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  1. #21
    goNYG's Avatar
    goNYG is offline Member
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    Pierce? Irrelevant

    Quote Originally Posted by Map9690 View Post
    Ok all you guys are on the right track but missing the point. An average conceal carry citizen will not have experience doing a so called Mozambique drill. Seriously? Most people shoot at 7 yards as is standard for self diffence. And yes an expert would find cover and choose his/her shoots as is dictated by the situation. With the Colorado shooting however, if holmes had been in the bible belt. EX: texas ,Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia. There would have been at least 5 out of 200 that had a gun. And let me tell you beenen I carry a glock 34 with 17 round mag and if you can connect that many shots to center mass it will drop someone regardless of Kevlar. Will it penetrate? No. But it will stop them from what they are doing and allow you to move closer and execute that headshot. However, practice is essential. If you can't react when it is most crucial the your s.o.l. And the reason I go to a range and fire quickly, for instances like this. End points of training; find a grip and stance you are comforitable with and practice your target shooting. There are so many options out there and I see different shooting techniques. Ex; front sight and top shot participants.
    I think Map9690 is on to something...why are we even talking about "piercing"? Some shots will and some won't depending on caliber, speed, distance...But that doesn't mean that shots to center mass don't have an effect. A 9mm bullet shot at 15 feet into the chest of a person wearing the IIIA vests that NYPD cops wear will put that person on the floor, no question. A 40 or 45 slug from same just might break a rib. Just because bullet isn't inside your body tearing your vitals to shreds, doesn't mean it isn't working to stop you from doing bad things. Mozambique? Head shots? C'mon. Beefy NYPD cops take hits to the vest all the time and they all hit the deck...Holmes looks to be of average build, he could have been neutralized fairly simply regardless of what he was wearing.

  2. #22
    dondavis3's Avatar
    dondavis3 is offline Senior Member
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    @ Steve M1911A

    I thought it was training you harped about .

    But it is practice practice practice

    My bad

    But you're right both are good.


  3. #23
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I dunno, zhur...
    I can never tell whether you're being complimentary, ironic, or snarky.
    ...And stuff.

    I guess that I'll think the best, and gracefully accept the compliment.
    Thank you.
    I do try to keep people guessing, but in this case, I was serious.

  4. #24
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    I think "the problem" in Aurora for anyone who could have been carrying was a "REAL problem".

    In this environment, most (all?) people have been conditioned to almost expect "fun stuff" before
    the movie starts. This was already "out" as "trailers" for the movie. You would have to recognize
    amongst the smoke and noise/flash this is real killing. Not an "enhancement to your movie experience".

    I think the person who could actually understand they were in a real kill zone during the seconds this occurred
    would be quite rare. Would you actually fire at a person who might be nothing more than a movie theater stunt ?
    I'm afraid I would not be up to that task.

    YMMV.

  5. #25
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    While I agree... sort of, there's a distinct difference between blanks and live rounds. More-so because they simply WOULDN'T come into a theater firing a blank gun at the crowd. Too many liabilities. I've been shot "near" before and I can tell you for a fact that it is VERY disconcerting and very different than a T-shirt cannon going off, or some guy pulling a "party popper" firework. Perhaps some people who haven't been around guns all that much may not recognized the tell tale signs of muzzle flash and percussive force, but I for one would and I'd have tried to drop his ass as soon as possible.

  6. #26
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    ...And talk about liability!
    If an "entertainer" came out, on stage, dressed as Holmes was and firing only blanks out at the crowd, and if someone in the audience was carrying, got alarmed, and cut him down, I will bet that the concealed-carrier's response would pass the "reasonable man" test, and that the theater owner and manager would be held liable for the death of the "entertainer."

    Riddle me that one, Batman!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    ...And talk about liability!
    If an "entertainer" came out, on stage, dressed as Holmes was and firing only blanks out at the crowd, and if someone in the audience was carrying, got alarmed, and cut him down, I will bet that the concealed-carrier's response would pass the "reasonable man" test, and that the theater owner and manager would be held liable for the death of the "entertainer."

    Riddle me that one, Batman!
    It's possible the CCW dude could prevail in their trial. Personally, I agree it would be "reasonable".
    But, I am just an old right-wing gun nut white man, reformed from a left-wing liberal "young man" by a REALLY close call.

    But, in a Denver CO suburb ? This might be a big stretch to "get off scott-free". I'd guess manslaughter at a minimum.
    In any case, the person would lose REALLY big-time in legal costs.
    See "George Zimmerman" vs. young black man casing houses in the rain under the influence of "Lean".

  8. #28
    Map9690 is offline Junior Member
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    Ya. And with that many people scrambling around can you imagine a beginner firing wildly into a crowd. Even if the intentions are good it would be hard as hell to get a clear line of sight. Maybe if you were in the first 3 rows or so. I want to know why an alarm didn't go off when he opened the emergency door before the movie started.

  9. #29
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanP_from_AZ View Post
    It's possible the CCW dude could prevail in their trial...But, in a Denver CO suburb ? This might be a big stretch to "get off scott-free". I'd guess manslaughter at a minimum...
    The gun-toter would also get a chance at the theater owner, in civil court, for steep damages.
    There, too, there's a good chance that he would prevail and, maybe, even be made whole.



    Quote Originally Posted by Map9690 View Post
    Ya. And with that many people scrambling around can you imagine a beginner firing wildly into a crowd...
    Three responses:
    1. That's why a gun-toter can't just put a gun on his belt and think himself ready for action. Do you carry a gun without really knowing how to use it?
    2. That's why a gun-toter has to practice, practice, practice. If you don't practice, you don't make hits under pressure and while experiencing a confusing environment.
    3. Some kind of response would've been better than no response at all. Even a peripheral hit would've stopped this fight.

    Holmes is a power-and-control fantasizer, living is a self-created dream world. One wounding hit would've brought him back to reality really quickly. He would then either have exited whimpering, stage left, or fallen to the floor and started crying.

  10. #30
    Dragonheart is offline Junior Member
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    As far as the shooting in Colorado it was mistakenly reported that the shooter was wearing body armor. What the FBI found was he actually was wearing a tactical vest, which is typical nylon with multiple pockets for magazines. This type of vest would have offered no protection from a typical handgun caliber unless the round hit a magazine and stopped or deflected. Had anyone been able to return fire, whether they were capable of a head shot or not, I think the outcome would have been quite different.

    The posts that comment on the lack of skill of the average person with a concealed carry are quite accurate.

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