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  1. #1
    backdrman0 is offline Junior Member
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    storage of fully loaded double stacked magazines

    i must have several hundred magazines for my autos. they're all fully loaded magazines, an stored. my question is, will the springs weaken due to all the magazines being fully loaded? i have probably thirty some diffrent caliber autos, all with atleast 30 to 40 magazines a piece. i like to know they are ready to be picked up an taken should time ever arise. but if storing fully loaded magazines is o good for the springs, well then i need to know. thank you all for your help an friendship.

  2. #2
    kg333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backdrman0 View Post
    my question is, will the springs weaken due to all the magazines being fully loaded?
    Nope. Springs wear due to cycling, not being under load.

    Quote Originally Posted by backdrman0 View Post
    i have probably thirty some diffrent caliber autos, all with atleast 30 to 40 magazines a piece.
    Holy sheeeet, that's a lot of mags! I'm curious, what's your reasoning for so many?

    KG

  3. #3
    rex
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    KG is right,but that means they are good springs to begin with.Unless a bad run happens,your top name manufacturers are using quality springs so there should be no concern in most instances.

    AR 30rd(at least older ones) and 8rd in 7rd tube 1911 mags depart from this a bit.Both are pushing the limit on the spring fully loaded,hence the old standard of downloading the mag a round or 2.High quality springs shouldn't take an initial set,but some do and it really doesn't matter much as long as it doesn't continue to shorten over time.I use Wolff springs for replacements in just about everything but HKs.Also don't fall into the hype of chrome silicon springs,they aren't better if you ask a metalurgist that works in that field.

  4. #4
    recoilguy's Avatar
    recoilguy is offline Senior Member
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    So far you have reeived the correct information. Normally there is one or two who will say metalurgy is like vodoo science and they had a spring once that got weak from being loaded and all springs get weak being loadeed and scientist are part of a conspiracy to make you buy more springs. The guys who abducted them told them about springs as they were probing them in the mothership.

    Springs are designed to carry a load and weaken with cycling.

    RCG

  5. #5
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    Yes, I am one of those guys who say that magazine springs can weaken from being left loaded - because, I personally have had magazine springs weaken (magazines from more than 1 manufacturer) by leaving mags FULLY loaded for a long period of time... I've had them (the affected magazines) not lock the slide back on an empty mag anymore. At that point, I have to replace them with +10% Wolf magazine springs.

    The comment about this train of thought being nonsense comes from some - saying that they can ONLY wear out from actual usage (up and down movement)... However, they have no information or data to back that up. I will say that my real world experience says otherwise...

    Also, on the Wolff Gunsprings website (the people who do nothing but make springs for guns), they say the following:

    5. How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

    Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

    Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

    More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.
    Now, they should know better than anyone else about magazine springs. That is their comment, and I have personal experience to say that their advice seems to be true.

    Followers have gotten shorter/smaller, to squeeze in an extra round or two (how more modern 9mm doublestacks have gone from 15 rounds to 17 or 18 rounds in a magazine that is essentially the same length). This puts more stress on the spring when the magazine is fully loaded...

    But, discount this information if you wish...

  6. #6
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    As the previous poster said please discount that information. If I were in the business of selling magazines I would word my website very similarily. I would also attempt to train people to believe their real world experiance contridicts science. My attempt might be a little more obvious



    SPRINGS WEAKEN FROM BEARING A LOAD...SPRINGS WEAKEN FROM BEARING A LOAD.......

    but it obviously could barely be any more effective.

    RCG

  7. #7
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    See, but you base that on ZERO data to prove anything. If its true - show it...

    I have had HK mags and Beretta mags and Ruger mags have this happen to them. On multiple occasions too (so, more than just 1 mag of each brand). But, you being the metal expert must know otherwise - because you said so. That's it.

    I've explained real world experience AND comments from a spring manufacturer. You say otherwise, just because... I really have no intention of debate, but I love how people take your stance on forums all the time when this question comes up... Call others full of it, and all because "they say so" with nothing else but their claim that everyone else is nuts...

