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  1. #1
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    About ready for a Glock

    Hello all,

    I was a policeman in another life, long ago, and was around when we started making the change from revolvers to semiautos. I kinda kept my penchant for revolvers, so my gun collection here is a mix of a .357 snubbie, .44 mag 7", and then I decided to start experimenting with the semi's, so here goes: Walther .22 cal. P22; HK P2000 9mm; HK USP .45 acp; Springfield Armory MilSpec M1911; Springfield Armory XD .45 acp; Smith & Wesson M & P .45 full size.

    Notice there's no Glock in there. I am looking for the "perfect handgun." I know what's perfect for me won't be perfect for everyone or maybe not even anyone, but here goes.

    I really like the short trigger pull and short reset on the 1911. I don't like having to carry it around "cocked and locked."

    The actions on the HK USP and the XD are smooth, but you give up some distance on the pull and reset.

    The M & P is kinda weird. There's no reset. And the trigger pull, while relatively short (It's about a quarter inch), is up around 11 lbs.

    I'm considering two things: first, I'm gonna try a Glock, now that I've gone through the HK, S&W, XD, and 1911. But second, I'm considering the .40 cal. version. So my question is: Am I giving up any stopping power by going from the .45 acp to the .40 S&W?

    My other question: Anyone have experience with comparisons between the Glock and the others I've listed?

    Hope I'm in the right place here....feel free to redirect me if I'm lost!!!

    Thanks,

    Jim

  2. #2
    onalandline's Avatar
    onalandline is offline Junior Member
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    My own opinion: The .40 is plenty of stopping power. I have a G27 (subcompact .40) and G19 (compact 9mm). If you want the .40, I'd go with the G23 (compact) since it holds enough rounds and is still concealable. I do not have experience with the others you list.

  3. #3
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    I don't think the .40 or the .45 has a lock on quick stops, so if you can place the bullet well, either should do the job. You'll get a bit larger bullet with the .45, of course, and that's important to some folks; on the other hand, you'll get a few more shots in the mag (maybe more that a few more) with the .40, and I've never heard of anyone complaining after a gunfight that they wished they had LESS ammo. The .40 recoil is bit more snappy that a .45 in similar-sized/weighted guns, but there are very few directly comparable .40 and .45 weapons, as they normally are built on different frames, so the usually smaller and lighter .40 guns win this round, too.

    If you plan on ever carrying it concealed, then onalandline's suggestion of the G23 (above) is a good choice. For open carry or range use, or if your hands are fairly large, the full-size G22 may be a better pick. The new Gen4 Glocks in .40 are working just fine, and the dual-spring recoil assembly does reduce a little bit of the bounce over the older Gen3 single-spring guns. I bought a Gen4 full-size .40 not too long ago, and right now it's shooting better than one of my match-ready Glock 34 9mm long-slides, which is kind of annoying. Be prepared for a slightly boxy feel to the Glock grip; if you shoot it regularly, your hand and mind will adapt and you'll never think about it after the first month or so.
    "Placement is power" -- seen in an article by Stephen A. Camp
    (RIP, Mr. Camp; you will be remembered, and missed)

  4. #4
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    Hello all,

    I was a policeman in another life, long ago, and was around when we started making the change from revolvers to semiautos. I kinda kept my penchant for revolvers, so my gun collection here is a mix of a .357 snubbie, .44 mag 7", and then I decided to start experimenting with the semi's, so here goes: Walther .22 cal. P22; HK P2000 9mm; HK USP .45 acp; Springfield Armory MilSpec M1911; Springfield Armory XD .45 acp; Smith & Wesson M & P .45 full size.

    Notice there's no Glock in there. I am looking for the "perfect handgun." I know what's perfect for me won't be perfect for everyone or maybe not even anyone, but here goes.

    I really like the short trigger pull and short reset on the 1911. I don't like having to carry it around "cocked and locked."

    The actions on the HK USP and the XD are smooth, but you give up some distance on the pull and reset.

    The M & P is kinda weird. There's no reset. And the trigger pull, while relatively short (It's about a quarter inch), is up around 11 lbs.

    I'm considering two things: first, I'm gonna try a Glock, now that I've gone through the HK, S&W, XD, and 1911. But second, I'm considering the .40 cal. version. So my question is: Am I giving up any stopping power by going from the .45 acp to the .40 S&W?

    My other question: Anyone have experience with comparisons between the Glock and the others I've listed?

