Glad it went well for him. There is no excuse whatsoever for a police officer to not know the law.
law student = 1
cops = 0
scroll down in the article for the video
» Law Student Takes Cop To School After Being Illegally Stopped For Carrying Gun Alex Jones' Infowars
Glad it went well for him. There is no excuse whatsoever for a police officer to not know the law.
The one that screwed up is the dispatcher.
Man with a gun?
is she shooting it or pointing it at people?
is he threatening people.?
he's just walking along.
Sorry that's not a crime. Have a nice day
First off, I'm not a lawyer, or a police officer. Nor have I ever carried openly or concealed. Wisconsin has an open carry law and just recently passed a CC law, so I'm trying to educate myself. I've watched countless videos on youtube concerning open carry. There are two schools of thought on open carry when stopped by police. One is to take a confrontational approach as the young man in the video did and not co-cooperate with the police, as they did not have reasonable suspicion. The other is to cooperate, show some ID and be on your way. Many don't like the second option, but it to has its merits. One gun show on TV recommended this cooperative approach. Without reasonable suspicion, the police can still make a stop and our subsequent answers to their questions are considered "voluntary" as the officer is not "compelling" a response. Hence he is not violating any of our rights. Police can't "compel" a response without reasonable suspicion. Without reasonable suspicion you need not even tell them your name or show any ID. The rub comes in that, while not actually compelled, most people would "feel compelled" to answer a police officers questions. I've research DeBury V US. It doesn't say the police can't make a stop based solely on one carrying openly. It simple states that carrying openly, in and of itself, is not sufficient for reasonable suspicion. I know some cops, and most of them are decent guys just trying to do their job. They're not lawyers. They're peace keepers. In one sense I can understand the officer wanting to be sure everything is OK. That's what we pay them to do. The other side of the coin is "my rights" and how I choose to enforce them. Some places are more amenable to open carry than others. In the past, a common reason to stop someone for openly carrying was for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace. These two laws gave the police very broad powers. In 2009, the Wisconsin Attorney General issued an "advisory memorandum" which states "The Wisconsin Department of Justice believes that the mere open carrying of a firearm by a person, absent additional facts and circumstances, should not result in a disorderly conduct charge from a prosecutor." It doesn't prevent a prosecutor from making the charge. It simply suggests they don't. If you're going to use the confrontational approach with a police officer, know the various case laws supporting your right, and be prepared to not only sight them, but explain them, in detail, to the officer in a polite manner, as the young man in the video did. In a small town with only 5 or 6 cops, I think I may cooperate with the police if they stopped me for open carry. I wouldn't want to become know as a rebel anarchist. Hopefully, after a while, they would get to know me and just ignore me. But each locale and stop is different. So one needs to be flexible in their approach to each stop. That's my two cents worth.
genesis, the second option blows, because when you comply with the officers wishes, such as handing over id, or your firearm for that matter, now you are compelled to comply no matter what because you want your id and/or firearm back.
If you are within your rights stay there, do not, ever illegally forfeit your firearm, else you may never get it back.
Now I'm not saying be snotty about it, but officers these days are as often in the wrong as in the right, and it does not befit the citizen to knowingly let those in the wrong think they are right, for if we do it may not be long until wrong IS right (legally). and that would suck. a lot
Great discussion by all. I've been reading on the pros and cons of open carry and at this time my opinion is the following: Since I carry for personal protection, I'd rather lawfully carry concealed and not let the criminal know I'm carrying. If worst-case scenario occurs and my family or I find ourselves in need of using lethal force, I'd rather it be a nasty surprise; otherwise, a criminal may plan differently on a surprise attack from which I may be less prepared to respond.
I agree with ya FirstTenor.
You did mention that how one might want to respond to such encounters is entirely up to them and I agree. I also live in a small town with just a few police officers and a chief. The chief has known me for nearly 13 years so I doubt he would ask me anything were he to see me OC'ing (I think he has but I don't know this). I have only been approached by an LEO one time in the 17 years I have been carrying and that was in a local upper crust grocery store (Wegman's). Seems there was a MWAG call coupled with "acting suspicious". The officer who approached me never asked for a name or ID, and asked all of, as I recall, three questions then the conversation turned immediately to completely away from what he approached me for. It was VERY obvious to me that he felt he was wasting both his and my time, that the call was ridiculous, and I got the distinct impression he was embarrassed for having to bother me. The contact lasted for less than 90 seconds.