    Regardless of what Wolf says (which backs up my point of view) - I've seen it personally. So, there is something to it in some cases, no matter what you show me that says the contrary... And, it makes sense. A 7 round 1911 magazine will likely never have such an issue. There is more room between the bottom of the magazine and the bottom of the follower. Hi cap mags over 15 rounds CAN suffer from this. Do they all? No, but some do.

  8. #8
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    I have had this discussion with you before, if not you then the last guy who believes the same folly you do. I have presented the facts and metalurgical specs that explains the way and reactions of spring steel. Only to have it dismissed as silly metalurgy andt that has no place compared to real life, one time, no standard, undocumented, it happened to me and makes sense logic. I will not bother to join the debate you have no intention of having. I will just tell you a fact or two.

    Here are facts:
    There are many aspects of metal that are not understood or realized by those noyt in the steel industry, first and foremost in this discussion you have to understand creep. Creep is the slow flow of a non-ferric metal like copper, brass and lead under force. At temperatures outside of a furnace, steel doesn't have any appreciable creep. Under most conditions, steel flexes and then returns to its original shape. When pushed past its elastic limit, steel will bend and not return to its original shape. All designers of well-made magazines make sure the spring never approaches the elastic limit when the magazine is fully loaded. Honest. This means the spring will not weaken when the magazine is fully loaded -- not even over an extended time. Like 50 years
    The only way to weaken a magazine spring is to flex it past its normal range (elastic limit). Maybe that is what was someones real world experiance I cant say but neither can they. If this is happening, somebody is trying to overload a magazine or has "adjusted" it by bending the spring. or is moving the mags and causing the bullets to roltate or movre in the mag. All of these could cause feed failures. There are many factors that can play into a a loaded magazine and the springs ability to retain uits original shape. However the simple fact that it is loaded sadly is not one of them.

    You can have your real world experiance and words of wisdom from vendors of a product that is actually designed not to fail. Without seeding doubt the product will never really neeed to be replaced. I will let this go now but I will not let you tell people what is not true, is true because you seen it happen. When a ship goes past the horizion it does not fall off the earth even if one you saw never came back. You are arguing against science and this is a proven scuence ASTM A228 is the spec for spring type steel, if you have time to see the charts and understand the spec you will know something other then your bullets sitting perfectly still on the spring over time weakened the spring, you think weakened from being loaded. If you need more you you can not be convinced of facts. Good luck be safe....

    RCG

  9. #9
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    I will let this go now but I will not let you tell people what is not true, is true because you seen it happen.
    That is my exact opinion of your comments as well. It is one of these things that I will say (and have above, essentially) - believe what you want. But, I have gone back to the habit of the 1980s and early 1990s - underload the magazine by 1 round. I have had much less problems with this issue.

    So, once again - I have given specifics, given personal examples, and given quotes from a spring company... But, of course, I am to be ignored because you know better, just because you say so.... Everything I have said is a lie, and I am a crackpot for believing it... Essentially your claim... Whatever....

  10. #10
    denner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Yes, I am one of those guys who say that magazine springs can weaken from being left loaded - because, I personally have had magazine springs weaken (magazines from more than 1 manufacturer) by leaving mags FULLY loaded for a long period of time... I've had them (the affected magazines) not lock the slide back on an empty mag anymore. At that point, I have to replace them with +10% Wolf magazine springs.

    The comment about this train of thought being nonsense comes from some - saying that they can ONLY wear out from actual usage (up and down movement)... However, they have no information or data to back that up. I will say that my real world experience says otherwise...

    Also, on the Wolff Gunsprings website (the people who do nothing but make springs for guns), they say the following:



    Now, they should know better than anyone else about magazine springs. That is their comment, and I have personal experience to say that their advice seems to be true.

    Followers have gotten shorter/smaller, to squeeze in an extra round or two (how more modern 9mm doublestacks have gone from 15 rounds to 17 or 18 rounds in a magazine that is essentially the same length). This puts more stress on the spring when the magazine is fully loaded...

