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  1. #1
    tahsin is offline Junior Member
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    shots to take a man down

    How many shots form a 9mm handgun does it take (shots to the chest and stomach) to bring down a man? How quickly will a man fall to the ground after 4 shots are fired? DOes he fall backwards like in the movies or does he fall forward?

  2. #2
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    This is an impossible question to answer for the simple fact that no two shootings are the same. The list of variables is nearly limitless which equates to no guarantees. Be suspect of any definitive answers on this one.

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    Between 1 & 100.
    Too many variables.
    Shootee? Ammo type? Location of hits? Distance? Type of gun? etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tahsin View Post
    How many shots form a 9mm handgun does it take (shots to the chest and stomach) to bring down a man? How quickly will a man fall to the ground after 4 shots are fired? DOes he fall backwards like in the movies or does he fall forward?
    Interesting sort of question for a first post. Have something particular in mind?

  5. #5
    Shipwreck's Avatar
    Shipwreck is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    That is correct. It depends on where the shots hit at exactly - the person being shot, how close they are to you, their state of mind, their health, if any drugs are in their system... If they are a person that gets angrier when hurt, or the type of person who passes out at the sight of blood/paranoid about their health... All sorts of other questions...

    No answer to this question. 9mm is fine for self defense, however. All rounds are pour manstoppers, and the tiny bit of size difference really makes little difference in real world statistics (even though everyone likes to look at the gelatin tests)

  6. #6
    rex
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    30 and they still won't fall.This reminded me of a funny shooting back in the 80's.Some dirtbag broke into an elderly lady's house through the front door after being warned she was armed.She unloaded a 9 in him and dumped a reload in him,(the actual round count escapes me now).When the cops arived they asked why she shot him so many times and her answer was he didn't fall.Apparently when she shot him he fell back on the door and got hooked on a coat hook,so he couldn't go down.I never saw the original article on it but thought it was pretty funny.

    These guys are right,could be one,could be 10,could be he makes it to you and kills you.The Mozambique drill helps avoid him making it to you if you are quick and accurate enough.Doesn't really matter what handgun caliber either,serious drugs don't let pain register and 100lbs of fat can stop a bullet before it reaches anything worthwhile.That last one is why I feel a 380 is better than nothing but not a great choice without understanding the limitations of your choice.

  7. #7
    Tnic is offline Junior Member
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    Just one shot with a JHP .45ACP center mass hit.

  8. #8
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnic View Post
    Just one shot with a JHP .45ACP center mass hit.
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...


    For more info on this topic, see this thread:

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

  9. #9
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    with 4 shots the best possible outcome would be a nueral shock shutdown which could occur within 1-2 seconds.But like others said-too many variables for an absolute answer.

  10. #10
    Shipwreck's Avatar
    Shipwreck is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    In the early 1990s, I attended a police academy in Louisiana. We had to watch a training video of two officers (one male and one female) fight it out with a guy. The criminal attacked the two officers and was high on drugs (I do not remember what drug - its been a LONG time since I saw it). But, the male officer had a 357 magnum revolver - loaded with 357 magnum. He shot the criminal 6 times in the head as they fought over the gun. The criminal kept fighting... The cop had to keep fighting inside of a small bedroom, reload his revolver, and shoot the guy about 5 times before he stopped.

    The female cop had been knocked out, and the male cop was beat up pretty bad.

    The criminal was a deadman with those headshots, but he was so high and so worked out that he still could fight as he was dying. Typical? No. But, ya never know...

  11. #11
    SouthSideScubaSteve is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post

    For more info on this topic, see this thread:

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
    Very interesting article & data; thanks for posting the link to the original thread!

    It makes some intersting points and kind of reinforces what seemed intuitively obvious to me (if I ever have to shoot someone to defend myself or my family, the best plan is to keep putting rounds on target until they drop or overtake/overwhelm me)

  12. #12
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    In the early 1990s, I attended a police academy in Louisiana. We had to watch a training video of two officers (one male and one female) fight it out with a guy. The criminal attacked the two officers and was high on drugs (I do not remember what drug - its been a LONG time since I saw it). But, the male officer had a 357 magnum revolver - loaded with 357 magnum. He shot the criminal 6 times in the head as they fought over the gun. The criminal kept fighting... The cop had to keep fighting inside of a small bedroom, reload his revolver, and shoot the guy about 5 times before he stopped.

    The female cop had been knocked out, and the male cop was beat up pretty bad.

    The criminal was a deadman with those headshots, but he was so high and so worked out that he still could fight as he was dying. Typical? No. But, ya never know...

    I think you're referring to Steve Chaney featured in "Ultimate Survivor”.

    His partner, Linda Lawrence was killed during the arrest, and if I recall both guns were loaded with .38s.

