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  1. #21
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    I like recoilguy's suggestions though I would rank them as the following

    M&P
    Ruger SR9
    Glock (as I have more experience with them though it would be pretty close to tied for a CZ)
    Sig (can't remember the model number right off the bat. Wasn't much more saw alot of great reviews)
    CZ
    Beretta

  2. #22
    denner's Avatar
    denner is offline Senior Member
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    [QUOTE=Brevard13;252514]
    Quote Originally Posted by denner View Post

    I have now hung my head in shame. I said when you go back and read your post it sounds lie you are putting the px4 above the glock, m&p, xd, etc. Did I misread, possibly. Could you have typed that out differently yes. For the record ease define what you consider entry level. I do not put the Ruger on the same level as the Sigma and the Taurus. I don't even put the Taurus on any level of good named manufactureres like Sig, Beretta, S&W, Glock, Ruger, etc. if interchangeable backstraps is your definition ofsuperior then I am shocked. Backstraps are good if they feel good. The px4 didn't just like the glock gen 4 backstrap doesnt change the feel as much.

    Also, since you have facts that prove the px4's superiority over the Ruger and others please post this. Not your opinion, but facts like you say. So for me to say that in my opinion the Ruger is a better gun that is my opinion. My opinion because I have shot the Ruger P series, the Sigma, and the PX4. Let's go back to your first post #3 on the topic.



    So you claim PX4's superiority yet you also say you don't know much about a Ruger. I am not saying he should or shouldn't get a px4. I hope if he tries one or gets one he likes it and doesn't regret his purchase. Unlike you I have never tried to pass any of my opinion as "fact" unlike you.

    Now I don't know if you are having a hard time understanding what I have typed or just not reading all the way through. Here is a quick summary.

    1. I asked you not to pass your opinion as fact, especially when someone new is just starting out. Giving your opinion as fine, but it is just that your opinion.
    2. From personal experience I said I felt the PX4 wasn't that great. Again I state this was my opinionalong with a couple of others.
    3. I never told him not to try or get a px4.
    4. Still waiting on your "facts" of superiority

    Was there anything else I forgot to mention.
    I think when you state myself, my friends and my cousin are not impressed with the PX4, you would make one believe that no one would be impressed with a PX4? I may be reading that wrong, but, when I get the perception that you come across as it's just not me, but my friends, and even my own cousin, so something has to be wrong with the PX4, right? I do believe you think of your opinion highly, so, I would interpret it as, if you don't believe me, I have friends and even my cousin to back up my opinion. Other than the subjective fit and feel of a pistol. Fact one, and one alone may be able to suffice is that the P series has a much more cumbersome takedown than a PX4, agree or disagree? Have you ever taken down a PX4? Can you change out the entire trigger mechanism in the P series in less than 15 minutes? Is there an option to modify the grip size with the P series? And comparing the Gen 4 glock grips in that department is wrong. That is all fact and is the reason the PX4 is superior over the P series. Now subjective opinions, the way the pistol feels and shoots for you, or maybe a first starter pistol which has grown into a admiration is fine, but, frankly, I have a much different take on the PX4 than you, your friends, and yes, even your cousin.

  3. #23
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    [QUOTE=denner;253034]
    Quote Originally Posted by Brevard13 View Post

    I think when you state myself, my friends and my cousin are not impressed with the PX4, you would make one believe that no one would be impressed with a PX4? I may be reading that wrong, but, when I get the perception that you come across as it's just not me, but my friends, and even my own cousin, so something has to be wrong with the PX4, right? I do believe you think of your opinion highly, so, I would interpret it as, if you don't believe me, I have friends and even my cousin to back up my opinion. Other than the subjective fit and feel of a pistol. Fact one, and one alone may be able to suffice is that the P series has a much more cumbersome takedown than a PX4, agree or disagree? Have you ever taken down a PX4? Can you change out the entire trigger mechanism in the P series in less than 15 minutes? Is there an option to modify the grip size with the P series? And comparing the Gen 4 glock grips in that department is wrong. That is all fact and is the reason the PX4 is superior over the P series. Now subjective opinions, the way the pistol feels and shoots for you, or maybe a first starter pistol which has grown into a admiration is fine, but, frankly, I have a much different take on the PX4 than you, your friends, and yes, even your cousin.
    You my friend need to go back and re-read post #12. Wait I will quote it for you so you don't have to scroll up.

