Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39
  1. #1
    bruce333's Avatar
    bruce333 is offline HGF Forum Moderator
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wilson's Mills, NC
    Posts
    2,496

    open carry law student VS Cop

    law student = 1
    cops = 0

    scroll down in the article for the video

    Law Student Takes Cop To School After Being Illegally Stopped For Carrying Gun Alex Jones' Infowars
    Bruce, Life Member: NRA, NCRPA, GRNC, GOA

    Naval Air Museum Barbers Point

    "I personally think we developed language because of our deep inner need to complain."--Jane Wagner
    "The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
    -Isaac Asimov

  2. #2
    NMpops is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Southern Arizona
    Posts
    52
    Glad it went well for him. There is no excuse whatsoever for a police officer to not know the law.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Sarasota Fla / Huntersville N.C.
    Posts
    459
    The one that screwed up is the dispatcher.
    Man with a gun?
    is she shooting it or pointing it at people?
    is he threatening people.?
    he's just walking along.

    Sorry that's not a crime. Have a nice day


    AFS

  4. #4
    genesis is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Northeast Wisconsin
    Posts
    144
    First off, I'm not a lawyer, or a police officer. Nor have I ever carried openly or concealed. Wisconsin has an open carry law and just recently passed a CC law, so I'm trying to educate myself. I've watched countless videos on youtube concerning open carry. There are two schools of thought on open carry when stopped by police. One is to take a confrontational approach as the young man in the video did and not co-cooperate with the police, as they did not have reasonable suspicion. The other is to cooperate, show some ID and be on your way. Many don't like the second option, but it to has its merits. One gun show on TV recommended this cooperative approach. Without reasonable suspicion, the police can still make a stop and our subsequent answers to their questions are considered "voluntary" as the officer is not "compelling" a response. Hence he is not violating any of our rights. Police can't "compel" a response without reasonable suspicion. Without reasonable suspicion you need not even tell them your name or show any ID. The rub comes in that, while not actually compelled, most people would "feel compelled" to answer a police officers questions. I've research DeBury V US. It doesn't say the police can't make a stop based solely on one carrying openly. It simple states that carrying openly, in and of itself, is not sufficient for reasonable suspicion. I know some cops, and most of them are decent guys just trying to do their job. They're not lawyers. They're peace keepers. In one sense I can understand the officer wanting to be sure everything is OK. That's what we pay them to do. The other side of the coin is "my rights" and how I choose to enforce them. Some places are more amenable to open carry than others. In the past, a common reason to stop someone for openly carrying was for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace. These two laws gave the police very broad powers. In 2009, the Wisconsin Attorney General issued an "advisory memorandum" which states "The Wisconsin Department of Justice believes that the mere open carrying of a firearm by a person, absent additional facts and circumstances, should not result in a disorderly conduct charge from a prosecutor." It doesn't prevent a prosecutor from making the charge. It simply suggests they don't. If you're going to use the confrontational approach with a police officer, know the various case laws supporting your right, and be prepared to not only sight them, but explain them, in detail, to the officer in a polite manner, as the young man in the video did. In a small town with only 5 or 6 cops, I think I may cooperate with the police if they stopped me for open carry. I wouldn't want to become know as a rebel anarchist. Hopefully, after a while, they would get to know me and just ignore me. But each locale and stop is different. So one needs to be flexible in their approach to each stop. That's my two cents worth.

    Don <><

    Don <><

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USS Constitution
    Posts
    379
    genesis, the second option blows, because when you comply with the officers wishes, such as handing over id, or your firearm for that matter, now you are compelled to comply no matter what because you want your id and/or firearm back.

    If you are within your rights stay there, do not, ever illegally forfeit your firearm, else you may never get it back.

