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  1. #26
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    Steve you makes some fantastic points, its sad how we take the instruments of destruction are considered the more serious problem then the emotional health of the people we deem "crazy" (which in my opinion is an oversimplication and slightly dismissive) its much easier to deem people crazy then to crack the surface of why these things happen in our culture.

    Personally I don't care too much about the whys (although I find it unsettling that the media hasn't really tried to ponder the question why would someone do this, though there may be no explanation its worth looking into), I get more angry about the ways we can prevent this kind of stuff.

    And additionally, these line of shootings (Colorado, Oregon, Conn.) have been having are very... well... convientantly timely. Its worth mentioning that the government has no history of giving people LSD and other psycotic drugs in experimental settings working with mind control and/ or fabricating events. This has never happened in the history of the United States. So its just a coincidence that these 3 shootings have happened very close to each other and have no explanation other then the person was crazy.

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  3. #27
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    I sent this out this morning to people on my email contacts list. It is relevant here, too.


    The shooting in Connecticut yesterday was a horrific and tragic event and I am sure no one on this list would say otherwise. Several days ago on another website, actually close to a week ago, someone made the comment that the number of incidences such as this were the same in past years as we have been seeing in current ones. Well that is just not true. There are far more of them now than what we saw, say, 40 to 60 years ago. In those times, a mass shooting was uncommon and just not something that occurred much... in fact they were rare. So what has changed? How have we gotten to the point in our history that we are seeing these events more and more?

    Firstly, I should get something out of the way up front with this. It's not the easy availability of firearms. Frankly they were more readily available back in those times then they are now. You could buy them in hardware stores, gas stations, mom and pop what-not stores, and a host of other places. There was no instant check, no federal 4473 forms to fill out with their state equivalents, and no waiting periods. Even Montgomery Wards sold them. And you could buy them through mail order from a host of sources. So what has happened? What factors have been introduced in the interim that have resulted in what we are seeing today?

    It is the general breakdown of our society. Starting quietly but in earnest in the early 50's and proceeding with acceleration into and through the 60's, we began to see moves to alter our nation into something else, something other than its orginal design. Our traditions, our culture, our heritage, our institutions, and our history came under heavy fire. Radical elements worked diligently to undermine these historic glues of our society to unravel them and put other controls in their place. As each generation was born, we moved further away from the previous generation's attempts to pass on that which was passed on to it. For some things, this was good... for others, not so good.

    Natural controls are always better than artificial ones and when you remove natural controls, the wolf is at the door since artificial controls are rarely supported by the people. We have seen a degradation of our national character, our national soul if you will, to a point where we are in real danger of destroying ourselves. This is not an indictment of a specific political party since both are guilty of sleeping at their post. And I will not get into a discussion of liberal versus conservative positions here. But I have seen this all take place in my lifetime and have been witness to its concerted beginnings and what we have now.

    Friends, we are in a mess in this country. And it's not going to get any better any time soon. Some are calling for more and stricter firearms control but that's not going to do a damned thing. It's nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to a serious problem and these problems will continue regardless of how much control we may place on firearms. The very folks who are screaming the loudest for these controls are the same sort of people who brought us to this point in the first place. And now they're asking, they're demanding we give up more of our rights to correct the problems and the mess they have created.

    I'm afraid we have gone too far and unfortunately, at this point we can't turn back because that wolf in no longer at the door; he's in our house. It is going to get worse and I hate to say that. Perhaps by getting worse, things will flesh out and the people will wake up and see what has been lost. But I doubt it.

    So please pray for the parents and families who lost loved ones in yesterday's tragedy. Pray that we can turn this ship around and seek the light before darkness envelops us completely. And pray for our nation as you never prayed before.

    I love my friends on this list and wish nothing but the best for all of you. May you all have a Merry Christmas and give thought to what Christmas is really about. Hold your children a little longer, if you have them. Call a friend or stop by and just talk to them. Embrace your family.