    But, discount this information if you wish...
    I likewise agree w/ Shipwreck and Wolf gunsprings. I do believe leaving magazines fully loaded and/or cycling often does detrimentaly weaken them over time. My experience coincides w/ what Wolf gunsprings is saying and Shipwreck has experienced, granted whether it's a marketing ploy to manufacturer below spec mag springs so they wear out quicker and consumers need to buy more is a question, however, Wolf gunsprings through my experience are some of the best springs out there. I always left my 92FS magazine fully loaded as a car gun, I'd say at least for 2 years. Took it out to shoot it and it malfunctioned which was a shock to me.Never, ever had that happened, I was glad I tested it instead of experiencing that malfunction in a self defense scenario. I know this particular pistol like the back of my hand and always maintained it 100%. I immediately suspected the magazine spring being the culpirit as I believe the spring was weakened to an extent where it didn't get the round up in time for the slide to pick it up. I subsequently replaced the magazine spring w/ a new one and that indeed was the problem, no guess work there. Being that this particular 92FS had never malfunctioned and I didn't believe it to be ammo, extractor, recoil spring or any other issue than the magazine spring formed my opinion. Likewise, I've experienced the same with my SAR-1 a remarkably reliable rifle that I left 30 rounders fully loaded for a year or so and experienced malfunctions on the last 2- 3 rounds in the magazine once again helping to form my opinion. I've heard argument from both sides whereas magazine springs can only weaken by cycling as opposed to being left fully loaded over time.
    Last edited by denner; 07-31-2012 at 08:40 PM.

  11. #11
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    The truth is that springs shorten slightly when they are first loaded, but that slight shortening does not indicate that the shortened spring has been weakened.
    Only repeated flexing (that is, for instance, repeated loading and unloading a magazine) will eventually weaken a spring.

    Every spring "takes a set" when it is first flexed. That's the shortening you will observe. But taking a set is not the equivalent of weakening.
    Only "metal fatigue," the cracking of the molecular bonds of the metal's crystalline lattice, will eventually cause a spring to fail. The metal's crystalline-lattice bonds crack only as the result of repeated flexing. QED.

    I respect the knowledge of the Wolff Springs people, but I also believe that anyone who suggests that the best thing to do would be to underload your magazine by one or two rounds is focussed more on the spring than on its function.
    The function of a 12-round magazine, for instance, is to deliver 12 rounds to your pistol, reliably and without fail. Although the magazine's spring would last longer, were you to load the magazine with only 10 rounds, doing that would defeat the entire purpose of the magazine.
    Load the magazine with the whole 12 rounds, and be aware of potential spring failure from your use. Replace the spring when it starts to misbehave during practice.
    Rotate your magazines, using the more-newly-sprung ones for concealed carry, and relegating older springs to practice shooting until those springs fail.
    Then replace the spring, and perhaps use the magazine for carry purposes again.

    ...But:
    Don't forget that a magazine's feed lips are also springs, also subject to fatigue and failure.
    Be prepared to discard magazine bodies, too, when they show symptoms of fatigue.

  12. #12
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    I have had to replace Beretta mags as soon as 3 months after being loaded to the 15 round max. After 3 or 4 mags of this occurring, I have extra wolff springs on hand. Now, I have the magazines marked that I have replaced the springs in.

    Now, loading those to full seems to not have the negative effect on the springs as it does on the factory springs. The Wolf +10% springs are apparently better than factory springs. But in general, I still do not leave these loaded to the max anymore.

    This is occurring with both 15 round fullsize Beretta mags AND 13 round compact mags. (I have a compact Beretta mag spring I need to replace right now, in fact)

    Also, I have owned several Hk handguns over the years. I have had to replace the magazine spring on EVERY Hk USPc 9mm and Hk USPc 45 magazine I ever owned (guns I previously owned) for reasons stated in previous posts (just like the Beretta mags). I put the +10% springs in there to help eliminate this need again... When you have to start replacing springs in 10-14+ magazines, it gets expensive (and HK mags are expensive to begin with).

    Also had this issue with Ruger magazine springs in the past too.

    Now, it does seem that once I replace the magazine spring with a Wolff magazine spring - the problem has never occurred again. But, this illustrates that FACTORY magazine springs can and due suffer. Wolff must make a better product.