    Now I'm not saying be snotty about it, but officers these days are as often in the wrong as in the right, and it does not befit the citizen to knowingly let those in the wrong think they are right, for if we do it may not be long until wrong IS right (legally). and that would suck. a lot

  6. #6
    genesis is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Northeast Wisconsin
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunners_Mate View Post
    genesis, the second option blows, because when you comply with the officers wishes, such as handing over id, or your firearm for that matter, now you are compelled to comply no matter what because you want your id and/or firearm back. If you are within your rights stay there, do not, ever illegally forfeit your firearm, else you may never get it back. Now I'm not saying be snotty about it, but officers these days are as often in the wrong as in the right, and it does not befit the citizen to knowingly let those in the wrong think they are right, for if we do it may not be long until wrong IS right (legally). and that would suck. a lot
    Hi Gunners Mate. There is a lot to be said for a "stick to your guns" approach, if the officer doesn't have or can't show reasonable suspicion. On the other hand, the better I get along with a cop, the less chance he'll hassle me. He may "ask" for my ID and ask a few questions to satisfy himself that I'm not doing anything illegal, and send me on my marry way. The next time he sees me, he'll just wave back as I wave at him. I would rather not alienate him if possible. Sometimes that may not be possible. Is this the way I would handle every stop? No. You have to read the situation and decide your course of action. He can "ask" you for ID or for you to turn over your gun, and while you don't have to comply if he doesn't have reasonable suspicion, you're in a situation where two people have guns and one of them is a cop. If something were to erupt, who's gonna win that court battle??? Your refusal to comply with his "request" is probably gonna put him on high alert. Now your safety over-rides your rights. Even when your legally in the right, you can push it to far. Sound judgment is required. You can turn over your weapon and make it clear that you're not doing it voluntarily. And, the police can't confiscate your weapon. If they do, you have legal recourse. Just as you have legal recourse if they arrest or detain you improperly. Ask for a supervisor to come to the scene. I wish it were all just cut and dried, and the person carrying openly and the police both just ignored each other. But in the real world, that's just not gonna happen, at least for awhile. How laws are enforced is up to the Chief of Police and the local DA. They may or may not favor open carry. If they don't, right or wrong, officers may be instructed to investigate every instance of open carry. That will probably change over time if and when more and more people carry openly. Just my 2 cents worth again. Now I got 4 cents in the pot ! Good talk'n with ya Gunners Mate !

    Don <><

  7. #7
    FirstTenor is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    4
    Great discussion by all. I've been reading on the pros and cons of open carry and at this time my opinion is the following: Since I carry for personal protection, I'd rather lawfully carry concealed and not let the criminal know I'm carrying. If worst-case scenario occurs and my family or I find ourselves in need of using lethal force, I'd rather it be a nasty surprise; otherwise, a criminal may plan differently on a surprise attack from which I may be less prepared to respond.

  8. #8
    genesis is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Northeast Wisconsin
    Posts
    144
    I agree with ya FirstTenor.

    Don <><

  9. #9
    berettatoter's Avatar
    berettatoter is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,339
    Quote Originally Posted by NMpops View Post
    Glad it went well for him. There is no excuse whatsoever for a police officer to not know the law.
    I agree with you here. Unfortunately, I think there are probably a lot of police that don't know the law as much as we would hope they do.

  10. #10
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
    SouthernBoy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Va
    Posts
    2,431
    Quote Originally Posted by genesis View Post
    Hi Gunners Mate. There is a lot to be said for a "stick to your guns" approach, if the officer doesn't have or can't show reasonable suspicion. On the other hand, the better I get along with a cop, the less chance he'll hassle me. He may "ask" for my ID and ask a few questions to satisfy himself that I'm not doing anything illegal, and send me on my marry way. The next time he sees me, he'll just wave back as I wave at him. I would rather not alienate him if possible. Sometimes that may not be possible. Is this the way I would handle every stop? No. You have to read the situation and decide your course of action. He can "ask" you for ID or for you to turn over your gun, and while you don't have to comply if he doesn't have reasonable suspicion, you're in a situation where two people have guns and one of them is a cop. If something were to erupt, who's gonna win that court battle??? Your refusal to comply with his "request" is probably gonna put him on high alert. Now your safety over-rides your rights. Even when your legally in the right, you can push it to far. Sound judgment is required. You can turn over your weapon and make it clear that you're not doing it voluntarily. And, the police can't confiscate your weapon. If they do, you have legal recourse. Just as you have legal recourse if they arrest or detain you improperly. Ask for a supervisor to come to the scene. I wish it were all just cut and dried, and the person carrying openly and the police both just ignored each other. But in the real world, that's just not gonna happen, at least for awhile. How laws are enforced is up to the Chief of Police and the local DA. They may or may not favor open carry. If they don't, right or wrong, officers may be instructed to investigate every instance of open carry. That will probably change over time if and when more and more people carry openly. Just my 2 cents worth again. Now I got 4 cents in the pot ! Good talk'n with ya Gunners Mate !