    Hope I'm in the right place here....feel free to redirect me if I'm lost!!!

    Thanks,

    Jim
    Ah yes, the problem with gun enthusiasts everywhere. Always searching for that perfect gun. I've certainly been there (could say I still am), so I know your plight.

    "The M & P is kinda weird. There's no reset. And the trigger pull, while relatively short (It's about a quarter inch), is up around 11 lbs."


    The M&P does have a reset but it's negligible in feel and sound. There is a kit available from Apex Tactical to remedy this. The trigger pull of the M&P is longer than 1/4" (more like 1/2") and for some reason, the .45ACP versions do have a higher weight trigger on them. I have a .45 M&P with the 4" barrel and the stock trigger came in at around 8.5 pounds. I installed the Apex DCAEK (kit) and kept the stock trigger spring instead of using the spring that came with the kit. This returns a measured weight of 5 pounds with a very crisp break.

    I have three gen3 .40S&W Glocks: a G27 and two G23's. I have modded all of them with the two G23's receiving identical mods and more than the G27. These are fine guns. If you have larger hands, you may find the G22 to be your better choice. As for the .40S&W vs .45ACP, you'll find a host of opinions and "facts" out there, but most will confirm that the .40 in its top quality defense loads is every bit the match of the .45ACP. One load in particular tends to shine the best; the Federal HST in either 165gr or 180gr. There is also an excellent load made by Gold Dot in 165gr. The number is 53970. Both of these loads are Law Enforcement loads but you can find them at major gun shows or online.

    As for experience between the Glock, the M&P, and the XD yes, I have experience with all of these. I have three M&P's and an XD40. I'm not a big fan of the XD because of its grip angle and the fact that it has a higher bore axis than I like. It is a very nice carry gun so my thoughts on it are personal opinion only. The M&P has the best grip feel of the three in stock trim and seems to tame the .40's recoil the best.... if you are recoil sensitive. The magazines for the M&P have somewhat weaker lower quality springs (take one apart and examine it), and can be harder to load the first round. The Glock (mine are all gen3) has the lowest bore axis of these three companies which works well for me. The stock, basic sights leave much to be desired so quality after market sights are your best bet. I have Trijicon GL01's on my G23's and my G19 and love them. They let just the right amount of light around the front post to the rear aperture and are low profile and snag-free. The Glock magazine is a thing of beauty. The Glock is the only one of these three than uses polygonal rifling (this increases velocity and makes cleaning easier).

    As for some other factors, of these three guns, the Glock has the longest tract record of reliability and durability, and it just works. I am not a strongly biased gun owner. I appreciate a number of different offerings so I am not singing the praises of Gaston's "plastic fantastic". But facts are facts and the Glock is a proven design. It is simple (I think it has only 34 parts), easy to repair by yourself, simple do detail strip, easy to mod, and inexpensive to operate.

    Any one of the three guns I have talked about would be a fine choice. As I said, I can't speak too much about the XD, but I can about the M&P and the Glock. M&P has a few quirks I have run into at the range (I have put around 2000 rounds through my 2011 M&P 9mm Pro Series). Two weeks ago, while doing the "Dot Torture Test" drill, this M&P failed to hold the slide back around six times, and twice ran the slide into full battery on its own when I did a speed reload. This just does not happen with my G23's or my G19. I love the way this M&P shoots and handles, but over the past two+ weeks, I made a few changes to my G23's and my G19. The aforementioned Trijicon sights to replace factory night sights and after market Warren Tacticals and all now sport the Pierce magazine extension. This has made a nice improvement for me with these three Glocks and next week I'm going to concentrate one two of them to see how they really respond.

    Lastly, all of my Glocks, especially the three I have talked about here, have received trigger mods by me. They all come in now between 4 pounds 14 ounces to 5 pounds 2 ounces with very noticeable audible and felt resets. You can make the trigger better on Glocks.

    Hope all of my rambling helps you.

  5. #5
    chessail77's Avatar
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    I noticed that there were no Sigs listed might want to take a look at the SP2022 in .40...excellent firearm@ a reasonable price.....JJ

  6. #6
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks guys, exp. SouthernBoy...at least I feel better about going to the Glock. And I will look into the Sig...they seem popular, not sure why I haven't done it so far. Now I have to figure out which of these I can purchase here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    . . . at least I feel better about going to the Glock . . .
    Lots of great info above. I have nothing to add, except I'm so sorry you are apparently determined to "go over to the dark side".


