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  1. #1
    beenen is offline Junior Member
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    can it pierce kevlar?

    I was just thinking about the recent shooting theater in Colorado about the shooter wearing a kevlar vest. now please excuse me but I am a total noob when it comes to this, but would a regular 9mm be able to pierce that kevlar? or what would you need to get through that stuff?

  2. #2
    Shipwreck's Avatar
    Shipwreck is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    Kevlar vests are sold in different levels... The higher the level, the more armor protection it gives against stronger calibers... So, that plays a factor... But no, 9mm would not penetrate...

  3. #3
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    What would you need to defeat Kevlar vests?

    A Head shot. Put rounds to the body and if they are ineffective, occular box to put the lights out.

  4. #4
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    Right on......... melon shots, the bad guy drops.

    RCG

  5. #5
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    You have to practice it.
    It's very difficult at any range but up-close-and-personal.

    It used to be called "The Mozambique Drill":
    You fire two shots to body center-mass, and very quickly observe their effect.
    If he hasn't begun to drop, you fire one shot to "head central."

    Try that at 12 yards, and learn why you need to practice, practice, practice.

    When you've mastered that, try it at 15 yards, after a quick, smooth presentation.

    Finally, try it just after running seven yards to cover.

  6. #6
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    The Mozambique or Failure drill are an absolute must for anyone who carries a pistol for defense. But it really is for "bad breath" distances. Not picking on you Steve as I know you are referring to pressing the skill level up, but at 15 yards (45 feet), I'd be moving and shooting. Why? Because it's highly likely that they won't be able to hit at that range either, but likely that they would react to incoming rounds in much the same manner. Very few people "stand and deliver" when the noisy end is barking at them. Move to cover and then open up on the dirtbag.

    I often practice it starting at 3 yards, 5 yards, then 7, then 15, but at 15 yards, the split times increase to the point of almost not being practical. Why? Because if they are armored up, they can take their time to take their shot. I don't have that luxury, so I'd move to cover first.

  7. #7
    SMann is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Kevlar vests are sold in different levels... The higher the level, the more armor protection it gives against stronger calibers... So, that plays a factor... But no, 9mm would not penetrate...
    I thought a 9 would go through a level one vest? Also I've heard from many that getting hit and having the vest stop the round hurts like hell. Someone drilling him would have certainly made him alter his course of action in some way. Bad situation all the way around. Tragic for those affected and ammunition for the anti 2nd crowd.

  8. #8
    skullfr's Avatar
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    the mozambique is a very good drill and most street level crime occurs within conversational reach.A BG isnt gonna stand 15 yds away and pull a gun to rob you,it is gonna be in your face.Carjackings are almost always in the same distance otherwise it wouldnt be a statistic as we could just drive off.I also practice firing from retention for a close encounter,although it usually results in a pelvic shot it will give you time to fire as you back up.I cant run so I practice to fight and stand my ground.I can still hit the ground and rollup firing.You need to be prepared for all situations

  9. #9
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    I specified medium-range because of two considerations:

    1. The question seemed to be based upon the recent Colorado tragedy. Any defensive shooting by an audience member would've been at medium range.

    2. As zhurdan understands, you must practice your skill at an extended distance, in order to assure its utility at even the closest range.

    Practicing only at "bad-breath distance" really assures very little, in terms of competence.
    Under panic-stress, your performance will degrade, so you need to be able to do much better than merely perform to normal standards.
    Although zhurdan is correct, that moving to cover would be an important component of this drill at medium distance, first you need to be able to do it with assured precision while standing still. Having conquered that hurdle, then you can begin working on the moving-and-shooting and move-first-then-shoot components.

  10. #10
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    Kevlar penetrators would be something like the military version of the 5.7x28 FN, the old .22 Jet, the Super 9 might do it depending of the vest. Small caliber high velocity. Most any rifle caliber. In the Colorado case, the shooter was probably safe against most anything someone in the audience would be carrying. How he would have reacted if 4 or 5 people opened up on him is open for debate. Head shots in a darkened theater with a couple of hundred panicked theater goers running about - not a good place to be.

  11. #11
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt45 View Post
    Kevlar penetrators would be something like the military version of the 5.7x28 FN, the old .22 Jet, the Super 9 might do it depending of the vest. Small caliber high velocity. Most any rifle caliber. In the Colorado case, the shooter was probably safe against most anything someone in the audience would be carrying. How he would have reacted if 4 or 5 people opened up on him is open for debate. Head shots in a darkened theater with a couple of hundred panicked theater goers running about - not a good place to be.
    That's why most people who are serious about carrying a gun for defense either carry a flashlight or have one attached to their gun. Still not an easy task, but an essential piece of gear. A person is going to have a hard time shooting something they can't see.

