OC'ing vs CC'ing: The on-going battle

One can go onto any number of gun carry websites and can be almost assured of running across posters arguing the merits and follies of carrying openly or concealed. Generally, those who open carry are more open minded and accepting of concealed carriers than the other way around. And that is probably due to the fact that most who open carry also conceal carry when they deem it to be in their interests at a given time and place. So why is there such animosity shown towards OC'ers by CC'ers? Why do they name call and degrade those who, other that the fact that their sidearm is visible, are no different than those who choose to hide their piece? Why do we have this sort of division, this fracture in our ranks when we should know better and certainly should know that we are only feeding the anti's with fodder they can use against us.

We have all heard the arguments. Your gun will be taken from you. You will be the first to be targeted. You are just trying to get a rise out of the general public, or better yet, the local police. You want your 15 minutes of fame on youtube and this is your moment. And on and on. The one reason which tends to come across more ominous is that CC'ers believe that their privilege, read that as permission, to carry conceal may be at risk if too many people go around in public with openly displayed sidearms. They like to use California as an example but in that state, we know what passes for sanity when it comes to the Second Amendment. Nothing.

For several years I have professed that we need to stop this incessant arguing and in-fighting and fully support both modes of carry, regardless of whether or not we refuse to practice one or the other. We are all in this together and we had better see that sooner than later because the forces at work to remove our most fundamental right of freedom would like nothing better than to see us further tear ourselves into splinters over something so silly as arguing about how one goes about armed.

So for those of you who do fully support both modes of carry, I say thank you, God bless you, and I am within your ranks. To those who wish to continue to denigrate OC'ers as one step up from knuckle dragging slack jaws, please take a look at yourself in a mirror. You are the problem and are not on the side of freedom.

Thank you folks.... and please, we ARE all in this together.

SouthernBoy.

Generally speaking I have no issue with anyone who openly carries a firearm. I would however like to add one word to that. "Responsible". I think the reason people tend to question or look at OC'ers in a different light is the fact that places like youtube are flooded with videos of people trying to get a rise out of the general public or LE and that is their main exposure to it. They do not see the hundreds of thousands of gun owner who carry everyday with whatever method who go on about their day without problem.

There is a difference in responsible open carry for a self defense purpose and parading into a steak house declaring it is my right to OC, go ahead and call the police I have a video camera. I CC as OC is not legal in my state. I do not carry a firearm to garner public attention or make a statement. I carry a firearm to protect myself and my family or whomever else I choose to.

Whether we like it or not many OC'ers openly admit that they are carrying a firearm and video camera to expose and educate the general public and law enforcement to the right to openly carry a firearm great but do it in the right way. Show the public and LE that you are the normal everyday person who is responsible enough to carry a firearm for self defense not bring an AR to the salad bar because you can.

You are absolutely correct in that we are all in this together but all it takes is one idiot to make us all look bad. The general public and lawmakers will not look at it as "Oh it is one of those OC guys making a statement" all they will see is guy with a gun doing something weird and then start a campaign against all gun owners. Think before you speak, speak before you act as it is a reflection of us all.

I know nothing about this animosity of which you speak.
i know the debate but I have never seen any animosity. Or at least, no more that the usual that goes on over which bullet is best (Federal HST), which gun is best (1911), or which knife is best (benchmade)

I CCW. If you want to open carry, I think it's great. You'll either scare them off or make them come at you first. It's win / win for me.:mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by tacman605

SouthernBoy.

Generally speaking I have no issue with anyone who openly carries a firearm. I would however like to add one word to that. "Responsible". I think the reason people tend to question or look at OC'ers in a different light is the fact that places like youtube are flooded with videos of people trying to get a rise out of the general public or LE and that is their main exposure to it. They do not see the hundreds of thousands of gun owner who carry everyday with whatever method who go on about their day without problem.

There is a difference in responsible open carry for a self defense purpose and parading into a steak house declaring it is my right to OC, go ahead and call the police I have a video camera. I CC as OC is not legal in my state. I do not carry a firearm to garner public attention or make a statement. I carry a firearm to protect myself and my family or whomever else I choose to.

Whether we like it or not many OC'ers openly admit that they are carrying a firearm and video camera to expose and educate the general public and law enforcement to the right to openly carry a firearm great but do it in the right way. Show the public and LE that you are the normal everyday person who is responsible enough to carry a firearm for self defense not bring an AR to the salad bar because you can.

You are absolutely correct in that we are all in this together but all it takes is one idiot to make us all look bad. The general public and lawmakers will not look at it as "Oh it is one of those OC guys making a statement" all they will see is guy with a gun doing something weird and then start a campaign against all gun owners. Think before you speak, speak before you act as it is a reflection of us all.

