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  1. #21
    usmcj's Avatar
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    I wouldn't choose to carry or defend myself with a BB gun, unless that's all I had access to.... the "best" anything is simply a matter of opinion, and every opinion doesn't translate into fact.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1mp13m4n View Post
    I do not want to fall into the trap of being bias. My cousin is a 1911 fan and a 45acp fan, so talking to him about a handgun I get the bigger is better response. I like the 1911, I really do but the gun is big and heavy. There are those who will say that a gun should be comforting not comfortable. I disagree, I think you can have both. I am not trying to buy special clothes to conceal my gun or so called specialized belts, etc. LOL I tried his XD in 45acp and that gun with a loaded mag in it is very heavy. Talking to my step dad, uncle, and cousin....they all think the .380 or 9mm is a girly round. I am not interested in advice like that from them. LOL I would much rather shoot a 9mm well than maybe hit an attacker with a 45.
    Good for you. You are recognizing bias and trying to maintain an open mind in your quest. I commend you for this and no, I am certainly not patronizing you. Most folks who have been at this game for some time will tell you to use what works best for you. This includes your willingness and ability to carry for extended periods of time, being confident you can deliver rounds to target, and enjoying a measure of comfort to boot. Once you have narrowed down your choice in a sidearm and a caliber, the next step is to train diligently with your firearm. Take your time, learn your gun and you as a package, and hone your skills with it. This will not only greatly improve your abilities but will also give you the confidence you will both want and need should you ever have to use it in your defense.

  3. #23
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    If that is the conclusion you have reached (for now), I agree.

    The 9mm is adequate if fired accurately...the same criteria that makes a .40 S&W or .45 ACP adequate. Attackers have been stopped with almost every caliber/chambering, but by the same token, attackers have also continued their attacks after multiple hits from almost every caliber/chambering, including .44 magnums. You have to hit something vital, regardless, and maybe multiple times. A .22 can be used in a pinch, but rimfire ammo generally has a higher failure rate, and you must hit something vital to stop a determined attacker before he can get to you...not easy with any handgun, especially when you are probably shaking like a dog crapping peach seeds.

    Having said all that, I prefer a single-stack, striker fired .45ACP. I started with .45, switched to a .38 Special revolver, four different 9mm's, then a .380, and finally a .40 S&W...before finally coming full circle back to the .45 ACP. The point here is that our confidence levels and threat level evaluations change all the time. Carrying a lethal weapon is a big decision for the average person, and most people second guess themselves continuously. Find something you can shoot that falls into a power range that the general consensus approves of, and get to work becoming proficient with it. You can always change it.
    You've traveling a similar path I did. Starting in the fall of 2011, I began in earnest evaluating some of my carry guns in an effort to make sure I was current and to see what worked best for me. I wound up going full circle as well, though I also managed to keep one in strong reserve because I shoot it very well. I view this as a good thing because not only firearms and their accessories change, but so do we. I have learned a heck of a lot over the past 14 months while doing this and it has all been good.

  4. #24
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post
    I wouldn't choose to carry or defend myself with a BB gun, unless that's all I had access to.... the "best" anything is simply a matter of opinion, and every opinion doesn't translate into fact.
    Yeah, neither would I. We all have our own personal preferences and that's really how it should be. In the end, it still boils down to what works best for the individual. And while he might make some mistakes, if he's open to learning and acquiring new information, those mistakes can and probably will be addressed.

  5. #25
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    As a general rule of thumb, a high velocity expanding handgun bullet is not going to penetrate as far into the body cavity as a slower bullet of the same design.
    Am I reading this right? A fast hollow point will penetrate less than a slow hollow point?


    .357 SIG Underwood 125 gr Gold Dot Ammo Test (SIM-TEST) - YouTube

    My personal favorite and carry load. 125 Grain HP @1500 FPS and 15" of penetration in Jello.

  6. #26
    genesis is offline Member
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    When it comes to modern, state-of-the-art, common, self-defense ammo in 9MM, 357 Sig, 40S&W and 45ACP, they all perform about the same because they're all loaded to FBI protocols/standards. One isn't significantly better than any of the others. It isn't the gun or caliber that will save your buns. What counts is your marksmanship/tactical skills and your presence of mind. So don't get all caught up in the caliber thing. A 9MM would serve you very well and there is a plethora of models from many, many fine manufactures to choose from. You should get whatever caliber you can shoot reasonable well, and can afford to shoot A LOT. I'm not condoning a 22 for self defense, but a couple of hits with a 22 is better than a bunch of misses with a 45. You really need to shoot these various calibers to find out what your comfortable with. It will probably be the 9MM. It wouldn't hurt to get a 22 as your first gun. They're great to learn on and ammo is cheap, so you'll practice more. And that's the key, practice. If you get a 22 now, just plan on getting something more appropriate later for self defense.

