Open Carry Incident
Below is a link to a netcast called Gun Nuts Radio. They have an interview with Brian Ledford, an Ohio resident and CCW holder who is stopped by police for open carry. What makes this interesting is Brian has an audio recording of the incident(I think he turned his camera phone on and dropped it in his pocket).
They get to the audio recording pretty early in the show, within 5 to 7 minutes and the recording is about 10 minutes long. Give it a listen because Im curious how people will view this incident.
That was a rather preachy fellow who should learn when to shut up, and a hostile and sadly misinformed cop. Interesting incident, though, thanks for the post.
EDIT: I checked into Ohio open carry law and found this:
If there's no other laws addressing open carry of a handgun, seems pretty clear that this clause protects the right to open carry. I know there are people here who don't like the open carry guys like this one, who carry to make a point, but I'd rather have them carrying than having them told they aren't allowed, with no law saying so.
Sec. 9.68. (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.
EDIT2: I listened through the end of the show, and was interested to hear that the hostile officer was reprimanded and an apology offered to Brian. Brian also stated that he would probably say the minimum possible instead of being preachy next time, saying he was flustered after being told to get on his knees and put his hands on his head.
Okay Ohio has always been an open carry State. Legislation was pushed through the Ohio Senate and a veto by then Governor Bob Taft was overturned to allow Conceal Carry in the State of Ohio.
Now we have this movement by - in my opinion a buch of right wing, attention grabbers, no worse than left wing liberals, tryig to put together an "open carry walk" to make the point that open carry is legal in Ohio? DUH! Also the Open Carry walk was blogged at OFCC (Ohioans for Conceal Carry) of all places.
Quite a few people spent a lot of time and effort to get the Conceal Carry laws introduced and passed in the State of Ohio. These laws are being revised annually to permit more area's to travel into with a concealed handgun.
So why jeopordize what we have already achieved and what will come in the future in order to proove an Ohioan has the Right to Open Carry? Get a CCL and throw a shirt over it for goodness sake.
This is from the Buckeye Firearms Association - the incident referred to is an off duty officer stopped a BG after a robbery - The BG had a cigarette lighter that looked like a handgun
If they are reading this - Hey Morons - why don't you spend more of your time trying to get conceal carry legitimized in more areas instead of raising the fears of anti-gun enthusiasts and getting the hairs raised on the back of the necks of the local law enforcement?
This incident is a perfect example of why openly carrying a firearm is not nearly as effective a self-defense or crime deterrent as carrying it concealed (we're Ohioans For Concealed Carry for a reason - if open carry is the best choice, why do police departments advocate concealed carry for their off-duty officers?).
Sure keep it up and the only place we will ever be able to carry a handgun is down our driveways. Or maybe you'll be able to carry it anywhere in the State of Ohio but you better not discharge it.
Last edited by SaltyDog; 06-01-2009 at 08:07 PM.
Reason: Added the little BFA quote
Good points, SaltyDog, but I do have to ask: What's the point of having an open carry law if you expect that law to be revoked when you do open carry? It seems rather superfluous...
Anti Open Carry Worries me
I'm sorry but to exorcise one right to carry is no less important than another. Can't see why wanting to carry open and within the law is a nut-jobs desire while we got on our moral pedestal and say we have the right. I'm not saying demonstration is the way to go but these people want the same thing we do; to be able to protect themselves. If these are nuts then I'm guessing that all of us here that carry concealed are willing to support laws against open carry? And then we also support all the restrictions that have been set in place to get the CCW like having to be OK'd by a sheriff that might not want you to carry so they just say no and that's that. Or the I'm sorry but you owe child support so you can't have a CCW but we will support you but you need to leave it at home.
We are no better than those we cry foul on by picking and choosing the laws we deem correct for living in a civilized society. Isn't the "Few common sense regulations" that we keep hearing about from the government now what we think is wrong?
Again, My post really has nothing to do with these people so I guess I'm high jacking but I keep hearing this type of sentiment and I think it's the same stuff the other side wants to do to us. We just don't agree with them so they call us nut jobs. Sure we don't need these open carry walks or other grand gestures but we also don't need LEO shaking down anyone for acting within their rights. Or next time it will easily be us and by this logic we can't do or say a thing.
I had an incident when pulled over by a traffic officer, where I ended up knowing a little more about that particular traffic law than he did. I think often times LEO enter a situation with the idea that they are right so engrained in them that to hear otherwise, completely throws them off.
I did not get all 'preachy' with him, but once he realized that I was more familiar with it than he.... it was comical to watch him scramble for all kinds of reasons why I wasn't driving properly! I like how the ''suspect", or should I say "victim," responded to the question - why do you think you need to do this? "I don't know that I need to give a reason." When did that officer of the law, become an officer of common sense?! I guess if you're within your legal right to do something, you better ask every cop in your area if they think its a good idea first!
