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  1. #21
    rex
    rex is offline Senior Member
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    I remember the auto transition,we were a little late in the game where I am though.I've always liked the 45 myself but the 40 will serve you well if it's what you want.I just find the loudness and snappiness a waste of time.

    Have you considered the Walther PPQ?I hear alot of good about it with a short reset on par with a good 1911.I think reset is a little overrated for the most part.While some are just awefully long,something up to maybe 1/8" isn't going to bother me.Revolvers are insane on reset but Jerry Mickulek seems fine with it,autos are a walk in the park.There also comes a point that the reset is so short that bump firing can set in easy if you're really getting down with it.Bump firing is when you come off the trigger for a real fast doubletap and the jump from lockup has you tripping the trigger again.Happens with real nice 1911 triggers at times.

    Having said that,have you varied the HK trigger?I don't know what can be done with the P2000,but the USP can really be tuned up.Alot like the hybrid light LEM but I haven't tried one yet.Bruce Grey isn't cheap but he does wonders with HK triggers,part of that cost though is having the internal parts recoated with NP3 after he polishes off the original Dow coating.The Match trigger setup is nice,mine isn't broke in yet but it's nice and I love 1911s.I don't know if the reset point is changed,but technically it is a little shorter because the trigger stop eliminates overtravel from the stroke.The Match trigger doesn't drop in a USP compact but you can install the stop screw in the original trigger to come up with a full match conversion.Mine will probably settle in about 4.5lbs when smoothed out,then I may try the light LEM to ditch the DA pull from the equasion.I can deal with the DA but I prefer not to on the larger guns.

    Good luck.

  2. #22
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    VAMarine,I dont rely on just charts or data but found thier results surprising.I ordered the book because of reading the excerpt of the mechanics of collapse.In these days of so much bad info.I was trying to find what I thought was commonsense mechanics of the body.I am no dr and thought what the sample sounded reasonable.I even look at some of the medical studies but some of it is above my head.I by no means want to put out bad info,but it is so hard to get real reliable info.

  3. #23
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    VAMarine,I dont rely on just charts or data but found thier results surprising.I ordered the book because of reading the excerpt of the mechanics of collapse.In these days of so much bad info.I was trying to find what I thought was commonsense mechanics of the body.I am no dr and thought what the sample sounded reasonable.I even look at some of the medical studies but some of it is above my head.I by no means want to put out bad info,but it is so hard to get real reliable info.
    No doubt, but for the longest time these works were treated as Gospel despite painting an incomplete picture of shootings.
    My commentary above was more for those reading rather than for you directly.

  4. #24
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
    SouthernBoy is offline Senior Member
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    As for that gritty scratchy trigger with M&P's, there's a very simple remedy for that. Apex Tactical offers a highly polished item they market as their USB (Ultimate Safety Block). Install this and that grittiness will completely disappear. All three of my M&P's have this installed (I did two of them). Apex has other items you may be interested in for your M&P.

  5. #25
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    I do not have your experience level in a professional matter.I did come across this book which I just ordered.I will provide a link so you can make up your own mind.This is written by 2 men with a long LEO experience level.They are Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow,The book is Handgun Stopping Power-A definitive Study.All data is taken from real world situations.There are 3 pages of aknowledgements to people of a professional level.What surprised me was that a .357 federal in 125gr JHP had a 96.96 % of a one shot stopping,Its percentage was above all in the study.I feel this is a good addition to my library.Hope you enjoy.

    Amazon.com: Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study (9780873646536): Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow: Books
    The first of the tri-series of these works came out in the 90's. I have all three. Like anything else, you must keep an open mind when reading any study. In one of their books, the Federal Hydra-Shok .40S&W (I believe in 180gr) was reported to have 96% one shot stops. That load has since taken a back seat to the better Federal HST load.

    The thing is, none of this is static, loads or results. It's all very dynamic. So the best you can do is assimilate as much info on the subject as you can in an effort to aid you in taking good decisions in caliber selection and load choices for self defense.

  6. #26
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    I guess you could say I'm "impressionable." I used to carry the P2000 9mm pretty confidently. Then I spoke with a policeman in Pomona. He was a motor officer, and was injured in a crash, so he was housebound. He had a neighbor who was just a humongous a-hole. Well, his neighbor got really drunk, or stoned, or a combination of both, I don't recall the details, but he comes to the cop's house in the middle of the day threatening to take the cop apart. And this was a big bad guy...the officer is in his house with his 9mm. The bad guy gets a window open and starts through it. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. If my memory serves me correctly, the officer shot the guy nine times. What stopped him? Local cops arrived in response to the 911 call.

    That story did it for me. That's when I went to the .45's. I agree that a .357 is pretty much one of the top stoppers around, as that's what I carried on duty for many years. It's a cannon. It's just not that available in the semi's.

    And as soon as I log off here I'm going over to Apex to see about that modification for my M&P.

    Lotsa good info here...glad I joined. Thanks.

    Jim

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    I guess you could say I'm "impressionable." I used to carry the P2000 9mm pretty confidently. Then I spoke with a policeman in Pomona. He was a motor officer, and was injured in a crash, so he was housebound. He had a neighbor who was just a humongous a-hole. Well, his neighbor got really drunk, or stoned, or a combination of both, I don't recall the details, but he comes to the cop's house in the middle of the day threatening to take the cop apart. And this was a big bad guy...the officer is in his house with his 9mm. The bad guy gets a window open and starts through it. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. If my memory serves me correctly, the officer shot the guy nine times. What stopped him? Local cops arrived in response to the 911 call.

