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  1. #1
    Survivor's Avatar
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    The other side of the coin.

    We have all heard about, discussed, or maybe just thought about this scenario:

    You are suddenly faced with two or more attackers. Your means of escape has been compromised and you are forced to make a stand. One of your attackers has a visible weapon (firearm) and threatening you. It is now all about survival...who do you shoot first? Well, that's easy, the one with the gun.

    So lets look at the other side of the coin:

    A bad guy decides to visit a certain establishment because of what they have inside. They have it, he needs (wants) it, and he decides he will kill if necessary to take it. He goes there armed and hides his piece under a light jacket or loose shirt. He's inside sizing up his situation, yep they have what he wants and there are only two other people there. The only wrinkle in his plan is the guy openly carrying a gun. He is not dissuaded from his intent, but rather moves to a more tactically advantaged spot in the place. OK, now it's game time...who does he decide to shoot first?

    I'm just saying that in this case I would prefer to be carrying concealed and at least have a chance to defend myself. I also realise that I have just placed an open flame on a powder keg. To all those who prefer to carry openly, this was not intended as a slam but merely food for thought.

    Survivor

  2. #2
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    You won't find a lot of opposition to your viewpoint here as there aren't a whole heck of a lot of OC'ers on this forum.

    That being said, while the above scenario/ideas are very valid, a squared away carrier has a couple of means to prevent such a scenario.

    • When seated, say at a restaurant, stick to booths and keep your gun side inboard so it is not visible.
    • No flashy guns, a black gun in a brown holster, over a black shirt and brown pants is not going to be nearly as easy to detect from those doing a quick scan.
    • Jackets slung over the shoulder, a newspaper, of just keeping your arm over you can can obscure it from casual observance without "concealing" the gun.
    • Situational awareness as to how you are positioned in your environment in general and avoid establishing a routine that may set you up for ambush. Don't walk the dog down the same path every night @ 9:30PM before going to bed etc.

    I will also point out that this occurrence has not happened yet...note I said YET. Some will bring up the Waffle House Not Robbery where the would-be robbers armed with long guns passed on robbing the establishment due to two open carriers being inside. That's all well and good but as the original post here mentioned, had they really, really wanted to rob that store, they could have come in shooting. Thankfully they were not willing to add murder 1 to an armed robbery charge if caught.

  3. #3
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    hi,

    i am TedDeBearFrmHell and i am a 24/7 open carry guy. and while i do see that the tactical advantage in your scenario is lost on the good guy what you failed to realize that anyone can build a scenario that "proves" any idea they wish to promote..... just a few days ago there was a thread where diane sawyer "proved" that concealed carry doesnt do anyone any good either.

    you can find me actively posting on the oregon section of opencarry.org . many of us are accused of "flaunting" our carry and justifiably so.... i council maturity but advice is not always taken.

    i usually appendix carry my p6 in a yaqui slide, its right there for anyone to if they are looking. but i been carrying long enough that i dont spend any time finger banging it either.

  4. #4
    Cat's Avatar
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  5. #5
    rgrundy's Avatar
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    Deciding who to shoot is easy. You take the easiest target first and the next second. It's going to happen in probably 2 seconds from holster to finish if there's only two targets to engage so why be worried about who's armed? If two guys confront me and one is armed I'll assume they are both dangerous and target both. If the guy who's planning a robbery is any good at all he would move to a spot with tactical advantage to begin with so you're screwed from the start no matter what. If any of the bad guys are amateurs then they well may miss, then game on.

  6. #6
    MLB's Avatar
    MLB
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    I'd support anyone that would like to open carry, but I prefer to be more of a threat than I appear. I'm not hired to be anyone's security guard, and there's no advantage to me by playing "fair" with anyone that would consider pointing a firearm at me.

  7. #7
    berettatoter's Avatar
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  8. #8
    sgms is offline Member
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    Yup you set a match to a fuse all right Going to be interesting to see where this one goes.