I would never open carry, nor do I think its very smart for anyone else to do so either. This guy is propably doing so because he is a little 'showy' with regards to his firearms, but come on. Its every person's right to be as stupid as they want
What strikes me is the lack of outrage that a couple of police officers are that ignorant of the law and were able to wrongly hold a law abiding citizen on his knees at gunpoint while conducting themselves in a disrespectful manor (or verbally abusing the guy, depending on your sensitivity) with almost no repercussion, other than having to half heartily apologize. If a grocery store bagger performed his job that poorly he would be fired on the spot, yet a police officer (who should be held to a higher standard) gets a slap on the wrist.
Originally Posted by Bishop746
Here's what I see the police officers did wrong:
- They were ignorant of the laws of their state.
- They tried to trump up charges (inciting a riot or something like that) when they didn't know what to do with the guy.
- They addressed a citizen in a disrespectful manor.
- They failed to write an incident report for several days.
The first time got to listen to this it was on my laptop and couldn't hear it well. That's why I wasn't willing to make a statement about what the OPs post.
After listening to it again with the volume up in a pair of headphones IO have to agree with Kev. These cops that state they gave the GD class over and over are nothing short of shameful. Sure they can talk about what could be and what they say the guy was doing but if he was doing it he would have been charged. I don't think I would have done what he did but again it is within his rights. The incident was nothing short of a shakedown. They found out he was able to legally own and carry a weapon their job was done..Simple as that. Allowing that kind of stuff CCW holders should be willing for the same or worse. f you're legally carrying a weapon then you'
re legal. Those LEO said they had complaints but I'll wager they didn't being if they had a door to charging the guy I think they would have being they sure were cussing the man pretty well.
Legal is legal, getting shook down is wrong. Being held by police on a road hands on head getting cussed at and treated like some gang banger for being within his rights I can't stress how wrong that is. No matter if you agree with the law or not.
Kev I'll admit this is pretty rare I'm with ya on this one though.
They propably had to figure out what to put in the report.
Originally Posted by kev74
We need to force acceptance of legal open carry just as much as legal concealed carry. Our rights are our rights not a privelage to be turned on and off by some misinformed patrolman or president.
Thankfully we have enough people open carrying in Arizona that the average citizen accepts it without having a heart attack or screaming for a policeman when they see a gun.
Arizona LEO's seem to be well informed regarding firearm laws also.
remember, not everyone lives in a state like Arizona. If I did such a thing around my area, people would stare with mouths partially agape and figure that I must be some form of LEO or federal agent. Of course, I don't think my tennis shoes and t-shirt would support that idea very well for me, so chances are they would stare and not know what to think.
Originally Posted by TOF
In my opinion, anyone carrying a recording device is looking to cause a stir. It may very well have been his cell phone, but I doubt it. There's a couple of people out there that do this stuff on purpose to get attention, then they cry foul when it doesn't go the way they wanted it to. I had to fast forward thru parts as I was at work, but I just think this guy was out to prove a point. In the old days proving a point usually meant it was done at the point of a sword. He got what he expected, he shouldn't complain.
I'm not condoning the actions of the Police Officers concerning Open Carry. Yes it is legal to open carry and they should know the law (I couldn't remember every law myself) but there are few instances of people actually open carrying a weapon - outside of rural area's in Ohio. Also if they do not know the law then they should have asked for Supervisory assistance rather than making assumptions.
Originally Posted by kg333
We're not in Arizona anymore TOTO! Ohio is a totally different situation - Would people be used to seeing open carry of firearms if they saw more people doing it - NO - They would vote and pass laws to prohibit it as much as possible.
I guess you would have to know the area where he was carrying. Parma OH. While it is probably a good idea to carry a weapon there I don't know that I would advertise it by carrying open.
The point I am trying to make here is that before the conceal carry law, all of the different Counties and municipalities had their own laws concerning firearms. Under the conceal carry law the State mandated that their individual laws were null and void and that they had to follow the State Law so that it would be contiguous in Ohio. Ohio Revised Code 9.68
So why urinate all over the right to conceal carry and what it has afforded us in the State of Ohio by now coming out of the closet with Open Carry?
(A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.
Bingo! He just "happened" to have a recording device that he had the amazing foresight to activate as soon as he encountered the LEO? Please. Every time I hear these "open carry gone bad stories", my meter goes into the red zone.
Originally Posted by zhurdan
TOTO says"Why do you feel you should urinate on either law. Did the storm drop you on your head or something"
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
If you don't start standing up for your rights you wont have any before long.
From the show, which is the only thing we have to base our assumptions on for this incident, the guy stated that he had his iphone in his hands playing music when he was approached by the cops with their guns drawn. It was then that he hit the record button on his phone. It didn't seem to me that he was going out of his way to make an example of himself. He also stated that he had been open carrying for a few years in the same town (but a different neighborhood) without being hassled.
