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  1. #21
    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haas View Post
    I'm curious how this would have played out if the gun carrier had indeed been a bad guy. If he robbed a store or bank shortly after this encounter, and shot a person in the process, this cop would probably be getting a lot of heat from the families of the victims.
    I see this as a sticky situation from both sides. Seems to me some simple cooperation wouldn't hurt, but that's just me.
    If the cop were looking for a robber who fit the mans description then he would then have suspicion and the man would have had to show id...

  2. #22
    Haas is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny1636 View Post
    If the cop were looking for a robber who fit the mans description then he would then have suspicion and the man would have had to show id...
    That's not quite what I was saying. At the point where the police officer contacted this guy, he would not have robbed anyone yet. Thus, fitting a description of a robber wouldn't apply yet. But, if this encounter happened, the guy robbed a bank 5 minutes afterwards, and someone got shot and killed in that process, these cops would probably get a lot of heat for not being more forceful.

  3. #23
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    Man I hate cops sometimes X( Why do I wanna become one again?

  4. #24
    Benny1636 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haas View Post
    That's not quite what I was saying. At the point where the police officer contacted this guy, he would not have robbed anyone yet. Thus, fitting a description of a robber wouldn't apply yet. But, if this encounter happened, the guy robbed a bank 5 minutes afterwards, and someone got shot and killed in that process, these cops would probably get a lot of heat for not being more forceful.
    Yes but you cant violate the rights of innocent civilians in order to possibly prevent future crimes. Otherwise, why not make it illegal to carry at all, in order to prevent any gun crimes commited by legal firearms?

  5. #25
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
    SouthernBoy is online now Senior Member
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    For those who are of the mind to "Just show the ID. If you haven't done anything wrong, then don't worry about it". This mentality feeds the police to push a little further, intrude a little more, and step on civil rights again and again.

    Remember the bank robbery last summer in Aurora, Colorado? The police chief issued orders to detain everyone at an intersection. People were removed from their cars, handcuffed, and made to sit for while their cars were searched. This is highly illegal. Now suppose one of these folks had been armed, openly or concealed - doesn't matter. He most likely would have found himself shoved to the ground, face down with knee in back. Again highly illegal.

    Police want bodies. They will look, ask, quiz, and search if possible until they find something they can hang on you. I highly recommend you good people read "You & The Police" by Boston T. Party. A short, concise little handbook that contains many things you need when dealing with our employees who carry guns.

  6. #26
    Haas is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny1636 View Post
    Yes but you cant violate the rights of innocent civilians in order to possibly prevent future crimes. Otherwise, why not make it illegal to carry at all, in order to prevent any gun crimes commited by legal firearms?
    Yes, I agree. It's kind of a catch 22. More often than not, the very people who bitch about cops not doing enough, are the same ones that bitch when the cops do too much.
    This is why I'm a proponent of CC, but not open carry. When the general public sees a person walking down the street or sidewalk, with a big ol' pistol at his side, someone will get paranoid and nervous about it, and call the cops, which seems to be what started this incident.

  7. #27
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    imntacrook is offline Junior Member
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    Good answer!

  8. #28
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haas View Post
    with a big ol' pistol at his side, someone will get paranoid and nervous about it, and call the cops, which seems to be what started this incident.
    You know and this just brings me back to one of my frusterations with this society.

    A gun in itself means nothing, its a tool. Yet the mainstream society has a built up paranoia when they even see PICTURES or TOYS that look like guns.

    You know what, that means their is something wrong with them. I CC because as mentioned by Haas, people are paranoid, but I do respect people who OC because people's paranoia is really not my problem.

    As my brother says, if people are worried about a guy walking down the street with a gun openly, maybe they should carry a gun (instead of infringing upon MY right to do so)

  9. #29
    Haas is offline Member
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    The main thing that makes people nervous about open carry, is in this day and age, it's not typical to see anyone carrying. In the days of the wild west, when everyone carried, it was no big deal because everyone did it, and it was a common site. But in today's society with the rash of freaks that go and shoot up everyone in a school or theater, it's got everyone on edge, and as soon as they see that gun on someones hip, it's panic time.

  10. #30
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haas View Post
    The main thing that makes people nervous about open carry, is in this day and age, it's not typical to see anyone carrying. In the days of the wild west, when everyone carried, it was no big deal because everyone did it, and it was a common site. But in today's society with the rash of freaks that go and shoot up everyone in a school or theater, it's got everyone on edge, and as soon as they see that gun on someones hip, it's panic time.
    But heres the funny thing. Mass shooting sprees and killings are not more common then they were back in those days.