  9. #9
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Another OC argument, having your gun taken away and used against you. I think this is the first time I've heard this happen to a "civilian"

    Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories | Richmond Times-Dispatch

    Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
    Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.
    "The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
    According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

  10. #10
    berettatoter's Avatar
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    If I were to carry openly, I would do so only in a retention holster or something of the sort. Even the police have retention holsters.

  11. #11
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    My only thing is what good does it do to carry concealed if you are risk getting it or yourself tangled up in your clothing. besides when there is a guy with a gun and he is looking at you then you start raising up your shirt or reaching in your jacket you risk getting shot also. So that point really isn't valid.

    i have seen stories where concealed gun carriers have been shot with their gun still holstered and concealed. Didn't give them any kind of tactical advantage there. The whole having your gun taken away from you is very overrated. besides a good retention level holster anyway and that will stop a quick snatch and grab.

  12. #12
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brevard13 View Post
    ...[W]hat good does it do to carry concealed if you are risk getting it or yourself tangled up in your clothing[?]...
    If you practice your presentation, rather than leaving it to chance, you will not tangle your pistol in your clothing.

    If you practice your presentation, you will find that raising your shirt or reaching into your jacket will happen so quickly, and thus can be done at the very last moment, that it will not become a "giveaway."

    Further, if you really have practiced your defensive-shooting technique, you will find that you can shoot very effectively, even when your pistol is tangled in your clothes. You may ruin your shirt or jacket, but you will save your life.

    But, you gotta practice.

  13. #13
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    I am going to have to disagree with you on some of that. Practice and muscle memory can only help so much. I am a believer in Murphy's Law. I mean there are alot of what ifs to play out in that scenario. I mean you can figure in anything from the bad guys reflexes being faster, to you not being as observant (maybe you have alot on your mind) so on and so forth. For me I can have shirts in the same size that all fit and wear different. I know for me there is always a slight difference in the way I move and can present in the clothes I wear, and the majority is never, ever the same. This is why I am a firm believer in a OWB holster and a untucked shirt or wear a jacket as opposed to the IWB and a tucked in shirt. No matter how much you practice there is liable to be something that always happens. Your raise your shirt to turn your arm bumps the shelf and you don't make a clean draw bad gun turns and shoots. Like I said alot of what if's. In my opinion it is just alot simplier is all you have to do is draw, point and shoot; instead of moving clothing, drawing, pointing, and shooting.

    For me I like the know I have the right to open carry. I also like the fact that I don't have to be as careful when carrying concealed. if i bend over and my shirt moves and you can see the bottom of my holster, or I turn and it prints then so be it. I can't get caught for brandishing a weapon or considered terrorizing the public if there is no anti open carry law (which I am proud my state permits open carry).

    if you are shooting from the hip tangled in your clothes you had A) better be close enough to know you are going to hit the bad guy, B) better be a damn good shot. I wouldn't chance it because fo the risk of hitting someone I never intended to shoot. I mean if he a bad guy has grabbed me and it is almost point blank range then fine. but I assumed we were talking about being some distance away and there are too many variables that can happen when firing from the hip through clothing.

  14. #14
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Brevard13;
    Please enlighten me about your experience with pistols in general, and with defensive shooting in particular.
    You may have something to teach me, but I won't know that until I have a good idea of what's in your background.

    How often do you practice, and what sort of scenarios do you use for your practice?
    Do you indulge in any reasonably practical, formal competition which prepares you for self-defense? If so, what and how often?
    How long have you been doing this?
    For how long have you held a concealed-carry permit? How long have you been carrying, if that's different for some reason?
    Have you any military or police experience?
    Have I left anything out?

  15. #15
    MLB's Avatar
    MLB
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    While there is a pretty clear advantage to accessing your firearm in an open-carry situation, it seems to me that the disadvantage of letting an aggressor know you're armed at all is far greater.

    Regardless if your weapon is openly carried or concealed, an aggressor will necessarily have a weapon out first.

  16. #16
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Brevard13;
    Please enlighten me about your experience with pistols in general, and with defensive shooting in particular.
    You may have something to teach me, but I won't know that until I have a good idea of what's in your background.