    Chaney was involved in a second shooting later in carrier and ended it with one well place shot.

    I saw the video in the last year or so, some powerful stuff.

  13. #13
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    I think you're referring to Steve Chaney featured in "Ultimate Survivor”.

    His partner, Linda Lawrence was killed during the arrest, and if I recall both guns were loaded with .38s.

    Chaney was involved in a second shooting later in carrier and ended it with one well place shot.

    I saw the video in the last year or so, some powerful stuff.

    Also, on the topic of amazing caliber failures, I've found these three to be quite informative.

    Guns, Guns, & More Gosh Darn Guns: An End to the Caliber Debate?

  14. #14
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    I think you're referring to Steve Chaney featured in "Ultimate Survivor”.

    His partner, Linda Lawrence was killed during the arrest, and if I recall both guns were loaded with .38s.

    Chaney was involved in a second shooting later in carrier and ended it with one well place shot.

    I saw the video in the last year or so, some powerful stuff.

    Interesting story - I just read the link you provided.

    But, that wasn't the one we saw on tv at that academy. They were deputy sheriff's. I remember the male officer specifically had 357 magnum rounds in his revolver (we talked about the situation afterwards - and the disbelief of the rounds this guy took to the head), and the female deputy did survive. And, it occurred in a trailer home, I believe.

    The ones in the link you provided were deputy US Marshalls.

  15. #15
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Interesting story - I just read the link you provided.

    But, that wasn't the one we saw on tv at that academy. They were deputy sheriff's. I remember the male officer specifically had 357 magnum rounds in his revolver (we talked about the situation afterwards - and the disbelief of the rounds this guy took to the head), and the female deputy did survive. And, it occurred in a trailer home, I believe.

    The ones in the link you provided were deputy US Marshalls.
    Actually the article covers more, in this case( Chaney/Lawerence) were two Baton Rouge officers. I'm getting mixed results on .357 or .38, some sources list each...either way, the case I'm referencing was very, very close to what you were describing.

    Bad guy took a point blank to the head and 6 to the chest and was still fighting.

  16. #16
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    Hmm. was that lower in the page?

  17. #17
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Hmm. was that lower in the page?
    2nd to last paragraph:


    The three other police officers in the video also exemplify the determination to live: Kenyon Tuthill, a cop in Suffolk County, New York, who was blinded and disfigured by a traffic violator who shot him point-blank in the face; Mike Buckingham of the Washington State Patrol, whose ears and skin were burned off when he crashed during a high-speed pursuit and was trapped inside his burning car; and Steve Chaney of the Baton Rouge police department, who watched his partner get shot with her own gun by a huge, "superhuman" burglary suspect who withstood ten bullets before dying. Ultimate Survivors recently won a Golden Eagle, the top award from CINE, the Council on International Nontheatrical Events. The Golden Eagle makes the video eligible for the 1992 Academy Awards, in the documentary category.

  18. #18
    Shipwreck's Avatar
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    Its been so long ago, I don't remember everything in the video.

  19. #19
    Bob Wright's Avatar
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    As to which way a person falls when shot, seems I read long ago of a study. The highest percentage fell forward when shot or hit by shell fragments. As I recall there is a tendancy for the knees to buckle resulting in the forward falling.

    This is born out by combat footage from WW II showing men falling after being hit by various weapons.

    Can't imagine why the study was instigated.

    Bob Wright

  20. #20
    Ala Tom is offline Junior Member
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    I have read many of these reports, including the coroner's report on shot effectiveness. They are all rather in definite. There are just too many variables. But we must choose a caliber and weapon that gives US the best chance of an effective stop. That means, first getting a gun that we like to shoot and can shoot well, regardless of what others think about it. We're all different. Then I advocate, as an engineer with some experience in impact damage, using the caliber that gives the most muzzle energy with a bullet that has demonstrated reasonable expansion performance. No body can control an impact event completely. If you can hit a specific target on the body, that goes a long way to improving the effectiveness. But given the aspects of a violent confrontation, that cannot be guaranteed. The reason energy is important is because it is non-directional. It can do harm in various directions before it is dissipated. The momentum estimate commonly used as a "power" calculation is too directional to be very helpful. The energy value also indicates the ability to shatter bones or other semi-rigid body parts sending shrapnel through the body. With a powerful cartridge like a .45, .357 or .40, you can expect a chest shot to punch through the sternum and damage the heart and lungs. In other parts of the body they may punch through the body and do damage beyond it. i don't think we should be overly concerned about that. To protect ourselves and our loved ones, our main concern is to stop the BG. My choice for home defense is a .40 S&W. I would choose a 9 mm if a small gun was needed and if I could shoot it well enough to be sure of accurate second or third shots.

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