Originally Posted by zhurdan
If Open Carry is legal, what's the issue? It may not be the way anyone here would prefer to carry, but if its legal, than the guy's within his rights and he wasn't harming anyone or causing a disturbance.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Once we start picking and choosing specific methods that should and shouldn't be allowed under the Second Amendment then we're no batter than the gun grabbers.
Last edited by kev74; 06-02-2009 at 10:36 AM.
I personally thought it odd that the only call placed in complaint according to the documents obtained with a FIA (freedom of information act) request was from an officer from that area. If I still lived in Ohio I'd probably want a recording device on me too. I cannot count the times I have had police stop me on foot walking, with no weapon at all on me concealed or not to ask what I was doing. I was even put into a car once for standing at a phone stand...Not a booth,,,A POLE WITH A PUBLIC PHONE ON IT. because the LEO said I was hiding behind it. I was making a call. I was leaning on one shoulder and changed apparently while the LEO was driving by. I had not seen him so I really have no idea. I just got tired and switched sides. I'm not a small man and I can't hide my 5'9", 200 pound rump behind a 6" pole with a pay phone bolted to it. My brother says the jails are all still so over crowded with non violent offenders that you pretty much have to kill someone to stay but they still do things like what we hear in this taped incident. They cussed the man like a black man in Mississippi on the 50's, threatened him with charges that were not warranted, not to mention being held at gun point. All because some LEO called his office about a man with w gun. Now I'm not saying not to stop and check hi out to see if he is allowed to own a weapon but they could have easily just stopped and asked him to surrender his weapon(s) until they knew her was not a felony offender or otherwise hindered from firearm ownership. I really would expect more from people charged with enforcing the laws and especially one that taught classes about the legal carry of firearms (As the one officer cussed about on more than one occasion).
If you don't like a law then work to change it. That's what people did so we could carry both open and concealed. But you can't shake someone down because you don't agree with a law. From the interview with the "offender" he only had the permit to be able to carry in his vehicle because you cannot have a loaded weapon in your vehicle without one. So it makes sense to want to have the permit weather you carry or not being my truck gun would be a felony without that permit if I lived in Ohio.
The thing that worries me about all this he shouldn't do it stuff is that once we start not fighting to keep our rights that are afforded to us not only at the federal level with the Constitution but in this case the ORC we are allowing some ones rights to be infringed. And the next time it could be any one of us and by the logic I'm seeing here that's OK? what if any of you were pulled over but a flaming liberal police officer? He/She don't want any civilian to have a weapon. So they pull you out of the vehicle and toss you against a patrol car and start screaming and cussing and carrying on like they have the cameras of COPS on them meanwhile you say there is a permit to carry in your wallet. They don't care they say what the hell does anyone not trained formally like police are needing a weapon for. It's just stupid they say. You try in a calm even tone saying that you have this permit and it is well within your rights according to state and federal law but they don't like the idea of a civilian telling them how they need to do their job and now they want to drag you in for resisting. All you did was not come to a complete stop and not you're at gun point because you offered your drivers license along with your carry permit because you want to cooperate with police. You're not a criminal, you want to do the right thing. But to this officer you're just another wanna be Clint Eastwood because now they find out that you not only have a pistol but an extra mag and maybe even a BUG stashed away in an ankle rig(like many here talk about having). "What do you need two guns for?!?!?!?!?!" your are told "you're just making it harder on me!". And you all know this has happened. You might have even spoke out against such closed mindedness saying you have the right but this liberal sheriff or that politician says you don't need it so what have it? That's what LEO are for.
Because you have the right. you have followed the law and you want to be able to protect yourself. Just like that guy did. He had a carry weapon and a BUG. t be no different than you stopping to tie your shoe in a parking lot on the way to your car and someone sees the OWB rig on you or the ankle holster. You followed the rules but so what. Who needs a Sig Sauer, two mags and a 38 on their ankle? Me if I choose to! Because it's my right as an American. I have broken no laws. Why are you harassing me?
And just so you all know..There is a law on the books here in my Ol' Kentucky home that states In Kentucky you need a license to walk around nude on your property.
• In Lexington, Kentucky, it's illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your pocket. Link
I like this one too
Lexington: By law, anyone who has been drinking is "sober" until he or she "cannot hold onto the ground."
That's about how I felt when I was at the phone thing. You would have thought I was planning some bank job or something. The guy is asking me for ID and saying I was hiding from him and I asked how? It's not even a booth!!?! I am taller than the stand is!! I was young then and had long hair but dang! It was just one of those poles with a phone bolted to it. WE didn't have cell phones back then..It was the 80's! I wasn't strong enough to carry one of those huge things with a car battery to power it
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