    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    . . . Now I have to figure out which of these I can purchase here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia....
    I have nothing to add to this either, except I'm so sorry you apparently haven't been able to escape as yet.

  8. #8
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanP_from_AZ View Post
    Lots of great info above. I have nothing to add, except I'm so sorry you are apparently determined to "go over to the dark side".


    I have nothing to add to this either, except I'm so sorry you apparently haven't been able to escape as yet.
    I agree.....I think he should try out a Beretta 96.......just sayin..

  9. #9
    FNISHR is offline Member
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    I have several semi's besides my Glocks and like them all. I'm just not a .40 cal guy. My G17 is a very pleasant weapon. When I'm in a larger caliber mood, but still feeling like a Glock, there's always my G21.

  10. #10
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the comments. And I'm still planning my escape.
    I will explore any weapons recommended on this thread. I'm open minded about the next gun. Or guns. I'm gonna look into the Sig SP2022 and the Beretta 96, although I am slowly coming to the realization that I have a closet full of 45 acp so why am I thinking of .40??? Are the .40 S&W's any cheaper than the acp's?

  11. #11
    DJ Niner's Avatar
    DJ Niner is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    Yes, when comparing standard (nothing exotic) .40 and .45 ammo of the same brand and bullet style, the .40 will always be cheaper. Depending on where you get it, .40 might be 20%-25% less expensive (again, for comparable loads).
    "Placement is power" -- seen in an article by Stephen A. Camp
    (RIP, Mr. Camp; you will be remembered, and missed)

  12. #12
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
    SouthernBoy is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    Thanks for the comments. And I'm still planning my escape.
    I will explore any weapons recommended on this thread. I'm open minded about the next gun. Or guns. I'm gonna look into the Sig SP2022 and the Beretta 96, although I am slowly coming to the realization that I have a closet full of 45 acp so why am I thinking of .40??? Are the .40 S&W's any cheaper than the acp's?
    Take your time and try to handle and consider as many different candidate guns as you can. Stick with quality... don't short yourself there. Next is to try to rent your candidates at a range, or go to a range with friends who have copies of them, so you can fire your choices to see how good the match is between you and your choices.

    Research as much as you can to learn about the little nuances and quirks of your candidate guns. I mentioned a few above. If a particular gun is ammo-sensitive or has a tendency to fail to feed certain types of ammunition, that may be one to avoid.

    Another thing a lot of folks overlook until they own and have shoot a gun is how easy it is to disassemble to clean? Some guns have really strange disassembly steps you have to follow. Also, some guns have more blowby gases which dirties up the internal workings and magazine followers. Is the slide stop easy to reach and easy to release or is it hard? What about the magazine release? Is it also easy to reach? Does it protrude too much beyond the gun's frame? Is there an external safety and do you want one? Does the magazine drop free with some force when the release is pressed? Is there a magazine disconnect safety and do you want that? Are the sights snag-free? Can you acquire a good sight picture quickly and consistently? What about the gun's weight? Is it too much for daily carry? Is the gun a "natural pointer"?

    I could go on but you get the picture. Lots of things to consider before laying down your money.

  13. #13
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks. You mention a few things I haven't considered...thanks! I am pretty sure I want to stick with the internal type firing mechanism...no exposed hammers. So that seems to eliminate a lot of weapons right off the bat. I'm going to look into those modifications that you mentioned earlier for my M&P. I really like the gun generally, just don't like that scratchy trigger with no reset. And I think I'm going to go with the Glock 21. It's comparable to most of my other handguns right now so it'll be easier to compare. I'll keep you posted...thanks again. I appreciate all the info!!!
    Jim

  14. #14
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are on a similar path to what I took, when I started buying self-defense type pistols. The 1911 is hard to beat, but like you, I don't really prefer 'cocked and locked.' I have carried that way, and it doesn't bother me, but I still seem to gravitate towards striker fired pistols for SD. I prefer the XD45 Compact over anything I've tried so far. I like Glocks OK, have a G20, and I shoot them at least as well as anything else, but they just aren't that 'comfortable' to me.

    Don't overlook the CZ-75 variants, if you are considering SA/DA (like the Sigs). I've found nothing more accurate, and they compare very well with the more expensive Sigs.

  15. #15
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by onalandline View Post
    My own opinion: The .40 is plenty of stopping power. I have a G27 (subcompact .40) and G19 (compact 9mm). If you want the .40, I'd go with the G23 (compact) since it holds enough rounds and is still concealable. I do not have experience with the others you list.
    I have these same two weapons. I carry my G27 on the ankle, and the G23 on my right hip.