    Don <><

    Click this link, then watch the second video below. FAQ 44 ( What caliber should I get?) - YouTube


  7. #27
    s1mp13m4n is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for that video. That pretty much said what I was thinking and lines up with some articles I have been reading. In a nutshell it does not matter if you carry a 9mm or a 45acp.....what matters is being able to shoot well and shot placement as all modern ammo is designed to do its job.

  8. #28
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s1mp13m4n View Post
    ...In a nutshell it does not matter if you carry a 9mm or a 45acp.....what matters is being able to shoot well and shot placement as all modern ammo is designed to do its job. [emphasis added]
    Bingo!

    ...Just not a .22 rimfire, unless you're at bad-breath distance.

  9. #29
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
    Am I reading this right? A fast hollow point will penetrate less than a slow hollow point?


    .357 SIG Underwood 125 gr Gold Dot Ammo Test (SIM-TEST) - YouTube

    My personal favorite and carry load. 125 Grain HP @1500 FPS and 15" of penetration in Jello.
    It is a general statement. Your .357 Sig is driving that 125gr bullet quite a bit faster than, say, a Winchester Ranger 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA). And jello is not ballistic gelatine, unless that is what you meant by "jello". Anyway, what happens to a higher velocity expanding bullet when it hits gelatine is that the media is compressed in front of the bullet. This works in concert with the bullet whose speed is already causing rapid expansion. As a greater diameter is presented by the bullet to the media resistance to is travel is greatly increased, resulting in reduced penetration.

    Now bullets designed with greater levels of controlled expansion and with bonded cores will resist the tendency to expand too quickly and this will allow deeper penetration because this works in tandem with the higher velocity. There are too many variables to consider when talking about this subject. Clothing, things in pockets, the makeup of the target (muscle, fat, size, etc.). I once shot a deer with a .357 Magnum handload (160gr Norma JHP, 16 grains of 2400, CCI primer) and the bullet performed flawlessly. I never found the exit point or the bullet, but it hit a rib going in and torn up the top of the heart. I probably traveled 16 to 18 inches but I cannot say for sure. That load bullet was traveling close to 1600 fps muzzle velocity.

    Comparing a .357 Sig to a 9mm is not a good comparison for several reasons. Bullet design is almost certain to be different for the Sig load. More controlled expansion, which means a different hollow cavity profile, to allow the bullet to drive deeper into the target is going to be the target. The .357 Sig is a fine caliber for self defense and even takes the 9mm bullet it uses a step further to allow for hunting some game.

    Here's an interesting video link. Granted the load used only had an advertised MV of 1350 fps, but it is still a very good video from a very good source well known in the current shooting culture.

    .357 SIG Speer Gold Dot Ammo Test - YouTube


    Hope this all helps and answers your concerns.

  10. #30
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genesis View Post
    When it comes to modern, state-of-the-art, common, self-defense ammo in 9MM, 357 Sig, 40S&W and 45ACP, they all perform about the same because they're all loaded to FBI protocols/standards. One isn't significantly better than any of the others. It isn't the gun or caliber that will save your buns. What counts is your marksmanship/tactical skills and your presence of mind. So don't get all caught up in the caliber thing. A 9MM would serve you very well and there is a plethora of models from many, many fine manufactures to choose from. You should get whatever caliber you can shoot reasonable well, and can afford to shoot A LOT. I'm not condoning a 22 for self defense, but a couple of hits with a 22 is better than a bunch of misses with a 45. You really need to shoot these various calibers to find out what your comfortable with. It will probably be the 9MM. It wouldn't hurt to get a 22 as your first gun. They're great to learn on and ammo is cheap, so you'll practice more. And that's the key, practice. If you get a 22 now, just plan on getting something more appropriate later for self defense.

    Don <><

    Click this link, then watch the second video below. FAQ 44 ( What caliber should I get?) - YouTube

    I know several men who will strongly disagree with this (the 9mm vs .45ACP argument). They have some standing because they both have seen many shootings (in the hundreds) and have very definitely opinions about what works well and what doesn't.

