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  1. #26
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    I guess you could say I'm "impressionable." I used to carry the P2000 9mm pretty confidently. Then I spoke with a policeman in Pomona. He was a motor officer, and was injured in a crash, so he was housebound. He had a neighbor who was just a humongous a-hole. Well, his neighbor got really drunk, or stoned, or a combination of both, I don't recall the details, but he comes to the cop's house in the middle of the day threatening to take the cop apart. And this was a big bad guy...the officer is in his house with his 9mm. The bad guy gets a window open and starts through it. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. If my memory serves me correctly, the officer shot the guy nine times. What stopped him? Local cops arrived in response to the 911 call.

    That story did it for me. That's when I went to the .45's. I agree that a .357 is pretty much one of the top stoppers around, as that's what I carried on duty for many years. It's a cannon. It's just not that available in the semi's.

    And as soon as I log off here I'm going over to Apex to see about that modification for my M&P.

    Lotsa good info here...glad I joined. Thanks.

    Jim

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  3. #27
    VAMarine's Avatar
    VAMarine is offline Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    I guess you could say I'm "impressionable." I used to carry the P2000 9mm pretty confidently. Then I spoke with a policeman in Pomona. He was a motor officer, and was injured in a crash, so he was housebound. He had a neighbor who was just a humongous a-hole. Well, his neighbor got really drunk, or stoned, or a combination of both, I don't recall the details, but he comes to the cop's house in the middle of the day threatening to take the cop apart. And this was a big bad guy...the officer is in his house with his 9mm. The bad guy gets a window open and starts through it. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. The officer shoots him. He keeps coming. If my memory serves me correctly, the officer shot the guy nine times. What stopped him? Local cops arrived in response to the 911 call.

    That story did it for me. That's when I went to the .45's. I agree that a .357 is pretty much one of the top stoppers around, as that's what I carried on duty for many years. It's a cannon. It's just not that available in the semi's.

    And as soon as I log off here I'm going over to Apex to see about that modification for my M&P.

    Lotsa good info here...glad I joined. Thanks.

    Jim



    Accuracy speaks louder than bore size.



    Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice

    Resistance to Gunfire
    Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45—six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot—without any significant effect on his fighting ability. This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market.

    Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident


    The Aftermath
    Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

  4. #28
    skullfr's Avatar
    skullfr is offline Member
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    From what Ive read the physcological makeup of the individual also plays a part in it.Some people are predisposed with watching hollywood shootings and fall due to a wound in the flesh of the leg.We all know a heart shot is not instantaneous,perps or animals are known to continue on in the attack or flight..There are so many variables in each shooting.The only true one shot stop is the brain stem.It severs all body functions but it is a small target in a bone cage.From what I understand,the chest area has the most important and easier vitals to hit but doesnt neccessarily mean they will crumple.As long as enough blood is pumping they can still continue the attack especially if in motion and the body is full of adrenaline.Hence comes the term "shoot em to the ground".There is no majic bullet or the pistol is not a talisman that will protect us.I feel that in a violent encounter that the mindset of WIN no matter the cost is a key element.I feel you need to use our basic primal instinct along with training and practice so it becomes second nature is the key to survival.

  5. #29
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
    SouthernBoy is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    From what Ive read the physcological makeup of the individual also plays a part in it.Some people are predisposed with watching hollywood shootings and fall due to a wound in the flesh of the leg.We all know a heart shot is not instantaneous,perps or animals are known to continue on in the attack or flight..There are so many variables in each shooting.The only true one shot stop is the brain stem.It severs all body functions but it is a small target in a bone cage.From what I understand,the chest area has the most important and easier vitals to hit but doesnt neccessarily mean they will crumple.As long as enough blood is pumping they can still continue the attack especially if in motion and the body is full of adrenaline.Hence comes the term "shoot em to the ground".There is no majic bullet or the pistol is not a talisman that will protect us.I feel that in a violent encounter that the mindset of WIN no matter the cost is a key element.I feel you need to use our basic primal instinct along with training and practice so it becomes second nature is the key to survival.
    Yep. There are no guarantees. And then there is this.

    Every shooting is going to be different. You will not know how your caliber/load choice is going to work until the day comes that you must use it. And even then, you will only know how well it worked for that specific and instance case. What this tells us is to choose wisely and train frequently. Add in a measure of the will to use your sidearm should you have to and you stand a reasonable chance of surviving an extreme encounter. I am also a firm believer in this little fact.

    Unless you have had similar experience in the past, you are never going to know how you're going to react in an extreme encounter until it is staring you in the face. All of the bragging and armchair discussions and such go out the window when reality is about to test your resolve.

  6. #30
    skullfr's Avatar
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    you are exactly right sir.

  7. #31
    jdatbs77 is offline Junior Member
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    SO...
    Ordered a D/CAEK from Apex. Got an email that said "Steve Hitch sent you a package."
    As for ammo? I think there are two basic considerations: shock, and mass. No doubt a jhp .357 is gonna have staggering shock power, and also no doubt that fat little .45 acp is gonna feel like the target got punched by a Terminator. I think I'd prefer the fat round to the smaller hi power round. I want something that's gonna stop an attacker. I know I can go look for articles that have been written on this, but I'd like the opinions of the real shooters here. What do you think???

  8. #32
    skullfr's Avatar
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    In my opinion it would be a .45.I base this on a couple of shootings and years of black powder hunting.My favorite black powder was a 54 cal.The effect of the shock was so tremendous on game I took which was mainly deer and hogs.The same effect I feel you could expect in a .45.A large chunk of lead smacking meat and bone.The effect of a missed vital and hitting bone is pretty impressive.A 230 gr JHP that has expanded is a large piece of lead.At worst it creates large leakage.

  9. #33
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdatbs77 View Post
    SO...
    Ordered a D/CAEK from Apex. Got an email that said "Steve Hitch sent you a package."
    As for ammo? I think there are two basic considerations: shock, and mass. No doubt a jhp .357 is gonna have staggering shock power, and also no doubt that fat little .45 acp is gonna feel like the target got punched by a Terminator. I think I'd prefer the fat round to the smaller hi power round. I want something that's gonna stop an attacker. I know I can go look for articles that have been written on this, but I'd like the opinions of the real shooters here. What do you think???
    The DCAEK kit comes with a heavier than stock trigger spring. If you want a nice 5 pound trigger, do not install this spring. Everything else in the kit is fine to put in you M&P, but keep the OEM factory spring.

    As for SD ammunition, yes there are several schools of thought on this. Member skullfr in post #32 makes some good points. The thing is, most people are looking for a balance or compromise with their carry gun(s), caliber, and load. Nothing is perfect in the world of carry handguns, but some choices are better than others. Most of the folks I know on other sites who have actually either been involved in shootings or have been involved in the aftermath (think CSI, emergency personnel, doctors, nurses, etc.) tend to lean towards the larger calibers and the venerated .45ACP is right up there.

    I know this is a hard choice and your best bet is research and trying not to let biases enter the picture as you go about learning which loads have the better track records.

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