    Don <><
    This is the reason to record the incident. Then it's no longer his word against yours. Yes, an officer can approach you and ask a question or questions. If there is no RAS you do not have to answer and can just go on your way. Now whether or not you may want to do this is entirely up to you. So perhaps it would be better to ask, "Why are you detaining me officer?" Notice I didn't say, "Am I being detained?". The first example implies a response by the officer. If he responds with, "I'm not detaining you", then just wish him a good day and leave.

    You did mention that how one might want to respond to such encounters is entirely up to them and I agree. I also live in a small town with just a few police officers and a chief. The chief has known me for nearly 13 years so I doubt he would ask me anything were he to see me OC'ing (I think he has but I don't know this). I have only been approached by an LEO one time in the 17 years I have been carrying and that was in a local upper crust grocery store (Wegman's). Seems there was a MWAG call coupled with "acting suspicious". The officer who approached me never asked for a name or ID, and asked all of, as I recall, three questions then the conversation turned immediately to completely away from what he approached me for. It was VERY obvious to me that he felt he was wasting both his and my time, that the call was ridiculous, and I got the distinct impression he was embarrassed for having to bother me. The contact lasted for less than 90 seconds.

    Police officers are pretty good judges of people though they see them through a negative light. Remember, they see pretty much all spectrums of society, from the best to the worse... and more often than not, the latter. So it's natural their opinions of people in general tend to be a bit jaded. If they see a "normal" person going into or exiting a store and just walking normal and they just happen to have a gun on their hip, they're going to watch them. But they will pretty quickly know whether or not this individual needs more than a casual look or not. The average OC'er heading to his car with a purchase is not going to appear threatening or questionable. The fact that he is armed might give an LEO a pause, but that's pretty much it. This is what I have observed in five years of OC'ing in my area. They might look for a moment but that's all. Several have given me the thumbs up sign, waved at me and smiled, and said things like 'Morning" or similar. Never anything like, "Hold up a moment there buddy". There may come a time, but it hasn't happened yet.

  11. #11
    skullfr's Avatar
    skullfr is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Beaumont,Texas
    Posts
    311
    recording an encounter I think is good for the reason they have car cameras to protect them also.These are trained professionals but all professions are not 100 % correct all the time.We all have bad dr stories.I hear ccw for tactical but I dont want anyone around me to know.We all have a fav lil store we stop at frequently.If you are in there and it is robbed,what stops the clerk for yelling"you got a gun shoot him."You just lost all advantage.
    This is a personal decision but this is just my opinion

  12. #12
    SMann is offline Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    432
    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    We all have a fav lil store we stop at frequently.If you are in there and it is robbed,what stops the clerk for yelling"you got a gun shoot him."
    Why does the store clerk know you're carrying? It's called concealed carry for a reason. Your post was a little confusing, so if you were talking about open carry I couldn't tell. I like the idea of recording the encounter if possible. Maybe a smart phone with a built in video recorder should be added to the list of every day carry gear.

  13. #13
    Haas is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    119
    I'm curious how this would have played out if the gun carrier had indeed been a bad guy. If he robbed a store or bank shortly after this encounter, and shot a person in the process, this cop would probably be getting a lot of heat from the families of the victims.
    I see this as a sticky situation from both sides. Seems to me some simple cooperation wouldn't hurt, but that's just me.