    God bless you all.

  4. #28
    rex
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    I didn't even read 3 scattered posts.This is nothing new,when political turmoil happens the activists try to become martyrs or the nutjobs show their face.Can you be surprized in today's world?Kids don't go out and play,they sit on electronic games,it takes both parents to provide (if there is 2),and the schools taught them years ago to call the cops or HRS if you spank them.Timeouts work very young,then a belt on your ass wakes up the brain.Welcome to the New World Disorder our previous and current-2nd term?-POS has turned this country into in the quest for an impossible utopia.

    Cut the friggin power grid in the world and step back 2 centuries,those that perish leave more knowledge and food to the survivors to learn from history,which obviously nobody "in power" that matters can comprehend now.People that have babies now are idiots in my opinion,between the pending diseases,the current famine,the world's political shape and economy,who TF would want to put someone through that?Actually I should say spit out multiple kids,one (or two) well taught child is better than a few that have partially caused some of these problems,or are multiplying to drain the system even worse.The entitlement generation isn't BS.

  5. #29
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    We are very sad here about the shootings. My children are afraid to go to school Monday.My wife is afraid to send them to school. I can not imagine how the families are dealing with such a loss. I can not imagine the pains of the victims families.
    My wife understands more my need to carry and possess a firearm on my person and having it always readily available at home .I do not let my children know I carry.
    I consider the act in newton a domestic terorrist event. Gun control, is not the issue. Gun Placement should be the issue. Where do we need guns for immediate protection and prevention should be the issue. IMO

  6. #30
    jm38 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeleinen1 View Post
    Not badly stated dhonda02, and I do understand what you are saying. It is sad how we have become the minority that i agree with you on and yes the teachers would most likely be against carry but

    My main point is that I believe in America still. We have many problems now, and just because there are so many ignorant and naive citizens doesn't mean I still wont do anything to preserve the rights we have, bc honestly, everyday they are less and less. Just like common sense is going away. I can't give up on this. I don't just write about it on forums, I am active outside of online too and thats something that people these days don't do. 99% of people post useless opinions on facebook and call it a day never changing themselves

    Happy holidays buddy...
    I carry concealed everyday, in my house, on my property, in public, where ever I go so goes my weapon.
    My wife is a retired school teacher, would never object to my carrying but would never own a gun or use a gun to protect her classroom....Its just the liberal mentality that is pounded into their mindsets through all those years in education.
    So good luck in arming the teachers.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    I hate to bring this up but what if someone would have had a gun; things would have been different! They need to get over this “gun free zone” crap and realize it’s not working. Every mass shooting has happened in a gun free zone.

    If the principal would have had a gun or even armed teacher things could have been different no one wants to turn tragedy into a political argument but we see that is exactly what is going to happen. They are going bury our rights and we are going to have to crawl out of the hole once again. .What’s amazing is the smartest people are the most naive that they think that eliminating guns will make everyone safer but here we are; another gun free zone under attack
    ita simple if you ban guns then the criminals are the only ones with them. Canada tried it and crme rate doubled over night. Doesnt seem to to be working to me, but who am I. I still see commercail jets in the sky since911, why not ake them away.That was alot worse than any fool with a gun and a bad brain. stupid people is the problem.

  8. #32
    maxhall1023 is offline Junior Member
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    I don't think there is a conspiracy issue at play here with this most recent shooting. Being only 30 with more FB friends than anyone would ever need its funny to read everyone's opinion on the problem. Just another example of how polarized America has become. It ranges from people saying gun's aren't the problem and if someone was carrying maybe this tragedy wouldn't have been so devastating to the response of all guns are evil and are only made to kill other human beings. Personally I think the biggest issue is the Media. Whenever this happens the only thing on the news is detailed coverage into the assailants psyche and possible motivations. This immortalizes these pieces of shit and makes these sad little psycho's who might just kill themselves decide to try and one up the guy with current mass murder record. Stop giving these sicko's so much publicity and focus on the victims. Mention their names and that is it. I also believe it's the degradation of our society in general and our weak ass justice system that is making these shootings more common-place. Why we treat criminals with kid gloves is beyond me. Put a bullet in their head, after due process of course, none of this resort style prison systems. Also identifying these deranged individuals early and being able to get them the help they need even if its against their will.