    Now, I no longer top off the magazine in most of my handguns. I load the magazine fully, then chamber a round, and THEN I do not add one more round to the magazine anymore... hence, underloading it by one. The exception is when the magazine is a 10 rounder or less. I do top those off because of the limited capacity... But, I accept that I may have to deal with this issue with those mags...

    Curiously enough, I've never had a problem with magazine springs in a mag that holds 10 rounds or less...

    If it's a magazine with over a 10 round capacity, I now underload it by one. I do rotate my magazines.

    But the original poster specified that he had a LOT of magazines fully loaded. My whole point was that he may want to reconsider that...

  13. #13
    denner's Avatar
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    I do believe that the elements contibute to spring fatigue as well, not only cycling, such as: oxidation, reduction, rust, humidity, etc....as well.

  14. #14
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    I'll only say this ONE MORE TIME....


    If you can't afford to replace a part THAT'S MEANT TO BE REPLACED, then you most likely can't afford to shoot your guns!

    Springs are CONSUMABLE parts. That means that they need to be replace when they no longer work. As Steve pointed out, the magazine is there to feed your pistol, not last forever. Why in the hell would you buy a gun capable of holding XX amount of rounds only to carry it everyday with XX-2 rounds? I hope for their sake that the people who down load their magazines because they don't want to replace a $6 spring never run into a situation where they need those extra two rounds.

    Six frickin' dollars vs. a potentially life saving couple of rounds. You make the call. (what am I wasting time typing this out for? Many folks couldn't get a draw from concealment hit on a low percentage target in under 4 seconds let alone 2. Hell, download your mags by 5. Your springs will outlive you!)

  15. #15
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    So, first - I'm full of it because I can't possibly be right. Now, "springs are consumables."

    Geeze... Once again, the original poster has 30-40 magazines - all loaded (as per his post). he asked a question. According to some, I know not what I say. But, all of a sudden, springs are "consumables." Interesting...

    I've dealt with this same issue by leaving rifle magazines loaded to capacity over a long period of time too. I'm not saying every magazine will suffer from this - but some do and will...

    In closing, I will say that I personally think that leaving a lot of mags fully loaded for a long period of time is a bad idea. If you want to leave a lot of mags loaded, under-loading by 1 CAN and WILL extend the life of your magazine spring (NO WHERE DID I SAW UNDERLOAD BY TWO, I said ONE - and I admitted that I do not do this for 10 or less round magazines).

    Cycling loaded mags also help save the life of a magazine spring (this was advice in like EVERY gun magazine in th e 1990s and 2000s... But, if springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded, why would some of you advocate this as a strategy? If I am wrong, then it would make no sense now, would it?

    "Consumable" talk all you want... If he (the original poster) needs those mags one day - the ones left loaded for extended periods of time... When he's using them is NOT the time to find out that they MIGHT NOT be working because they were left loaded too long. Tell the bad guy to wait while you order some new springs and change them.....

    Am I exaggerating? Well, look at what Denner said... His gun didn't work when he hit the range because of it... But he's lying too, right? And, if Denner needed his gun the night before he went to the range (for self defense purposes)? What then? Well, springs are "consumables" at $6... So, he can tell the attacker to wait a minute while he stops to change mags?

    Yes, I am being sarcastic because of the attitude here... I feel like I have to spell it out 1 letter at a time... I A-M N-O-T S-A-Y-I-N-G T-H-A-T T-H-I-S E-F-F-E-C-T-S E-V-E-R-Y M-A-G-A-Z-I-N-E, but it can effect some.

    This topic is always annoying because the "springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded" guys still have no proof that I am wrong. I just am just "wrong" because they say it's so... I must be so out of it, because what I have seen with my own eyes can't possibly be true. I MUST be lying or making things up or be in denial...... None of that could have possibly happened, because they say so...

    Also, there is always some way they can validly excuse the FAQ info from a GUNSPRING manufacturer, right?

    I'm finished with this thread. Others can take from it what they wish... I am not wrong...