    I know the FEAR of mass shootings is more common but that is because of the media.

    Nothing to fear but fear itself. Theres a quote that never gets ingrained in people's heads these days. They use the fear to manipulate us. In my opinion, Mind control is real and they have us figured out pretty darn well...

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haas View Post
    The main thing that makes people nervous about open carry, is in this day and age, it's not typical to see anyone carrying. In the days of the wild west, when everyone carried, it was no big deal because everyone did it, and it was a common site. But in today's society with the rash of freaks that go and shoot up everyone in a school or theater, it's got everyone on edge, and as soon as they see that gun on someones hip, it's panic time.
    Keep in mind that you're talking about your perspective in your state of Wisconsin. What you have written is not the case is a number of other states and mine is one of them.

    The problem with what you state is that folks who think this way are viewing things through tainted lenses. They fail to take into consideration that what may be the case in one state is not the case in others. Where I live, about 35 miles from Washington, DC, we just don't see what you have described. I am not going to say that there are zero problems with open carry, but it is darned close to that here. I have openly carried over the past 5 1/2 years into restaurants (many of them - two this week), small town festivals, police stations/precincts, stores, banks, gas stations, big box businesses, liquor stores, our state capital, legislators' building and offices, and on an on. And in this entire time, I have only had one negative encounter. That was from a man in a McDonald's in August 2009 who claimed he was a retired LEO. However judging from his accent, he was not from Virginia... most likely from the northeast.

    So blanket and general statements are just that. And while they may have some basis in fact for specific areas, they are NOT true for the entire nation.

    Now one other thing about open carry that is constantly brought up as a reason for not carrying in this mode and that is "you are going to be the first person taken out by a BG". Well, this just doesn't seem to be happening. Has it happened? I know of one case in my state but the man went back into the business and was disarmed and shot by his own gun. Is it a possibility? Of course it is. Is it likely to happen? History has not shown this to be the case.

    For the record, I support both modes of carry and I do both. Most of the time I open carry and I have what I believe to be excellent reasons for this (of course, I owe no one a reason or excuse). And there are times when I deem it to be in my interests to conceal. But there is this. In my state, concealing a sidearm is the queer thing to do; the exceptional thing, whereas to openly carry your firearm is the normal thing (read that as standard or default thing). I say this because no permit is required to open carry, but one must obtain permission from their employees to conceal. So open carry is normal whereas concealed carry is abnormal based upon the requirement of a CHP to conceal.

  12. #32
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeleinen1 View Post
    But heres the funny thing. Mass shooting sprees and killings are not more common then they were back in those days.

    I know the FEAR of mass shootings is more common but that is because of the media.

    Nothing to fear but fear itself. Theres a quote that never gets ingrained in people's heads these days. They use the fear to manipulate us. In my opinion, Mind control is real and they have us figured out pretty darn well...
    Yes they are. Mass shootings in the later 1800's were quite rare... almost non-existent. The same goes for murders by firearms. And if we look at the period between 1950 and 1960, mass shootings were also quite rare. We didn't begin to see an upturn until the mid-60's.

  13. #33
    Haas is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Keep in mind that you're talking about your perspective in your state of Wisconsin. What you have written is not the case is a number of other states and mine is one of them.

    The problem with what you state is that folks who think this way are viewing things through tainted lenses. They fail to take into consideration that what may be the case in one state is not the case in others. Where I live, about 35 miles from Washington, DC, we just don't see what you have described. I am not going to say that there are zero problems with open carry, but it is darned close to that here. I have openly carried over the past 5 1/2 years into restaurants (many of them - two this week), small town festivals, police stations/precincts, stores, banks, gas stations, big box businesses, liquor stores, our state capital, legislators' building and offices, and on an on. And in this entire time, I have only had one negative encounter. That was from a man in a McDonald's in August 2009 who claimed he was a retired LEO. However judging from his accent, he was not from Virginia... most likely from the northeast.

    So blanket and general statements are just that. And while they may have some basis in fact for specific areas, they are NOT true for the entire nation.

    Now one other thing about open carry that is constantly brought up as a reason for not carrying in this mode and that is "you are going to be the first person taken out by a BG". Well, this just doesn't seem to be happening. Has it happened? I know of one case in my state but the man went back into the business and was disarmed and shot by his own gun. Is it a possibility? Of course it is. Is it likely to happen? History has not shown this to be the case.