    How often do you practice, and what sort of scenarios do you use for your practice?
    Do you indulge in any reasonably practical, formal competition which prepares you for self-defense? If so, what and how often?
    How long have you been doing this?
    For how long have you held a concealed-carry permit? How long have you been carrying, if that's different for some reason?
    Have you any military or police experience?
    Have I left anything out?
    I feel you rather hastily posted this and didn't think your post out very throughly before posting. I'm sensing alittle sarcasism in your post. I usually don't respond because sometimes I have been known to get angry (especially like now when I havent had much sleep and am in a bad mood). If you weren't being sarcastic then I will apologize. Hence why I said I will have to disagree with you. After all it is my opinion in which I am entitled to. You don't agree that is fine. But, please don't try to talk down to me like I don't know what I am talking about. I may not be the most knowledgable person. But, I have done some research and while my training and stuff might be limited I do have enough to base my opinion. I won't comment on something if I don't have some experience in it. If you don't agree wiht me that is fine tell me why. you might not have meant anything by it but anytime I have ever heard the please enlighten me it was either done to belittle the person who was speaking or because the person was so high up on themselves they couldn't fathom they might be wrong and were hoping that they could just demean the person a bit to where it might discredit anything they have or will say.

    This is why I don't like the internet and stuff. It is hard to tell when someone is being sincere, sarcastic, or a plain ass. When I read it based on how I have always heard it use I pictured a very sarcastic and demeaning tone even though you may have not meant it. What you did hear was almost like what Bulldog said to you in the Nightsighters thread that you took offense to. I was almost tempted to not respond. However, I feel my og post however has merit that alot of people won't take into consideration. Like I said there are always what if's.

    Then there is the whole adrenaline thing kicking in. Adrealine, tunnel vision, muscle tightening up prohibiting fluid movement and making simple movements difficult (which will hender muscle memory). I have heard of someone getting scared or nervous and not being able to work the manual safety on their gun. Heard of one guy that tried to work the safety and hit the magazine release and never knew it. If it would have been more than just a squirrel in the house he woul dhave been screwed.

    please, please, please don't talk to me like I am talking out of my ass. I do have some knowledge. I expressed my opinion. I give my reason on the whole muscle memory and aderaline. What I was trying to say for the average person who won't practice it is easier for them to fiddle with their shirt then draw the weapon. Or just to draw the weapon. but just because it contradicts what you think please don't try to belittle me for stating my opinion. People can and will disagree. But, unfortunately it is post like this that make me hesitant to post on forums much. It is an opinion take it or leave it.

    I am sory for the rant. Last time I heard the enlighten me I was on a paintball forum and a guy asked a question about a gun in which i was very knowledgeable in (even had the person who owned and operated the company comment on this on the same forum). I had a guy that wanted to argue something I knew wouldn't work. And his post was almost similar to yours. Please enlighten me on this since you think you know everything. I am right now I am just starting to get worked up over something petty and probably taken out of context so I will just answer your questions for the sake of staying awake and getting tired of watching the stupid camera monitors.

    I have had a good number of family memembers in the military. I have been shown alittle of what they were taught. I was given alittle instruction from a USMC firearms instructor when he came to visit my cousin for vacation last year (not really anything I hadn't been shown already). Now my wife's family has alot of LEO's. And I am very good friends with alot of the Sheriff's Dept and Police Dept officers. Some because of my jiu-jitsu class and alot from playing men's softball (mostly Sheriff's Dept). I know the majority of the teachers who do the BLET classes. Including the firearms instructor who does the qualifications testing for the officers during the year. I have had the ability to learn from them (and their training varies from schools, to military and whatnot). Currently I am working for a security company that only lets people with military or law enforcement training (which can be varified) to work armed sites. I have talked to the firearms instructor and he agrees I know more than alot of the people they have take the class and am a better shot but I just don't have the varification which IMO is stupid, but what can you do. I'm just from one of those little hicktowns so what I consider a decent amount of training might not be much compared to someone elses. but I do know that I have had more than alot of people have.