    I live in MA which really sucks when it comes to guns and I don't really get the ban of >10 clip magazines. If you're proficient at changing magazines/ have multiple guns is it really going to make a difference with the amount of carnage one person can inflict?

  9. #33
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxhall1023 View Post
    ...[I]dentifying these deranged individuals early and being able to get them the help they need even if its against their will...
    Sorry: This is not permitted, in our Progressive, equality-of-outcome-driven society.
    Yeah, truly, it is against the law!

    The insane can be involuntarily committed, but only after they've done something seriously antisocial, for instance killing 20 children and six adults in an elementary school.
    Otherwise, the insane must self-commit of they feel that they need help.
    That is, our society expects the insane to behave rationally, and to ask for help.

    Riddle me that one, Batman.

  10. #34
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    I strongly suggest that you read this: The Anarchist Soccer Mom: Thinking the Unthinkable

    The mother of another "Adam," an Asperger's patient who turns violent when frustrated or thwarted, here details her trials and tribulations, and also discusses society's incredible inability to offer any help at all.

  11. #35
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    This whole thing has me speechless. I can only imagine the pain that the parents of these children must feel.

  12. #36
    codeye is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeleinen1 View Post
    Not badly stated dhonda02, and I do understand what you are saying. It is sad how we have become the minority that i agree with you on and yes the teachers would most likely be against carry but

    My main point is that I believe in America still. We have many problems now, and just because there are so many ignorant and naive citizens doesn't mean I still wont do anything to preserve the rights we have, bc honestly, everyday they are less and less. Just like common sense is going away. I can't give up on this. I don't just write about it on forums, I am active outside of online too and thats something that people these days don't do. 99% of people post useless opinions on facebook and call it a day never changing themselves

    Happy holidays buddy...
    You are right about that. The only groupof people left in this country that will join up to get something done is really the gays or whatever they go by nowand they learnt that from the black community which is now too lazy and selfish to give a damn. So why cant we forget all the crap and pull together as one and clean out some politicans and the crap job they have done for us. I mean its like we dont care and just live with it.Happy and safe holidays to all

  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I've posted the following on another forum, but I believe that it fits in here as well:

    Crazy people remain crazy, or get crazier, in a permissive Progressive society that believes it is wrong to incarcerate them against their will—as if the insane were able to make such a reasoned choice.
    And then, when uncontrolled crazy people do crazy, harmful things, the permissive Progressive society tells them that they bear no responsibility for having done those crazy, harmful things. No penalties and no restrictions are applied.
    The result of this insane Political Correctness on the part of the permissive Progressive society is that insane people are not identified, and are neither observed nor restricted. Thus they are free to do all of the harm that their personal demons require of them.

    And, since he behaved true to form, thus I have defined the Connecticut child-killer.

    But that's OK: It was the gun's fault. After all, crazy people are never responsible for their own actions, Q.E.D.
    Steve, you hit the nail on the head as usual. This is a major ground roots problem with society as opposed to gun restrictions and confiscation issues. We need to look at the current core condition of our society in the U.S.. Placing a weapons (ban)-aid on a cancerous growth does nothing to treat the cancer(unlike what Feinstein and her ilk would leave you to believe).. Ban so called assault weapons, (I refer to mine as defense weapons thank-you) and you relegate law abiding citizens to major restrictions thus you have the slippery slope in which our forefathers forewarned and loathed. Contrary to popular belief, owning defense weapons is a last resort to a defense against a tyrannical government. If you don't believe me do a search of Thomas Jefferson and the majority of our framers of the Constitution. Nuts and the truly sick who commit heinous acts serve to punish the great majority(perhaps at least 60 million with restriction in which had no part). I just sent 85.00 to the NRA because they truly are the only ones in a position to fight to protect our rights, but it isn't looking good.
    Last edited by denner; 12-17-2012 at 01:19 AM.