  12. #12
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    I would suggest reading this thread... I know its on another forum, but I hope the moderators let it go, because it has some fantastic information:

    Recent events and rethinking CCW caliber... - M4Carbine.net Forums

    There are some good thoughts there (on that thread). I personally have no intention of changing my carry weapon or caliber just because of this incident...

  13. #13
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    When I read these threads I don't know if the assuption is no one really practices. Or really knows the correct way to practice. If so why is it the case?

    RCG

  14. #14
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    When I read these threads I don't know if the assuption is no one really practices. Or really knows the correct way to practice. If so why is it the case?

    RCG
    Rhetorical question: Have you ever been to the local gun range and watched what most people who shoot think is "training"?

    Not sure about where you live Recoil, but for the most part, the vast majority of people I run into are at the range to pull the trigger as fast as they can, regardless of where the rounds go. Just to get their kicks. The percentage of people that show up with a purpose is far smaller. Take 20 minutes and peruse YouTube for gun videos. I'd say a good 95% of the videos on there have absolutely nothing to do with actual training. Nothing to do with accuracy and proficiency. I'd say the number drops when talking about people who frequent gun forums, but probably not as much as it should.

    Some things I pick up on that have a real world relation (my experiences and those of people I personally know) is that people who own 5-6 different platforms, without purpose (meaning it doesn't fill a practical niche) and are overly concerned about a small scratch on their heirloom grade pistol, aren't using them for genuine practice. It's a show piece. A conversation starter. An extension of their E-peen so to speak. Kinda like the guy we all know that has an F-350 with a 6" lift kit, mudder tires and boosted exhaust and their truck has never been off the pavement.

    Now, I'm not saying that valuing the condition of your investment is a bad thing, but there's a stark difference in folks who take care of their stuff and those who baby it. There's a stark difference between people who say their pistol is "flawless" after firing 200 rounds thru it and those that have run their gun thru thousands of practical and beneficial practice. There's a stark difference between people who say they've NEVER had a malfunction and those that have shot them enough to actually wear out a part.

    I'm not trying to be snobby, but it's kinda like someone saying they're as good a driver in their stock WRX as "The Stig" from Top Gear. There's just a multitude of differences between owning a gun and shooting a gun.

  15. #15
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    Understood........ I know exactly what you mean now. When I read this at first, my scope was far too narrow. Sometimes when I am at the LGS and I hear what people say I want to slap the sales guy for even thinking of selling a gun to someone like that. Then I realize OMG its the sales guy talking!!!!!

    Practice is important in everything, when you handle a gun I would think it is paramount!

    Thank you for helping me widen my eyes, I understand completely now.

    RCG

  16. #16
    dondavis3's Avatar
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    Steve M1911A harps about training training training

    And he's right.

    I've been through the police academy in 2 states - I have Army training ... and I shoot local self defense competitions

    I still feel I'm not properly trained

    Luckily I've drawn my gun in self defense only twice - and neither time resulted in firing a shot (thank God) .

    But I can tell you when the adrenalin is pumping and you're out of breath ... you better have practiced.

    And you will still probably miss

    By the way I too have no plans to change the caliber of gun I carry because of the murders in Colorado.


  17. #17
    Map9690 is offline Junior Member
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    Ok all you guys are on the right track but missing the point. An average conceal carry citizen will not have experience doing a so called Mozambique drill. Seriously? Most people shoot at 7 yards as is standard for self diffence. And yes an expert would find cover and choose his/her shoots as is dictated by the situation. With the Colorado shooting however, if holmes had been in the bible belt. EX: texas ,Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia. There would have been at least 5 out of 200 that had a gun. And let me tell you beenen I carry a glock 34 with 17 round mag and if you can connect that many shots to center mass it will drop someone regardless of Kevlar. Will it penetrate? No. But it will stop them from what they are doing and allow you to move closer and execute that headshot. However, practice is essential. If you can't react when it is most crucial the your s.o.l. And the reason I go to a range and fire quickly, for instances like this. End points of training; find a grip and stance you are comforitable with and practice your target shooting. There are so many options out there and I see different shooting techniques. Ex; front sight and top shot participants.

  18. #18
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Map9690 View Post
    ...An average conceal carry citizen will not have experience doing a so called Mozambique drill...
    Experience or no, practiced shooter or rank beginner, any response at all would've saved lives.
    Even a failed attempt at the Mozambique Drill would have been better than screaming while running toward an exit.


    Quote Originally Posted by dondavis3 View Post
    Steve M1911A harps about training training training...
    Well, Don, actually I've said that training is not enough, so I harp upon practice, practice, practice.
    But, yes, you should never stop learning. Training is good, and more training is even better.

  19. #19
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Smart man that Steve... people should listen to him and stuff. Props Steve.... props.

  20. #20
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    I dunno, zhur...
    I can never tell whether you're being complimentary, ironic, or snarky.
    ...And stuff.

    I guess that I'll think the best, and gracefully accept the compliment.
    Thank you.

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