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I don't OC for purposes of public education, though I have done my share of educating folks when they have asked. In the entire time I have open carried, I have only had one negative encounter and that was in a McDonald's in August 2009. The man claimed he was a retired LEO but judging from his accent, he was not a native Virginian... more likely someone from the northeast region of the country.

As for people who carry a camera in hopes of nabbing police, I am in favor of that when one lives somewhere where the police are in a habit of violating citizens civil rights. They need to be caught on camera and exposed when they do this. Otherwise, I tend to think of it as showboating.

With rights comes responsibility. This is true with any of our rights and to me, there is no difference between exercising my right of free assembly or speech then to carry my sidearm as I see fit. And carrying a firearm is no different than carrying a handkerchief (some may argue, but think of this metaphorically).

As I mentioned, I proudly and fully support both modes of carry and see no real difference between either mode. I believe this to be the carrier's decision to take and welcome their decision regardless of which it might be. There are times when I conceal my sidearm and those are generally when I deem a specific situation to be such that concealing is in my better interests. My carry gear doesn't shout "GUN". No thigh holster (I find those confining), nothing garish or what might be construed as strange or weird. Just a simple holster with a rather nondescript handgun within. And my dress is almost always casual and "normal". Many times, folks don't even realize there is a firearm at my side. I don't carry for show or to get a rise out of anyone. Like you, I carry for the same reason, I wear a seat belt. I wish to stay alive and healthy.

Anyway, you submitted a fine response and I thank you for it.

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Originally Posted by rolandrock

I know nothing about this animosity of which you speak.
i know the debate but I have never seen any animosity. Or at least, no more that the usual that goes on over which bullet is best (Federal HST), which gun is best (1911), or which knife is best (benchmade)

I CCW. If you want to open carry, I think it's great. You'll either scare them off or make them come at you first. It's win / win for me.:mrgreen:

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You need to visit Virginia. This doesn't happen here. Perhaps in some other states, but not here. I'm not saying it's never happened but not en masse. It's so rare that when it happens, it tends to get reported on another site.


"..or make them come at you first."
Cites, please. I know of only one. How many can you cite of this taking place?

As you did with your OP. Thanks

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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy

You need to visit Virginia. This doesn't happen here. Perhaps in some other states, but not here. I'm not saying it's never happened but not en masse. It's so rare that when it happens, it tends to get reported on another site.


"..or make them come at you first."
Cites, please. I know of only one. How many can you cite of this taking place?

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Is 3 ok?

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Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun


http://ads.mlive.com/RealMedia/ads/a...n&4=&undefined

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An unarmed man attempted to rob an Eastern Michigan University student of his handgun Thursday morning while he walked on Pearl Street near the campus in Ypsilanti, university officials said.


According to an email alert sent out by EMU, the student — an open-carry advocate — was walking at about 9:15 a.m. in the 300 block of Pearl Street when he was approached by an unknown man. The man grabbed the student’s holstered handgun and attempted to wrestle it away from the student, according to the alert.
Another person walking by the area came to the student’s aid and was able to secure the handgun, EMU said in the statement.

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Apparently the suspect was not deterred, despite being unarmed.

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Another OC argument, having your gun taken away and used against you. I think this is the first time I've heard this happen to a "civilian"

Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories | Richmond Times-Dispatch

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Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

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Robber takes gun from man wearing holster

June 9, 2010

Milwaukee police are investigating a robbery in which a man took a handgun from another man who was openly carrying the gun in a holster on his hip, a department spokeswoman said Wednesday.


The robbery occurred Friday on a sidewalk in the 7000 block of N. Teutonia Ave., police spokeswoman Anne E. Schwartz said.

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I remember when I couldn't cite any sources other than hearsay, not the case any more. I'm betting that as open carry becomes more popular, we will see more cases of this.

I CC, partially because up here, your just asking for trouble from LE.......but thinking about it, I would probably only OC when in the woods.....saying that, carry as you wish....I would never knock anyone for their choice of carry.

I open carry and never Conceal carry for many reasons. Main reason is that OC is more comfortable for me and i prefer to be the faster one to draw my weapon.

Those "cites" have been discussed many times. The guy who was shot and killed chased down the robber, never a good idea when he has your gun. Also Attempted grabs are not grabs, so that doesn't count. Also consider that if these people had even level one retention, this situations would never have happened.

You are WAY more likely to be killed by everything else in this world than by having your gun grabbed from you. The reason these people had their weapons "grabbed" is because they are not aware of their surroundings.

First rule in Carrying any weapon is being vigilant and observant of EVERYTHING around you. This doesn't mean being a sketchy rubbernecker, who constantly is doing 360's to see who is around them. It's just about being aware. Trust me i KNOW who is around me at all times, if someone is behind me, i know.