  14. #38
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    Killing people is a moral problem not a societal problem. There are few people who want to talk about morality these days. It’s no wonder that there are no longer any moral taboos. What was considered immoral 40 years ago is being made formally legal today by voters, legislators, and our courts. I believe there is a relationship between “defining deviancy down” and an increase in the disregard for other people. An uptick in ‘Moral Misfits‘ is the result.

    The usual suspects are out in force calling for additional gun-control measures. School children are most vulnerable to gun violence. They can’t defend themselves, and neither can the teachers. Schools are “Gun Free Zones,” but only for the law abiding. Criminals don’t care about gun laws; that’s why they’re criminals.

    Thieves don’t care about laws against theft, and rapists don’t care about laws against rape. The same is true about drinking and driving. We’ve just had a high profile drunk driving arrest. “Dallas Cowboys nose tackle Josh Price-Brent was arrested early Saturday morning [December 8, 2012] on intoxication manslaughter charges involving a car accident that killed teammate Jerry Brown.”

    Laws won’t stop people intent on doing harm.

    So what do the law-abiding citizens do? They arm themselves just like they would in war. There are terror insurgents in the United States hell-bent on destroying others. That’s a fact.

    Just the other day a young woman was murdered when she told three teenage thugs to “get a job.”

    More people are killed in the United States through violent means than are killed in our current foreign wars. In March of this year, violence in Chicago had left 52 people dead – more than twice as many as died in the March of 2011. There were 39 Coalition Military Fatalities in Afghanistan during the same month.

    Schools should immediately develop a program where every teacher is trained in how to handle a firearm. All teachers must comply to get hired. If Israel can do it, why not America? Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America wrote the following in 2008: “In the mid-seventies, a terrorist attacked an Israeli school bus, murdering over 30 children. . . . A majority of Israelis . . . found a compelling reason for putting guns in schools — terrorists would get guns whether Jews were armed or not. As a result, schools in border areas, and school buses, were manned with gun-toting teachers or others assigned to be at the ready.”

    Signs should be posted around the school that read:

    “The teachers and administrators of this school are armed and trained in deadly force. Anybody attempting to enter the school intending to do harm will be shot on sight.”

    Instead, if a student draws what looks like a gun, he’ll be suspended for ten days.

    And what should we do with those who are involved in a murder spree? They should be executed. The man who shot and killed a number of people at Gabrielle Gifford’s campaign rally and the man who killed the people in the movie theater are still alive.

    There is no doubt that these men killed these people. Their mental state, either before or after the shootings, is irrelevant. They should be dead by now.

    We need some public executions to send a message.

    Let’s stop blaming law-abiding citizens and go after the criminals.

  15. #39
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prevost View Post
    Killing people is a moral problem not a societal problem. There are few people who want to talk about morality these days. It’s no wonder that there are no longer any moral taboos. What was considered immoral 40 years ago is being made formally legal today by voters, legislators, and our courts. I believe there is a relationship between “defining deviancy down” and an increase in the disregard for other people. An uptick in ‘Moral Misfits‘ is the result.

    The usual suspects are out in force calling for additional gun-control measures. School children are most vulnerable to gun violence. They can’t defend themselves, and neither can the teachers. Schools are “Gun Free Zones,” but only for the law abiding. Criminals don’t care about gun laws; that’s why they’re criminals.

    Thieves don’t care about laws against theft, and rapists don’t care about laws against rape. The same is true about drinking and driving. We’ve just had a high profile drunk driving arrest. “Dallas Cowboys nose tackle Josh Price-Brent was arrested early Saturday morning [December 8, 2012] on intoxication manslaughter charges involving a car accident that killed teammate Jerry Brown.”