Police officers are pretty good judges of people though they see them through a negative light. Remember, they see pretty much all spectrums of society, from the best to the worse... and more often than not, the latter. So it's natural their opinions of people in general tend to be a bit jaded. If they see a "normal" person going into or exiting a store and just walking normal and they just happen to have a gun on their hip, they're going to watch them. But they will pretty quickly know whether or not this individual needs more than a casual look or not. The average OC'er heading to his car with a purchase is not going to appear threatening or questionable. The fact that he is armed might give an LEO a pause, but that's pretty much it. This is what I have observed in five years of OC'ing in my area. They might look for a moment but that's all. Several have given me the thumbs up sign, waved at me and smiled, and said things like 'Morning" or similar. Never anything like, "Hold up a moment there buddy". There may come a time, but it hasn't happened yet.
recording an encounter I think is good for the reason they have car cameras to protect them also.These are trained professionals but all professions are not 100 % correct all the time.We all have bad dr stories.I hear ccw for tactical but I dont want anyone around me to know.We all have a fav lil store we stop at frequently.If you are in there and it is robbed,what stops the clerk for yelling"you got a gun shoot him."You just lost all advantage.
This is a personal decision but this is just my opinion
I'm curious how this would have played out if the gun carrier had indeed been a bad guy. If he robbed a store or bank shortly after this encounter, and shot a person in the process, this cop would probably be getting a lot of heat from the families of the victims.
I see this as a sticky situation from both sides. Seems to me some simple cooperation wouldn't hurt, but that's just me.
Sorry about not being more clear.I was talking about OC.And I carry concealed and no one knows but immediate family.Now days most carry a cell with recording ability.But phones are also a killer of SA.Look at the text accidents.Sorry as I am not the most eloquent sometimes.
I agree about cops they think they know the gun laws and have no clue. I called my police department to ask them how much longer and that I have the utah pistol permit already would that expedite the process? The police woman told me it is illegal to have outof state gun license. I said ok hang up and lol what an idiot
Please keep in mind before I say another word, this is just my opinion. First, you always want a police officer to be in a calm state of mind when he/she is talking with you. Stress invites bad judgement calls in everyone. Whats wrong with answering a question or two if you have done nothing wrong or its not going to put you into a bad situation? Second, though I feel there is nothing wrong with open carry, I prefer to always carry concealed. That allows me to have the upper hand as to how I may handle a situation I may find myself in. Presenting a fire arm is not always the best way to defuse a situation. I proved this in down town Detroit Michigan a few years ago when a young man approached me and asked for my wallet. I was carrying but all I did was look at him and asked in a firm voice, Have you lost your entire F _ _ _ ing Mind? He looked at me and ran away. Now, yes, it could have turned ugly at that point but I was prepared to make my next move, that would have been putting my .45 in his face if he presented a stronger threat than he did with his demand.
If they want to see some ID, show it to them....but never surrender your firearm or consent to any searches......
I would have to Disagree with giving the officer any information. You do realize they are violating your rights when they start asking questions. Police are LEGALLY allowed to coerce you into answering questions. If they don't have a call for a MWAG, they will say that they do in order to get you to start talking.
Best advice i can give anyone is to NEVER talk to the police for any reason, at any time. Every lawyer would agree 100% with that statement. Nothing good comes from talking to the police and they will do whatever they can't to get more information out of you. So stand your ground, Ask if you are free to go or if you are being detained. If he says your being detained simply say "I will not speak any further without a lawyer present"
Man I hate cops sometimes X( Why do I wanna become one again?
For those who are of the mind to "Just show the ID. If you haven't done anything wrong, then don't worry about it". This mentality feeds the police to push a little further, intrude a little more, and step on civil rights again and again.
Remember the bank robbery last summer in Aurora, Colorado? The police chief issued orders to detain everyone at an intersection. People were removed from their cars, handcuffed, and made to sit for while their cars were searched. This is highly illegal. Now suppose one of these folks had been armed, openly or concealed - doesn't matter. He most likely would have found himself shoved to the ground, face down with knee in back. Again highly illegal.
Police want bodies. They will look, ask, quiz, and search if possible until they find something they can hang on you. I highly recommend you good people read "You & The Police" by Boston T. Party. A short, concise little handbook that contains many things you need when dealing with our employees who carry guns.