  14. #14
    skullfr's Avatar
    skullfr is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Beaumont,Texas
    Posts
    311
    Sorry about not being more clear.I was talking about OC.And I carry concealed and no one knows but immediate family.Now days most carry a cell with recording ability.But phones are also a killer of SA.Look at the text accidents.Sorry as I am not the most eloquent sometimes.

  15. #15
    jd4life is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    2
    I agree about cops they think they know the gun laws and have no clue. I called my police department to ask them how much longer and that I have the utah pistol permit already would that expedite the process? The police woman told me it is illegal to have outof state gun license. I said ok hang up and lol what an idiot

  16. #16
    landis_lawton is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    15
    Please keep in mind before I say another word, this is just my opinion. First, you always want a police officer to be in a calm state of mind when he/she is talking with you. Stress invites bad judgement calls in everyone. Whats wrong with answering a question or two if you have done nothing wrong or its not going to put you into a bad situation? Second, though I feel there is nothing wrong with open carry, I prefer to always carry concealed. That allows me to have the upper hand as to how I may handle a situation I may find myself in. Presenting a fire arm is not always the best way to defuse a situation. I proved this in down town Detroit Michigan a few years ago when a young man approached me and asked for my wallet. I was carrying but all I did was look at him and asked in a firm voice, Have you lost your entire F _ _ _ ing Mind? He looked at me and ran away. Now, yes, it could have turned ugly at that point but I was prepared to make my next move, that would have been putting my .45 in his face if he presented a stronger threat than he did with his demand.

  17. #17
    berettabone is offline Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,366
    If they want to see some ID, show it to them....but never surrender your firearm or consent to any searches......

  18. #18
    goNYG's Avatar
    goNYG is offline Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
    If they want to see some ID, show it to them....but never surrender your firearm or consent to any searches......
    Bingo. Take the damn driver's license if you want officer, don't much like the picture anyway. Firearm? No way.

  19. #19
    Steveboos is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    15
    I would have to Disagree with giving the officer any information. You do realize they are violating your rights when they start asking questions. Police are LEGALLY allowed to coerce you into answering questions. If they don't have a call for a MWAG, they will say that they do in order to get you to start talking.

    Best advice i can give anyone is to NEVER talk to the police for any reason, at any time. Every lawyer would agree 100% with that statement. Nothing good comes from talking to the police and they will do whatever they can't to get more information out of you. So stand your ground, Ask if you are free to go or if you are being detained. If he says your being detained simply say "I will not speak any further without a lawyer present"

    Easy stuff!

  20. #20
    niadhf's Avatar
    niadhf is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Rural New York
    Posts
    1,197

    open carry law student VS Cop

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveboos View Post
    I would have to Disagree with giving the officer any information. You do realize they are violating your rights when they start asking questions. Police are LEGALLY allowed to coerce you into answering questions. If they don't have a call for a MWAG, they will say that they do in order to get you to start talking.

    Best advice i can give anyone is to NEVER talk to the police for any reason, at any time. Every lawyer would agree 100% with that statement. Nothing good comes from talking to the police and they will do whatever they can't to get more information out of you. So stand your ground, Ask if you are free to go or if you are being detained. If he says your being detained simply say "I will not speak any further without a lawyer present"

    Easy stuff!
    Yep. Good advice. Ask AIFTG. AIBD. And either walk away (if you are not being detained) or say I want a supervisor and my lawyer,the STFU!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

law student gunner vs cop
,
law student open carry video
,

law student schools cop

,

law student schools cop on open carry law

,

law student vs cop

,
law student vs cop, concealled carry
,

law student wins vs cop

,
lawstudentsscollingcops.com
,
open carry vs cops
,
vidio of law student schooling cop on carring gun
,
virginia open carry can police take my gun?
,

what cops think about open carry

Click on a term to search for related topics.

Tags for this Thread

» Springfield Armory

» HGF Sponsors

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.1