    However, I tend to agree with you in this post. My take is simple. Some folks, try as they may, just cannot seem to master a .45ACP or a .40S&W but do just fine with a 9mm. For them, that is the caliber they should train with and carry. It all comes down to something I and others on this thread have pushed already. Use what works best for you. For some folks, it could be several different calibers (I'm in that category) and the have the luxury of choosing what they perceived to be the best for a given or specific instance. But still, it IS what works best for the individual.

  11. #31
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Here's another link to a video I watched about a half a year ago. Very interesting.

    9mm vs .45 vs Rifle A Dr&#39;s View of Gunshot Wounds - YouTube

  12. #32
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    Southernboy,

    We are singing the same tune generally. That is why I settled on what I did until something SIGNIFICANTLY better comes out. Yes, I am a trained marksman, shooter. I have been shooting for better than 40 years and over 30 years of LEO/competition training and shooting. The last 23 years with the US Border Patrol, look up the USBP and see if there are any shooters there.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

    That being said, if you cannot hit your target you are doing no good, and probably doing harm because you do know where your bullets are going. When involved in a life or death struggle there are many things to overcome. What I am after is to hit the BG hard enough that I "change his Channel" from trying to hurt me to getting out of dodge. I have seen that phenomenon with the 357 magnum and the 115 +P+ 9mm. The BG all of a sudden is like "get me to the hospital NOW!" or DRT. That comes down to carry enough gun. We are all different with different levels of skill. Carry the biggest gun you can conceal and shoot well.

    Personally I carry what I call fighting guns, I get that definition from my standard question (If I get into a (gun)fight, is this the gun I want to have with me?). In revolver days it was a S&W L frame or K frame 357 magnum loaded with 145 grn STHP's. Today it is a Glock 357 Sig loaded as I described in my earlier post. A revolver is still a relevant tool for civilian CCW and I carried one when walking the canyons at night on the SW border, I did feel better with a semi auto though for that mission and threat environment.

    The whole 9mm, 45ACP argument is as old as dirt, I remember reading articles in the 1970's. As has been written above, there is little difference in service caliber loads. Face it, similar bullets at similar velocities are going to have similar results. Both the 9 and the 45 are at the pinnacle of advancement, if they were all that why would we have +P+ 9mm and 45 +P, super, Rowland? Just like modern hollow points giving you the edge over 40 year old designs, modern cartridges give you an edge, I think that the 40 and the 357 Sig with the best loads will give you an edge, maybe a very small edge but I will take every advantage I can get. I am not a fan of subsonic loads unless I am using a suppressor, you give up too much.

    Bob

  13. #33
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
    Southernboy,

    We are singing the same tune generally. That is why I settled on what I did until something SIGNIFICANTLY better comes out. Yes, I am a trained marksman, shooter. I have been shooting for better than 40 years and over 30 years of LEO/competition training and shooting. The last 23 years with the US Border Patrol, look up the USBP and see if there are any shooters there.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

    That being said, if you cannot hit your target you are doing no good, and probably doing harm because you do know where your bullets are going. When involved in a life or death struggle there are many things to overcome. What I am after is to hit the BG hard enough that I "change his Channel" from trying to hurt me to getting out of dodge. I have seen that phenomenon with the 357 magnum and the 115 +P+ 9mm. The BG all of a sudden is like "get me to the hospital NOW!" or DRT. That comes down to carry enough gun. We are all different with different levels of skill. Carry the biggest gun you can conceal and shoot well.

    Personally I carry what I call fighting guns, I get that definition from my standard question (If I get into a (gun)fight, is this the gun I want to have with me?). In revolver days it was a S&W L frame or K frame 357 magnum loaded with 145 grn STHP's. Today it is a Glock 357 Sig loaded as I described in my earlier post. A revolver is still a relevant tool for civilian CCW and I carried one when walking the canyons at night on the SW border, I did feel better with a semi auto though for that mission and threat environment.

    The whole 9mm, 45ACP argument is as old as dirt, I remember reading articles in the 1970's. As has been written above, there is little difference in service caliber loads. Face it, similar bullets at similar velocities are going to have similar results. Both the 9 and the 45 are at the pinnacle of advancement, if they were all that why would we have +P+ 9mm and 45 +P, super, Rowland? Just like modern hollow points giving you the edge over 40 year old designs, modern cartridges give you an edge, I think that the 40 and the 357 Sig with the best loads will give you an edge, maybe a very small edge but I will take every advantage I can get. I am not a fan of subsonic loads unless I am using a suppressor, you give up too much.

    Bob
    Excellent post and comments. Thanks so much.

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