  16. #16
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denner View Post
    I do believe that the elements contibute to spring fatigue as well, not only cycling, such as: oxidation, reduction, rust, humidity, etc....as well.
    Yes. Of course.
    But cycling contributes the most toward the spring's demise.

  17. #17
    rex
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    Don't ya love this subject,hehe?Believe it or not,everyone has a point here.My 'puter ate the big one but I had a spring metalurgist jump in to one of these and lost that and more-again.The initial set is seriously dependant on-guess what-price.

    Like I said,Wolff is basically THE spring as stated.The only thing I don't use them for is HK because they have had known bad runs as Shipwreck has implied.The dude I had the article from had covered all aspects of this conversation covered,but it wasn't limited to just mag spring,it was springs period.We accept a set and lived with it,no biggie as long as they don't go in the crapper fast.That being said,in a situation where the spring isn't being taxed by pushing the line between it's compressed length and space to be so,they're good.As SW said,Beretta pushes the line by my experience in the 92FS and I have 10 to prove it,a 7rd 1911 doesn't near as bad.GI 30rd AR mags do also.Throw 8rds in a 7rd tube 1911 mag conversion and they hit the sheeter fairly quick too.

    Your car sits on springs,buy one and park it for decades.A cheap car may sag from set,a good spring will not,even holding up 2 tons.Part of that 'set' also has to do with the seals in the shocks deteriorating and leaking down a touch.Considering when a 1911 recoil spring is 1/2" short of new and spent,we're really talking peanuts to a point.Now throw in an original spec 1911 mag that performed 60 years later fully loaded,and trying that with a mag that cost a good 7X that with basically a new and improved spring,follower,and hey-let's add 1/4" to relive some pressure on the spring.

    Sorry guys,rambling again,trying to get over losing a pool tournament by one freakin'shot.Later.

  18. #18
    Reddog1's Avatar
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    I don't pretend to be a metalurgist but I do have a degree in civil / structural engineering so I know just enough to be dangerous. There are good springs made for high cycle use and there are inferior springs made to mimic the part design but at less cost. Springs work essentially by resisting a load that attempts to twist (torsion) the wire from its manufactured or "formed" state. So the number of cycles placed on the spring does result in some fatigue, the actual amount of weakening varying depending on the composition of the steel, load, temperture, and number of cycles placed on it. Also, if you took a new spring and loaded it just once and left it that way for an extended period it would be expected to suffer "some loss" of resistance to the load too but the actual amount would depend again on the metalurgy, temperture and other factors and it might be very, very minimal as to be negligible. Basiclly, we are talking about a $30.00+/- clip here so does it really matter in the end? Buy good quality clips manufactured with top quality parts and use them as they were designed. I think there is a little paranoia present in this discusion and I wonder if it is based on actual problems with clips or a perceived problem with clips? If you are worried about it then rotate the clips you have preloaded with empty clips periodicly to reduce the stress placed on the springs. And buy the best quality clips you can afford. And just because one spring in one clip fails does not necessarily mean that there is a problem with all of the same brand clips or for that matter the design. There ............ I feel better. Hope this helps a little.

  19. #19
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    So, first - I'm full of it because I can't possibly be right. Now, "springs are consumables."
    Springs ARE consumable parts, to include your recoil spring, extractor spring (if there is one), hammer spring, etc. If you don't think so, sorry... you're wrong. They're just like oil in your car. Try going without changing that out periodically and see how it works out for you.

    Geeze... Once again, the original poster has 30-40 magazines - all loaded (as per his post). he asked a question. According to some, I know not what I say. But, all of a sudden, springs are "consumables." Interesting...
    There's no "all of the sudden". Springs have ALWAYS been a consumable parts. It's just that most people don't bother to maintain their weapons or don't shoot them enough before selling them off for the next "hotness" to ever have to worry about it. You'll also notice that I never said leaving magazines loaded is a good idea, other than to have them readily available. Having 30 guns with eleventy-billion magazines all ready to go, in my opinion, is silly. Personally, for one of my guns, I have about 60 magazines. 15 are loaded and used on a regular basis. The others sit stored for later use. Why anyone would load eleventy-billion magazines is beyond me. They can't carry them all with them in the event then needed to exfil the hell outta Dodge.