The Divide between OC and CC is caused by Human Nature. We LOVE to fight and love arguments, so if we can argue about it, we will...

SteveB,

You're statment is a little off, granted I'm only going by the news articles, so if you have something more solid I'd like to hear it.

1: the guy in VA had his gun taken after the chase, not before.

2: the guy in MI probably would have lost his gun if a passer-by had not come to his assistance, whether it counts or not is a matter of opinion, I think it counts as it shows an unarmed assailant not deterred by a visibly carried firearm and was besting the open carry advocate.

3: all the retention devices in the world will not matter if someone has you at gun point and is demanding your gun. I need to double check but I'm pretty sure the guy in WI was using a Serpa

4: yes, situational awareness matters, but you can't see everything 100% of the time. A determined attacker will find your blindspot.

The case in Virginia is the one to which I was referring.

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Originally Posted by VAMarine

SteveB,

You're statment is a little off, granted I'm only going by the news articles, so if you have something more solid I'd like to hear it.

1: the guy in VA had his gun taken after the chase, not before.

2: the guy in MI probably would have lost his gun if a passer-by had not come to his assistance, whether it counts or not is a matter of opinion, I think it counts as it shows an unarmed assailant not deterred by a visibly carried firearm and was besting the open carry advocate.

3: all the retention devices in the world will not matter if someone has you at gun point and is demanding your gun. I need to double check but I'm pretty sure the guy in WI was using a Serpa

4: yes, situational awareness matters, but you can't see everything 100% of the time. A determined attacker will find your blindspot.

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I guess the biggest point i'm trying to make here is that you can search all up and down all you want, but there is only one instance of a person getting their gun stolen from them and being killed. This is not anything that should even come up in conversation because the chance of you getting a gun stolen from you and killed with it may be something around 0.0000001%? Same applies to gun grabs, I have not been able to find anymore than about 2-3 instances that have actually been reported. Still not a significant variable to consider when comparing Concealed Carry to Open Carry.

So when it comes to OC, this is not enough evidence to sustain a statement saying "I'm betting that as open carry becomes more popular, we will see more cases of this."

[QUOTE=
I remember when I couldn't cite any sources other than hearsay, not the case any more. I'm betting that as open carry becomes more popular, we will see more cases of this.[/QUOTE]

I'm betting that more people will die from chocking on their own saliva while fear mongering about open carry.

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Originally Posted by Steveboos

So when it comes to OC, this is not enough evidence to sustain a statement saying "I'm betting that as open carry becomes more popular, we will see more cases of this."

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Then why all the fuss for OCers to use retention holsters?

I really don't care how anyone carries, but you can't tell me the open carry movement is activley dismissing take-a-ways while greatly endorsing active retention holsters.

Regarding thed data, again I remember not being able to cite any sources, now there's at least three, so it would seem that there ARE occuring more often, despite being infrequent.

If your operational risk managment process put a fraction of a second faster draw stroke above the negatives associated with open carry, that's cool but the open carry movement as a whole can't beat the "show me drum" any more like they used to and I think it would be foolish for an open carrier to play these instances down.

It can happen to you.

For others discretion is the better part of valor.

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Originally Posted by VAMarine

Then why all the fuss for OCers to use retention holsters?

I really don't care how anyone carries, but you can't tell me the open carry movement is activley dismissing take-a-ways while greatly endorsing active retention holsters.

Regarding thed data, again I remember not being able to cite any sources, now there's at least three, so it would seem that there ARE occuring more often, despite being infrequent.

If your operational risk managment process put a fraction of a second faster draw stroke above the negatives associated with open carry, that's cool but the open carry movement as a whole can't beat the "show me drum" any more like they used to and I think it would be foolish for an open carrier to play these instances down.

It can happen to you.

For others discretion is the better part of valor.

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Keep in mind that one who CC's has just as much chance of being a victim from a criminal attack as a non-carrier since the whole purpose of concealed carry is to be discreet. In other works, CC'ers look just like any other victim to a BG.

Once again, I am in full and complete support of people carrying as they deem appropriate, be it open or concealed. I make no distinction between these two modes and completely celebrate folks who choose one or the other or both.

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Originally Posted by VAMarine

Then why all the fuss for OCers to use retention holsters?

I really don't care how anyone carries, but you can't tell me the open carry movement is activley dismissing take-a-ways while greatly endorsing active retention holsters.

Regarding thed data, again I remember not being able to cite any sources, now there's at least three, so it would seem that there ARE occuring more often, despite being infrequent.

If your operational risk managment process put a fraction of a second faster draw stroke above the negatives associated with open carry, that's cool but the open carry movement as a whole can't beat the "show me drum" any more like they used to and I think it would be foolish for an open carrier to play these instances down.