    For the record, I support both modes of carry and I do both. Most of the time I open carry and I have what I believe to be excellent reasons for this (of course, I owe no one a reason or excuse). And there are times when I deem it to be in my interests to conceal. But there is this. In my state, concealing a sidearm is the queer thing to do; the exceptional thing, whereas to openly carry your firearm is the normal thing (read that as standard or default thing). I say this because no permit is required to open carry, but one must obtain permission from their employees to conceal. So open carry is normal whereas concealed carry is abnormal based upon the requirement of a CHP to conceal.
    I'm not necessarily dis-agreeing with you here, but, I've been to quite a number of other states, (of course, not all) and I saw no one open carrying ever. If your state has people open carrying, with very few issues, that's great, I applaud it. But, I'd be willing to bet, what's seen in my state is probably more common than what's seen in your state.
    I'm sounding argumentative here, but I'm not trying to be. Just talkin'.

  14. #34
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haas View Post
    I'm not necessarily dis-agreeing with you here, but, I've been to quite a number of other states, (of course, not all) and I saw no one open carrying ever. If your state has people open carrying, with very few issues, that's great, I applaud it. But, I'd be willing to bet, what's seen in my state is probably more common than what's seen in your state.
    I'm sounding argumentative here, but I'm not trying to be. Just talkin'.
    No, you're fine.

    A number of states' citizens are pretty easy going and acceptable when seeing people open carry. Your best bet is to visit opencarry.org and peruse the state forums to see how it is in the states. And most of the members on that site are more than willing to give you information.

    In the "earlier" days of OC'ing in Virginia, there were some incidences of negative and uninformed police encounters (uninformed on the part of the police, that is). Those were quickly addressed and the involved individuals told how to conduct themselves when encountering armed citizens. We even had situations were we swarmed town council meetings, while armed, to voice our concerns. The word did go out and the requisite corrections were made. When there are problems of this kind in my state, it is more often in the southeastern part (Tidewater). Up where I live, negative encounters are extremely rare to nearly non-existent.

  15. #35
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    I don't have a problem with open carry. What I do have a problem with are these smart asses who walk around OC'ing with a video camera just looking for a confrontation. They're no different than those who elect to show their CC permit at a traffic stop.

  16. #36
    Haas is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LePetomane View Post
    I don't have a problem with open carry. What I do have a problem with are these smart asses who walk around OC'ing with a video camera just looking for a confrontation. They're no different than those who elect to show their CC permit at a traffic stop.
    Yeah, me too. But your comment about the people showing a CC permit during a traffic stop is interesting. When I took my CC class, they were telling us that to show it during a traffic stop, or any other interactions with the police, is the right thing to do. We were told, and this is by a person who actually was and still is currently a cop, that showing it will be appreciated by the officer. ???

  17. #37
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    I don't think that there is a correct answer to this. Either way is a gamble. Speaking for myself, I would not. I think you run the risk of a police officer with anti-gun views giving you a rough time, all within the confines of legality. Besides they run your drivers license and find it in their database anyways.

  18. #38
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    Re: open carry law student VS Cop

    In MI you are required by law to inform an officer that you have a CPL during a traffic stop or official encounter (not casual like simply walking by and saying "hello" )... or your gun license can be revoked.

    These videos are posted by individuals attempting to get law enforcement attention and set the tone for the entire interaction. I see too many individuals "baiting" cops into arguements and throw out case law and statutes that they've memorized in preparation for their anticipated encounter. Most officers are simply responding to a call of a suspicious man with gun... it's no different than a call of someone walking down the street looking in cars, in the fact that when the officer arrives he may simply see this individual walking down the street. He very well may have been up to a suspicious activity or actually looking into vehicles. Police have an obligation to at least stop the individual and assertain if something is amiss.

    Before people start condeming cops for doing their job and commending these idiots with cameras and personal agendas... you should ask yourself how hard is it to simply ID yourself if you've done nothing wrong... instead of arguing and drawing more attention to yourself.

    I'm all for OC & CC... but feel CC makes more sense. I value individuals rights too... but what do you really gain by being uncooperative?

    You can't have your cake & eat it too... people want police to be proactive and stop crime but don't want them to investigate a call regarding a MWG? What if he was doing something suspicious? The officer dosen't know, and being difficult only raises suspicion even further.

    I see both sides to this issue and feel a lot of cops are not always up to date on every law as some are not enforced often or that situation has never presented itself to an officer. We are human... after all.

    End rant.

  19. #39
    Haas is offline Member
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    Well said!! ^^^^^

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