    I've dealt with this same issue by leaving rifle magazines loaded to capacity over a long period of time too. I'm not saying every magazine will suffer from this - but some do and will...
    Great. Good for you. Oh, and by the way, I was never addressing YOU specifically, but it seems as though you've taken this personally because you like to toss "consumables" around. I'm not taking it personally, I'm just exasperated by the steadfastness which people continue (read many people, not poor you) to think that things should last forever and never get scratched or ever have a broken part, etc.

    In closing, I will say that I personally think that leaving a lot of mags fully loaded for a long period of time is a bad idea. If you want to leave a lot of mags loaded, under-loading by 1 CAN and WILL extend the life of your magazine spring (NO WHERE DID I SAW UNDERLOAD BY TWO, I said ONE - and I admitted that I do not do this for 10 or less round magazines).
    Again, I WASN'T ADDRESSING YOU SPECIFICALLY! There's many of us that always contribute to this same topic and I was talking to everyone... not just you. Please, for future reference, if I'm addressing you, I will quote your post or specifically type "@Shipwreck". Kaythanks.
    Cycling loaded mags also help save the life of a magazine spring (this was advice in like EVERY gun magazine in th e 1990s and 2000s... But, if springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded, why would some of you advocate this as a strategy? If I am wrong, then it would make no sense now, would it?

    "Consumable" talk all you want... If he (the original poster) needs those mags one day - the ones left loaded for extended periods of time... When he's using them is NOT the time to find out that they MIGHT NOT be working because they were left loaded too long. Tell the bad guy to wait while you order some new springs and change them.....
    You seem to like to point out what other people say... unfortunately, you're not very good at it. I've never advocated keeping a shit ton of magazines loaded, just the ones you need/use. I never said YOU said down load by 2. See how that works, I read what you typed. I didn't wave at the pool and say "Hey deep end, you've met your match today!!!"

    Am I exaggerating? Well, look at what Denner said... His gun didn't work when he hit the range because of it... But he's lying too, right? And, if Denner needed his gun the night before he went to the range (for self defense purposes)? What then? Well, springs are "consumables" at $6... So, he can tell the attacker to wait a minute while he stops to change mags?
    I don't think you're exaggerating, in fact I also never even mentioned that either. If a gun doesn't work because it's been sitting there and then when you take it to the range and it doesn't work... that's because the gun isn't being maintained properly. I guess I never have that issue because I function check my weapons when they come out of the safe. Pretty simple to do and it eliminates 99% of the issues one may have if a gun sits idle. (counting up the references to "consumables" just to make sure you're taking what I said personally... too bad, I wasn't talking directly to you... you just took it that way. Often a sign.)

    Yes, I am being sarcastic because of the attitude here... I feel like I have to spell it out 1 letter at a time... I A-M N-O-T S-A-Y-I-N-G T-H-A-T T-H-I-S E-F-F-E-C-T-S E-V-E-R-Y M-A-G-A-Z-I-N-E, but it can effect some.

    This topic is always annoying because the "springs don't wear out by keeping them loaded" guys still have no proof that I am wrong. I just am just "wrong" because they say it's so... I must be so out of it, because what I have seen with my own eyes can't possibly be true. I MUST be lying or making things up or be in denial...... None of that could have possibly happened, because they say so...

    Also, there is always some way they can validly excuse the FAQ info from a GUNSPRING manufacturer, riight?
    I'm finished with this thread. Others can take from it what they wish... I am not wrong...
    Shipwreck, you're asking for data points. You've provided two. A gunspring manufacturer (who's in the business of SELLING gunsprings) and your own anecdotal evidence. So, a sample of two? Wow. That's definitive! You aren't proving the point from your point of view to any notable degree, except in your own mind. What I'm advocating, as you seem to have taken great affront to this word, consumable parts need replaced. Simple as that. Do springs have magical properties? No. Do they last forever? No. Do they need to be monitored and maintained? Absolutely. Should people come up for air from the deep end of the pool. Please do.

  20. #20
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    Nicely played........

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