It can happen to you.

For others discretion is the better part of valor.

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Retention Holsters are a false sense of security, but they do help when running or moving quickly if you don't own a high quality holster.

But considering people have been open carrying for over 300 years, i'd say 3 instances is nothing to even consider in the scheme of things...

Criminals like easy targets, a visibly unarmed person is easier than an visibly armed person...

Folks should be responsible no matter how they carry. However, in my location, most OCers are not. With ARs and shotguns in tote it really makes for an interesting day. The local PD gets called in, the OCers get kicked out by management and everyone feels like they got screwed. The uncle Mikes holster and high point pistol on the hip is not responsible.

The ONLY people who should ever be carrying a gun, should be very well trained with that weapon. I hate to see people make mistakes because they haven't practiced those scenarios or high stress scenarios before. If your favorite holster is an Uncle Mikes and you dominate any target, from any angle with that Hi Point, do so...

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Retention Holsters are a false sense of security, but they do help when running or moving quickly if you don't own a high quality holster.

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Actually retention holsters are one of the main reasons that the number of officers killed or assaulted with their own weapons is down. Anything you can do to that protects against a gun grab is a good thing but with increased retention comes increased training.

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But considering people have been open carrying for over 300 years, i'd say 3 instances is nothing to even consider in the scheme of things...

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Well considering there were no laws, rules, regulations or records kept for about 250 of that 300 years this should not be considered in the scheme of things either. I honestly don't know when the first CCW's were issued or when OC was first regulated but I can assure you a lot more folks were OC'ing in the 1800's and early 1900's than there are today.

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Criminals like easy targets, a visibly unarmed person is easier than an visibly armed person...

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If you look like a victim you will become a victim. Your demeanor, attitude and situational awareness is what will make you an undesirable target not the fact that you are armed or not.

Sorry double post

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Originally Posted by rolandrock

I know nothing about this animosity of which you speak.
i know the debate but I have never seen any animosity. Or at least, no more that the usual that goes on over which bullet is best (Federal HST), which gun is best (1911), or which knife is best (benchmade)

I CCW. If you want to open carry, I think it's great. You'll either scare them off or make them come at you first. It's win / win for me.:mrgreen:

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I agree

:smt1099

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Originally Posted by tacman605

Actually retention holsters are one of the main reasons that the number of officers killed or assaulted with their own weapons is down. Anything you can do to that protects against a gun grab is a good thing but with increased retention comes increased training.


Well considering there were no laws, rules, regulations or records kept for about 250 of that 300 years this should not be considered in the scheme of things either. I honestly don't know when the first CCW's were issued or when OC was first regulated but I can assure you a lot more folks were OC'ing in the 1800's and early 1900's than there are today.



If you look like a victim you will become a victim. Your demeanor, attitude and situational awareness is what will make you an undesirable target not the fact that you are armed or not.

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We are not speaking about LEO's, we are talking about citizens. Retention holsters are great if you like extra levels of security, but no reason to get Level 2 or Level 3 duty holsters when you OC. A simple Level one or just a snap enclosure is fine.

And also when the laws were not regulated, everyone had guns and could protect themselves. No one relied on the late response of Police to help them.

I Agree VERY much with your last statement. But not looking like a victim goes hand in hand with being aware of your surroundings.

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Originally Posted by Steveboos

We are not speaking about LEO's, we are talking about citizens. Retention holsters are great if you like extra levels of security, but no reason to get Level 2 or Level 3 duty holsters when you OC. A simple Level one or just a snap enclosure is fine.

And also when the laws were not regulated, everyone had guns and could protect themselves. No one relied on the late response of Police to help them.

I Agree VERY much with your last statement. But not looking like a victim goes hand in hand with being aware of your surroundings.

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Please explain the differences in need for retention from LEOs to civilian. As I see it, the BGs do not change. The level of security shouldnt either.

I don't have any facts or figures. I was thinking of myself. If I was a wrong doer bent on doing wrong and I walked into someplace where someone was OCing, I would either look elsewhere or go at the guy with the gun first.

To me it would seem idiotic to make any other choice but then, I really don't posess a finely tuned criminal mind.

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Originally Posted by rolandrock

I don't have any facts or figures. I was thinking of myself. If I was a wrong doer bent on doing wrong and I walked into someplace where someone was OCing, I would either look elsewhere or go at the guy with the gun first.

To me it would seem idiotic to make any other choice but then, I really don't posess a finely tuned criminal mind.

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You are right. You have at least thought about it. Not all BGs are scared of the gun on someones hip. That could make you the first target. If they are willing to take out security at a bank, and shoot at cops, a civilian with a gun really doesnt seem to intimidating.