    Laws won’t stop people intent on doing harm.

    So what do the law-abiding citizens do? They arm themselves just like they would in war. There are terror insurgents in the United States hell-bent on destroying others. That’s a fact.

    Just the other day a young woman was murdered when she told three teenage thugs to “get a job.”

    More people are killed in the United States through violent means than are killed in our current foreign wars. In March of this year, violence in Chicago had left 52 people dead – more than twice as many as died in the March of 2011. There were 39 Coalition Military Fatalities in Afghanistan during the same month.

    Schools should immediately develop a program where every teacher is trained in how to handle a firearm. All teachers must comply to get hired. If Israel can do it, why not America? Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America wrote the following in 2008: “In the mid-seventies, a terrorist attacked an Israeli school bus, murdering over 30 children. . . . A majority of Israelis . . . found a compelling reason for putting guns in schools — terrorists would get guns whether Jews were armed or not. As a result, schools in border areas, and school buses, were manned with gun-toting teachers or others assigned to be at the ready.”

    Signs should be posted around the school that read:

    “The teachers and administrators of this school are armed and trained in deadly force. Anybody attempting to enter the school intending to do harm will be shot on sight.”

    Instead, if a student draws what looks like a gun, he’ll be suspended for ten days.

    And what should we do with those who are involved in a murder spree? They should be executed. The man who shot and killed a number of people at Gabrielle Gifford’s campaign rally and the man who killed the people in the movie theater are still alive.

    There is no doubt that these men killed these people. Their mental state, either before or after the shootings, is irrelevant. They should be dead by now.


    We need some public executions to send a message.

    Let’s stop blaming law-abiding citizens and go after the criminals.
    Can't do this. They do have a right to a trial as stated in the Bill of Rights. Where we err with this one is failing to carry out the death penalty in so many cases.

    You are spot in in your post. This is all by design and a deliberate action on the part of those who would see this nation turned into something completely foreign to its original design. Remove the pieces that hold a people together and this is what you get.

  16. #40
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    we have a right to bear arms also, and that may change completely, But I understand, Also I am not smart enough to write that post above, just pasted it from a great friend, as an interesting article, with which I agree mostly,

  17. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheReaper View Post
    This whole thing has me speechless. I can only imagine the pain that the parents of these children must feel.
    Sad day indeed. At this point who cares about the political side of things. It will come out and we can fight then. The children and parents should have our prayers.

  18. #42
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    America is Egypt: The Land of Denial
    Note that the author of this essay denies that autism is an illness, and that autistics can be uncontrollably violent, while, in the very same essay, she describes the actions of an uncontrollable and very violent autistic child.

    (Excerpted from an op-ed essay in The New York Times)

    Don’t Blame Autism for Newtown
    By Priscilla Gilman
    (Published: December 17, 2012)

    ...Asperger’s and autism are not forms of mental illness; they are neurodevelopmental disorders or disabilities.

    ...While autistic children can sometimes be aggressive, this is usually because of their frustration at being unable to express themselves verbally, or their extreme sensory sensitivities...

    We should encourage greater compassion for all parents facing an extreme challenge, whether they have children with autism or mental illness or have lost their children to acts of horrific violence (and that includes the parents of killers).

    Consider this, posted on Facebook yesterday by a friend of mine from high school who has an 8-year-old, nonverbal child with severe autism:

    “Today Timmy was having a first class melt down in Barnes and Nobles and he rarely melts down like this. He was throwing his boots, rolling on the floor, screaming and sobbing. Everyone was staring as I tried to pick him up and [his brother Xander] scrambled to pick up his boots. I was worried people were looking at him and wondering if he would be a killer when he grows up because people on the news keep saying this Adam Lanza might have some spectrum diagnosis...My son is the kindest soul you could ever meet. Yesterday, a stranger looked at Timmy and said he could see in my son’s eyes and smile that he was a kind soul; I am thankful that he saw that”...