    When seated, especially when belted in, in a car, the hip mounted weapon is largely inaccessible, but the ankle rig is very accessible.

    When standing, the ankle rig is slow to access and puts your in a vulnerable position when drawing it.

    I find that on the hip, the G23 rides better. The longer barrel keeps the butt of the gun closer to the body. The weight differential is minor.

    I prefer the .40 over the 9mm, but size wise they are identical. The 9mm has less recoil, carries more rounds, and costs less to shoot.

    The .40 is a more effective round in my opinion (and in the opinion of most police departments). How many are switching from .40 to 9mm? How many are switching from 9mm to .40?

  16. #16
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post

    The .40 is a more effective round in my opinion (and in the opinion of most police departments). How many are switching from .40 to 9mm? How many are switching from 9mm to .40?
    You'd be surprised. There are also departments going from the .40 to the .45 as well.

  17. #17
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    You'd be surprised. There are also departments going from the .40 to the .45 as well.
    That does not surprise me. The .45 is the most proven round in the world. More people have been knocked down and killed with the .45 than any other. I would call it a tie with the .357 magnum, but the .45 is much easier to shoot well.

    But it would surprise me if a department went from a .45 or a .40 or a .357 Sig to a 9mm.

    The 9mm is easier to shoot, but police get more training time and should be able to handle the heavier rounds. Plus it is their life they are putting on the line. They are the equivalent of firemen running into burning houses.

    Cops run towards crimes in process.

    If I were a cop I'd want plenty of gun and a good vest.

  18. #18
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    That does not surprise me. The .45 is the most proven round in the world. More people have been knocked down and killed with the .45 than any other. I would call it a tie with the .357 magnum, but the .45 is much easier to shoot well.

    But it would surprise me if a department went from a .45 or a .40 or a .357 Sig to a 9mm.

    The 9mm is easier to shoot, but police get more training time and should be able to handle the heavier rounds. Plus it is their life they are putting on the line. They are the equivalent of firemen running into burning houses.

    Cops run towards crimes in process.

    If I were a cop I'd want plenty of gun and a good vest.
    According to who?

    Twice annual qualification is the norm.

    As for "down grading"

    St Paul PD
    Wichita PD
    Indiana State Police
    Miami PD

    All have gone back to the 9mm. There's a good number of departments that never left.

    Then you have the likes of this:

    Why Rob Pincus now prefers the 9mm over .40 S&W...
    And this:

    Interesting read by Mas....
    The 9mm is the most popular round. The spokesperson for training said, "A number of our officers have found they can hit center faster, with more bullets, with the 9mm," continuing, "We've also had a number of the older officers go to the 9mm after issues such as arthritis made it more comfortable for them, and easier for them to run with speed and accuracy."
    I'm sure there's more out there, just doesn't always "make the news"

  19. #19
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    I do not have your experience level in a professional matter.I did come across this book which I just ordered.I will provide a link so you can make up your own mind.This is written by 2 men with a long LEO experience level.They are Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow,The book is Handgun Stopping Power-A definitive Study.All data is taken from real world situations.There are 3 pages of aknowledgements to people of a professional level.What surprised me was that a .357 federal in 125gr JHP had a 96.96 % of a one shot stopping,Its percentage was above all in the study.I feel this is a good addition to my library.Hope you enjoy.

    Amazon.com: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study (9780873646536): Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow: Books

  20. #20
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    I do not have your experience level in a professional matter.I did come across this book which I just ordered.I will provide a link so you can make up your own mind.This is written by 2 men with a long LEO experience level.They are Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow,The book is Handgun Stopping Power-A definitive Study.All data is taken from real world situations.There are 3 pages of aknowledgements to people of a professional level.What surprised me was that a .357 federal in 125gr JHP had a 96.96 % of a one shot stopping,Its percentage was above all in the study.I feel this is a good addition to my library.Hope you enjoy.

    Amazon.com: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study (9780873646536): Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow: Books
    The issue with that study is that they only looked at shootings where one shot was fired. When you look at any kind of attributing circumstances to what actually transpired at a given shooting, the details are pretty limited.

    I'm not saying that the .357 Magnum is a poor choice, only that the listed reference should not be used as a sole source of data.

    There are some other issues associated with their works (Marshall and Sanow) that call into question the works, that however is topic for another thread.

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