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    Thank you, VAMarine, for once again stating tactfully what my brain was screaming obscenely.

  6. #5
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
    TOF is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    Hi guys,
    I'm pretty new to guns. I own a Winchester 6-gauge sawed off shotgun and I just recently purchased a Remington P27 handgun.
    I was recently out to dinner with my wife Linda when an undercover pig stopped me and asked to see my carry permit for my Remington.
    At first I told him I was within my rights to not show him anything, because he didn't have probable cause.
    Then I figured I wouldn't hassle him so I showed him my permit. He claimed it wasn't valid because it was "just an application for a permit".
    He is correct, but it shows that I have intent to get a permit, so I'm within my rights to carry until I get the permit.
    Do I have a beef with the state here or am I barking up the wrong sycamore?
    P.S. I live in PA
    Are you old enough to obtain a permit?

    I expect you believe applying for a drivers license or job guarantees you get them. One of lifes bitter lessons is that you are wrong.

  7. #6
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Thank you, VAMarine, for once again stating tactfully what my brain was screaming obscenely.
    That's why I make the big $$$ :P

  8. #7
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    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    ...I own a Winchester 6-gauge sawed off shotgun...[emphasis added]
    Did anybody besides me notice this?
    "Sawed off shotgun"?

    Isn't there some sort of forum rule that prohibits discussion of illegal activity and equipment?

    This guy has just copped to two felonies:
    Carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, and
    Owning a possibly-illegally-modified weapon.

    Further, judging from what he's written, this guy is either a nut case or an gent provocateur.

    I strongly suggest caution in dealing with him.



    We'll be away until July 7th, visiting our brand-new granddaughter.
    See you then.

  9. #8
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Yeah Steve I caught that. Possibly illegally modified does not equal illegally modified. SBS & AOWs are legal to own in PA and its quite possible that's what he has or he's just using the wrong terminology.

    We'll sort it/him out one way or the other.

    Regading carry without a permit, PA is an open carry state that does not require a permit for such activity with few exceptions hence my asking if he were carrying openly or concealed. As the Officer had reason to ask for the permit so he was either carrying openly or poorly concealed.

  10. #9
    SawedOff is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    Are you old enough to obtain a permit?

    I expect you believe applying for a drivers license or job guarantees you get them. One of lifes bitter lessons is that you are wrong.
    I think you need a reality check grandpa. I have a driver's license and I have two jobs. I'm 26 years old and I have the application for a carry permit, I just haven't filled it out yet. As long as I'm carrying the application along with my P27, I'm within my 3rd amendment rights.
    That's what makes this country America.

    THESES COLORS DON'T RUN!

  11. #10
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    I think you need a reality check grandpa. I have a driver's license and I have two jobs. I'm 26 years old and I have the application for a carry permit, I just haven't filled it out yet. As long as I'm carrying the application along with my P27, I'm within my 3rd amendment rights.
    That's what makes this country America.

    THESES COLORS DON'T RUN!
    Not if you were carrying concealed or carrying a firearm that requires a LTCF.

    Having a blank application doesn't do squat.

    And I'm assuming you meant 2nd Amendment....

  12. #11
    SawedOff is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    While I certainly don't like your use of "pig" (just a hint, but I would not use that word in that particular context here ever again) I will try to answer your questions but need some things clarified:

    Were you carrying openly or concealed?

    6 gauge? Did you mean 16 gauge?

    What the hell is a Remington P27?

    You do not in fact have a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF), but have applied for one and that application has yet to be approved.


    Regarding the law enforcement officer asking for your permit.

    PA Code states:

    18 Pa.C.S. 6122: Proof of license and exception


    (a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
    VAMarine,
    Thanks for finding all the rules, and I'm sorry about calling pigs cops.
    The sawed off isnt a 16-gauge, its a sixer.
    Being that you have to be online to reply in this forum I'm assuming you've already googled a Remington P27
    I still feel that having the application on my person is a sign that I intend/will get a license to carry.
    Its the same thing if a cop stops you and you don't have your driver's license on you. They give you a chance to get your license later.
    I don't know all the rules and amendments but its in the law book.