    That story did it for me. That's when I went to the .45's. I agree that a .357 is pretty much one of the top stoppers around, as that's what I carried on duty for many years. It's a cannon. It's just not that available in the semi's.

    And as soon as I log off here I'm going over to Apex to see about that modification for my M&P.

    Lotsa good info here...glad I joined. Thanks.

    Jim



    Accuracy speaks louder than bore size.



    Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice

    Resistance to Gunfire
    Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45—six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot—without any significant effect on his fighting ability. This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market.

    Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident


    The Aftermath
    Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

  8. #28
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    From what Ive read the physcological makeup of the individual also plays a part in it.Some people are predisposed with watching hollywood shootings and fall due to a wound in the flesh of the leg.We all know a heart shot is not instantaneous,perps or animals are known to continue on in the attack or flight..There are so many variables in each shooting.The only true one shot stop is the brain stem.It severs all body functions but it is a small target in a bone cage.From what I understand,the chest area has the most important and easier vitals to hit but doesnt neccessarily mean they will crumple.As long as enough blood is pumping they can still continue the attack especially if in motion and the body is full of adrenaline.Hence comes the term "shoot em to the ground".There is no majic bullet or the pistol is not a talisman that will protect us.I feel that in a violent encounter that the mindset of WIN no matter the cost is a key element.I feel you need to use our basic primal instinct along with training and practice so it becomes second nature is the key to survival.

  9. #29
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    From what Ive read the physcological makeup of the individual also plays a part in it.Some people are predisposed with watching hollywood shootings and fall due to a wound in the flesh of the leg.We all know a heart shot is not instantaneous,perps or animals are known to continue on in the attack or flight..There are so many variables in each shooting.The only true one shot stop is the brain stem.It severs all body functions but it is a small target in a bone cage.From what I understand,the chest area has the most important and easier vitals to hit but doesnt neccessarily mean they will crumple.As long as enough blood is pumping they can still continue the attack especially if in motion and the body is full of adrenaline.Hence comes the term "shoot em to the ground".There is no majic bullet or the pistol is not a talisman that will protect us.I feel that in a violent encounter that the mindset of WIN no matter the cost is a key element.I feel you need to use our basic primal instinct along with training and practice so it becomes second nature is the key to survival.
    Yep. There are no guarantees. And then there is this.

    Every shooting is going to be different. You will not know how your caliber/load choice is going to work until the day comes that you must use it. And even then, you will only know how well it worked for that specific and instance case. What this tells us is to choose wisely and train frequently. Add in a measure of the will to use your sidearm should you have to and you stand a reasonable chance of surviving an extreme encounter. I am also a firm believer in this little fact.

    Unless you have had similar experience in the past, you are never going to know how you're going to react in an extreme encounter until it is staring you in the face. All of the bragging and armchair discussions and such go out the window when reality is about to test your resolve.

  10. #30
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    you are exactly right sir.

  11. #31
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    SO...
    Ordered a D/CAEK from Apex. Got an email that said "Steve Hitch sent you a package."
    As for ammo? I think there are two basic considerations: shock, and mass. No doubt a jhp .357 is gonna have staggering shock power, and also no doubt that fat little .45 acp is gonna feel like the target got punched by a Terminator. I think I'd prefer the fat round to the smaller hi power round. I want something that's gonna stop an attacker. I know I can go look for articles that have been written on this, but I'd like the opinions of the real shooters here. What do you think???

  12. #32
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    In my opinion it would be a .45.I base this on a couple of shootings and years of black powder hunting.My favorite black powder was a 54 cal.The effect of the shock was so tremendous on game I took which was mainly deer and hogs.The same effect I feel you could expect in a .45.A large chunk of lead smacking meat and bone.The effect of a missed vital and hitting bone is pretty impressive.A 230 gr JHP that has expanded is a large piece of lead.At worst it creates large leakage.

  13. #33
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    SO...
    Ordered a D/CAEK from Apex. Got an email that said "Steve Hitch sent you a package."
    As for ammo? I think there are two basic considerations: shock, and mass. No doubt a jhp .357 is gonna have staggering shock power, and also no doubt that fat little .45 acp is gonna feel like the target got punched by a Terminator. I think I'd prefer the fat round to the smaller hi power round. I want something that's gonna stop an attacker. I know I can go look for articles that have been written on this, but I'd like the opinions of the real shooters here. What do you think???
    The DCAEK kit comes with a heavier than stock trigger spring. If you want a nice 5 pound trigger, do not install this spring. Everything else in the kit is fine to put in you M&P, but keep the OEM factory spring.

    As for SD ammunition, yes there are several schools of thought on this. Member skullfr in post #32 makes some good points. The thing is, most people are looking for a balance or compromise with their carry gun(s), caliber, and load. Nothing is perfect in the world of carry handguns, but some choices are better than others. Most of the folks I know on other sites who have actually either been involved in shootings or have been involved in the aftermath (think CSI, emergency personnel, doctors, nurses, etc.) tend to lean towards the larger calibers and the venerated .45ACP is right up there.

    I know this is a hard choice and your best bet is research and trying not to let biases enter the picture as you go about learning which loads have the better track records.

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