    1. I practice whenever I get a chance. As far as live fire. Since my wife and I moved into the city limits I can't fire my gun outside (unless in a self defense situation). I am not even sure if I can shoot a snake in the yard without getting in trouble for discharging a firearm in city limits. I keep forgetting to ask. So now I rely on the indoor range for the most part for my live fire shooting. I can't practice shooting from sitting or laying down at the range. But I still try to go at least once a week. I try to go more when especially if I have a couple of bad days in a row or just need some stress relief. Every so often I will go to my cousin's house and practice stuff in his yard. Such as drawing and firing from a seated position. Drawing, shooting, and reloading lay down (back, side, stomach). I have even take a chair set it on its back and laid down on it with my feet in the air and practice shooting semi upside down (like someone pushed you over and the guy that was behind you is coming up on you).

    As far as the rest I purchased some snap caps and practice in my house. Malfunctions, draw from sitting or laying down. Worked on being in the bed and responding quickly if I hear somehting (which is getting the flashlight, phone and pistol). room clearing (though thankfully with the house layout and the fact it isn't that big it isn't very hard). I practice moving around the house outside just because you never know). I also sit in my truck and practice drawing and stuff from seated with a seatbelt on. I also do other things like practice one hand reloads. Racking the gun off my thigh or boot if for some reason I am hurt or whatever and down to one arm. I do however need to work on my offhand stuff alot more because even with the practice I am still very weak at this. This type of stuff depending on sleep and stuff I do about once a day or ever couple of days.

    2. I don't have the luxury of any kind of competitions. There is one local shooting competition that I have a friend who does. He said overall the competition isnt very good. he only has one eye and has trouble seeing sometimes. Not a very good shot and he usually places pretty high. I have found some more self defense type competitions. but I don't have the time nor means to really travel to compete. Especially on a regular basis.

    3. As for how long I have been shooting. I'm almost 34. My uncle (even though my mom hated it) started me shooting when 3 and 4 with BB Guns. When I was between 5 and 6 years old I started with a .22lr rifle and a .22lr revolver. Started shooting more as I got older. Started carrying when I was 21 (thank God for open carry). Mainly in the car with the gun on the passenger seat (here you can carry in your car if the gun is on the dash or in the seat and not covered up).

    4. I have had my concealed permit for 4 yrs. I have been carrying it longer (if you count around my house and family's house = parent's, grandparent's, aunt and uncle's house). I had to carry concealed there because my mom is terrified of guns. She knew I had my pistol on my but if it was concealed and she couldn't see it then she would forget about it and it didn't bother her.

    5. Played paintball for alittle over 12 years. We even did the little paintball pistols (PGP's) put in holsters. Did the whole dual thing where we paced and everything. Now grant it because paintball are round and sometimes they aren't even perfectly round it still gives you a general idea of what it is like to have to draw from a holster quickly. Alot of people don't realize what it is like to be shot at. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be shot at in real life. But, paintball was enough to make you think. Adrenaline rush, tunnel vision, muscles tensing up which makes everything from aiming, to running hard to do. You experience it even more when you are the last one left defending a base and there are over 100 guys shooting at you or in your direction.

    5. No military experience. Went to sign up for the Army. Went to MEPS. They were concerned over my weight and that give my a temporary disqualification and told me if I lost the whole 8 pounds I could re-do everything there and I would be GTG. Of course then they looked at the shoulder I had broken. It never healed up right so every so often it would hurt and I would have limited range of motion. I say would but it still does. I even tried to lie and say it wasn't that bad but they said they wouldn't take me. I have toyed with the idea of BLET even though I haven't decided if I really wanted to be in law-enforcement. Though everyone I know loves it for the most part. My brother in law was trying hard to get me to do it. Of course he loves his job. He carries a gun and flies a helicopter for the Highway Patrol.

    Now I have found out that due to my job they will actually help pay for BLET. So I may take it just to take it and then I can put in for a site post that allows me to carry my gun.