    (Priscilla Gilman is the author of “The Anti-Romantic Child: A Memoir of Unexpected Joy.”)

  19. #43
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    They just make things up to support their positions. You can't reason with stupid. The most distressing thing to me is that without fair representation in the media we are screwed. It's two against one. They don't really want to spend the time to solve this, they just want a quick fix. This country has lost the ability to have constructive conversations with differing views. It will ot change untill a lot of people wake up.

  20. #44
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    [QUOTE=Ala Tom;277144]One of the anchors on TV said there are no background checks on 40% of guns sold on Internet. I posted a note on Huffington post questioning that. I described how it works for most purchases where the gun is shipped to a licensed dealer who notifies the local sheriff for a background check and then sells you the gun across the counter so there is little difference between buying in a store and buying from an on-line source. Boy did the anti-gun crowd come after me. They called me a liar, a fraud and a few other things. Boy if that crowd ever gets their hands on guns, look out. They're a bunch of nasty rascals. There is a lot of mis-information out there and they don't want anyone to correct them!

    They just make things up to support their positions. You can't reason with stupid. The most distressing thing to me is that without fair representation in the media we are screwed. It's two against one. They don't really want to spend the time to solve this, they just want a quick fix. This country has lost the ability to have constructive conversations with differing views. It will ot change untill a lot of people wake up.

  21. #45
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    My wife was a teacher's aide in Va where we live. She said you can get into the office from the street, but you have to be let into the school... So how is it he can walk into a Conneticut school after this has happened so many times and get to those kids? Can't they build a secure school?

  22. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigShooter599 View Post
    ...Can't they build a secure school?
    No, "they" can't.
    Nobody can.
    There's no such thing as a "secure" anything.

    Personal security—even the security of your kids in school—is your own responsibility, and nobody else's.
    The only way to be truly secure is to abdicate all responsibility to some authority, so that, when something bad happens, you can point to that authority and say, "It's all their fault."
    (And, by the way, that seems to be where this country is headed.)

    If you abdicate your responsibility to some authority, you will also be abdicating your liberty along with it. You will be relying upon someone else, to make you and your family "safe and secure." It will then be up to that authority to decide how much liberty should be allowed to you. After all, if you have too much liberty, you might pass beyond the reach of the securing authority.

    Liberty, and the freedom to exercise it, belongs only to the personally responsible.
    So don't ask, "Can't they build a secure school." Instead, volunteer to make your children's school more safe and secure. Lobby your legislators. Make demands upon your school board. Put in some personal security-guard time.

  23. #47
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    No, "they" can't.
    Nobody can.
    There's no such thing as a "secure" anything.
    ^ fantastic point. Security is an illusion. Live in the real world people.

    But my idea of a secure area is one with guns everywhere. Thats a polite society.

  24. #48
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    When I first heard of this, my thought was "don't they have security guards at schools" ... I wonder that every time. We know that a person with a gun can show up and do this, and we do nothing to stop it? When you know you might face a man with a gun, shouldn't it be obvious that what you need is a man with a gun on your side?

  25. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
    When I first heard of this, my thought was "don't they have security guards at schools"[?]...
    Who is this "they" of whom you write?

    Being emphatic, but entirely ungrammatical: You is the "they."

    If your local school needs a security guard, why not volunteer?

  26. #50
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    A security guard??? You gotta be kidding..


    We have secuirty guards around here, they do not carry weapons and are jokes.

    Now don't get me wrong Im not knocking these guys, inevitably i may have to go into that business to be considered for an LEO officier, but a security guard has never been the solution to any problem ever.

    Neither will I mention would having a police in every school be a valid option. They would be too concerned with red tape and ticketing people rather then defending children and the people who pay their pension.

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