  13. #12
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    VAMarine,
    Thanks for finding all the rules, and I'm sorry about calling pigs cops.
    The sawed off isnt a 16-gauge, its a sixer.
    Being that you have to be online to reply in this forum I'm assuming you've already googled a Remington P27
    I still feel that having the application on my person is a sign that I intend/will get a license to carry.
    Its the same thing if a cop stops you and you don't have your driver's license on you. They give you a chance to get your license later.
    I don't know all the rules and amendments but its in the law book
    .
    You're welcome from the help on the PA code, I lived in PA for a couple of years and read the laws more times than I can count. I suggest you start doing the same.

    As for "having an application" making it ok to carry etc.

    No, it most certainly is not.

    (a) Offense defined.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    The law calls for a license. Not an application or happy thoughts of obtaining one.

    Again, if you were open carrying, a permit is not required, except in some circumstances such as when in a vehicle etc.

    Now, regarding your 6 gauge....sure what ever. Just be advised that a stocked shotgun with a barrel length under 18" of length is a short barreled shotgun and is illegal without going through the specific processes. Similarly, a short-barreled shotgun minus the stock is /may be considered an AOW (Any other weapon) and is likewise heavily regulated.



    Short Barreled Shotgun



    AOW - Any Other Weapon


    "Bear Claw" - AOW


    As possession of an unregistered NFA item is illegal, and that this forum has rules regarding promotion of illegal activity, such as carrying a handgun concealed in PA without a LICENSE. I'm going to guess that what you meant to say is that you have a shotgun with 18" barrel of "X" gauge and that you were openly carrying this mystical Remington R27 (which Google says is a pair of ear plugs) which is why the officer knew you had a gun.

  14. #13
    skullfr's Avatar
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    Well,I have found through normal traffic or whatever types of stops from LEO's usually go way much better if you comply and be pleasant.I have been let off numerous tickets in my early years just by being respectfull.Just take alook at just the youtube videos of people exercising thier rights-it usually goes poorly.Look at it this way,These officers see people at thier worst and when confronted with a belligerent person the defenses go up.Are all these officers correct,no they are human just like everyone else and are capable of mistakes like us all.I am not telling you what to do but it could land you in a big world of trouble.All I am saying is treat everyone like you want to be treated.

  15. #14
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    This guy is just trolling...nobody is that arrogantly ignorant.

  16. #15
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    This guy is just trolling...nobody is that arrogantly ignorant.
    Maybe, maybe not. Like I said above, either way we'll get him straightened out.

  17. #16
    NMpops is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    I think you need a reality check grandpa. I have a driver's license and I have two jobs. I'm 26 years old and I have the application for a carry permit, I just haven't filled it out yet. As long as I'm carrying the application along with my P27, I'm within my 3rd amendment rights.
    That's what makes this country America.

    THESES COLORS DON'T RUN!
    Obviously you weren't concealed very well or the cop would not have asked to see your permit. And as several have stated an application means NOTHING.

  18. #17
    kg333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawedOff View Post
    I think you need a reality check grandpa. I have a driver's license and I have two jobs. I'm 26 years old and I have the application for a carry permit, I just haven't filled it out yet. As long as I'm carrying the application along with my P27, I'm within my 3rd amendment rights.
    That's what makes this country America.

    THESES COLORS DON'T RUN!
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Please pass the popcorn?

    KG

  19. #18
    FirstTenor is offline Junior Member
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    If the story this -- gentleman -- has related here is true, why wasn't he arrested when stopped? The facts are that the vast majority of us gun owners are firm believers in "the rule of law." I strongly recommend this -- gentleman -- begin (a) becoming better acquainted with it and (b) respecting it more.

    kg333, I'm getting ready to pop some corn, shall I send some over?

  20. #19
    Haas is offline Member
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    I still feel that having the application on my person is a sign that I intend/will get a license to carry.
    Its the same thing if a cop stops you and you don't have your driver's license on you. They give you a chance to get your license later.
    What you feel isn't what matters. It's what the law says, that matters. If I get pulled over for going 70 in a 45 mph zone, no cop will go, "Oh, I"m sorry, I didn't know you felt that 70 was safe, carry on".

    Secondly, your example of the drivers license is not comparable. You're talking about a person who has a valid license, but just doesn't have it on his person. In your case, you don't have the license yet. The application does not validate you, the license does. If an application were all that was needed, everyone would just carry an application.

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