    Now you know as well as I do that just because you practice something doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to excute that action when the time comes. You can say muscle memory all you want but even then sometimes that isnt enough. Just remember Murphy's law "Anything that can wrong will go wrong". Which may be from a malfunction, to getting tangled in a shirt, even the possiblity you drop your gun on accident during a situation.

    - I play alot of softball. When we practice we hit over 100 balls at a time. It isn't nothing for you to hit 500-1000 depending on time and if you have enough people to pitch. All that practice come game time you might drop a shoulder, make your stance to wide, swing a tad bit earlier or later, miss hit the ball, catch the ball off the wrong part of the bat. And though you were killing the ball at practice you do bad one game.

    - I did alot of paintball tournaments. Speedball, Airball, woodsball, hyperball. We drilled and drilled and drilled. Who was moving, who would do this and who would do that. Every situation makes things unpredictable. And things never go as planned. That is why you see alot of blown plays offensively and defensively in football.

    But,I said that to say this. I have practiced drawing from concealed (and that is why from experience I can't stand IWB holsters with a shirt tucked in). But I know that something will possibly happen to where I can't quickly or flawlessly execute pulling my shirt up, drawing my weapon, and getting a good sight picture. I know if I can't without practice that alot of people who refuse to put the practice in won't be able to either. But like I said earlier their are alot of what if's that play into a sceanrio that was mentioned earlier.

    It is also MY OPINION that people put too much thought into a snatch and grab on open carry. While yes it is possible, and yes it has happened. With all the places you can open carry I haven't heard many of these snatch and grab stories. And like I said before. Criminals want easy targets/prey. You have a 95% chance that if they know you are willing to defend yourself or you have the means to do it you will avoid being a victim. I mean seriously think about it. You are wanting to rob someone. So you go for the muscular fit guy or do you go after the small petite or an elderly woman. Do you try to attack the guy with the gun if you know he has chance of shooting you dead if you mess up.

    I put my thoughts into both the victim and the attacker. Hence why I feel that open carry isn't as bad as everyone says. I also put my thoughts into which would be easier to draw and fire when adrealine is kicking in. Concealed where you have to move clothing or a straight draw and fire. I am not completely disagreeing with you Steve just some of it. And it has just been off what I have been told, some studying, and some scenarios that have played in my mind. Like you mentioned shooting through your clothes if you become tangled up. I don't agree with that mainly due to inexperienced people shooting themselves or an innocent bystander.

    I can see how some people would consider it a disadvantage as if they would be targetted first if someone knew they had a gun. But then again from what I know about criminals (lazy and cowardly) you run a better chance of not getting attacked because you are carrying open.

    Now what I meant to say before is. I think it should be legal everywhere. you can make arguments for and against it all day long. But at least give people the option do decide.

    NOTE: please ignore any typos, grammar errors, spelling errors. I am dead tired right now and this is the second time I had to type this due to accidently deleting it the first time

  17. #17
    rgrundy's Avatar
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    Like Steve said, if you have a lifestyle and dressstyle for CCW and practice things will go very smoothly when you draw. Usually anything you do 3000 times becomes a natural act like throwing a punch or drawing a weapon. As for being angry, usually the calm ones win competitions and real gunfights so my suggestion is to work towards that goal.

  18. #18
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    i open carry cause i am just awesome enough to pull off that kind of badassery!


  19. #19
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    Your awesomeness comes through in all your posts. I want to be as awesome as you one day, until then I must continue to practice. Because practice is truly a good and proven way to become better at your chosen task and to move the task from a process of thought to second nature. Anything you aspire to be competent at demands not only caonstant practice but perfect practice.

    wish me luck

    RCG how awesome is that?

  20. #20
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    Your awesomeness comes through in all your posts. I want to be as awesome as you one day, until then I must continue to practice. Because practice is truly a good and proven way to become better at your chosen task and to move the task from a process of thought to second nature. Anything you aspire to be competent at demands not only caonstant practice but perfect practice.

    wish me luck

    RCG how awesome is that?
    totally awesome in every way my friend!

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