    1. I asked you not to pass your opinion as fact, especially when someone new is just starting out. Giving your opinion as fine, but it is just that your opinion.
    2. From personal experience I said I felt the PX4 wasn't that great. Again I state this was my opinion along with a couple of others.
    3. I never told him not to try or get a px4.
    4. Still waiting on your "facts" of superiority
    So at what point did I say no one would be impressed with it. Please show me. You said it was heads and tails above the others. I showed you 4 people who disagreed (based on THEIR OPINION)with YOUR OPINION. At no point did I ever claim what I said to be fact.

    You claim I think highly of my opinion. That is rich coming from a guy who just tried to pass his opinion with fact. yet, we have not seen one fact yet. You keep saying how it is so much superior than the Ruger P series yet in your 2nd post you said and I will quote AGAIN
    and I don't know much about the Ruger. CDNN has Beretta PX4 Storms for a very low price of 439.00 and is heads and tails above all the pistols you have mentioned.Glocks, S&W M&P, Ruger SR9C, Walther PPQ, to name a few
    . Now, who is thinking highly of THEIR OPINION? You just said you don't know much about the Ruger, yet, you can pass off the PX4 superiority as fact? All I did was said side by side I preferred and shot the Ruger alot better. That is my opinion, my experience, and the fact I have shot both guns. And I guess you could take what you typed into a fact.
    if you don't believe me, I have friends and even my cousin to back up my opinion
    , but to make it more true If you don't believe me on my OPINION, I have friends and a cousin who can back up my opinion with theirs. And also debunk your "fact" about the PX4 being heads over tails better.

    1. Is the Ruger cubersome to take down? Guess it depends on who you are. I don't have any problems breaking it down. Yes, I have taken a PX4 apart to clean. I cleaned my cousin's PX4 before he traded it off. Trigger mechanism in under 15 mins? I don't see why not. you can completely disassemble one in under 7 mins and that is saying you have some problems with the slide lever and some of the pins.

    Ruger Completely Disassembly

    Which just for comparison looked easier than this

    PX4 disassembly

    Now for just field stripping I will agree the Ruger is harder to just do a simple field strip. Doesn't mean that it is less superior.

    2. Ruger P series grip. Can you change the size. Yes. You can swap the grips out and get some that are a tad thinner or even add a hogue grip with palm swells. What is your point? Superior huh? Can you have custom engraved grips with the PX4? How about wood grips? How about different colored wood grips? How about hogue grips on the PX4? Can you add palm swells to a PX4 if you have bigger hands and want more of a grip? You can add something like gun tape to give it some extra grip, you can add a pachmayr. Other than that on the PX4 you are changing backstraps, which like I said is the same as swapping a back strap on a Glock Gen 4. How is it wrong? If it is different please tell me how besides the feel.

    All this and I have really yet to see how the PX4 is superior. I'm really curious how you can sit there and say that the PX4 is more superior to a gun in which you claim you don't really know anything about. Also you have not specified which PX4 you are talking about. My cousin bought the PX4 type D which was DAO no decocker no safety. you also have the type C which is SAO no decocker no safety. The type F SA/DA decocker and manual safety (closest to the Ruger P series), and the Type G which is SA/DA decocker no manual safety. And we won't even get into the PX4SD much less the full sized, compact, and subcompact models.

    Now just something for you to read ( I don't know how accurate it is or what all they did my friend sent me the link in a email). Apparently, it is a accumulated total.

    Beretta Px4 Storm Pistol vs Ruger P95 Series Pistol | Compare Pistols And Revolvers on Pikimal

    Now read this part careful please. These are MY OPINIONS

    PX4 is better in the following
    -ease of field stripping
    -lighter weight
    -slightly smaller which makes for easier carrying of IWB

    Ruger is better in the following
    -more sturdy feeling
    -for me it was more accurate
    -better feel while being shot
    -felt less recoil

    Like I have said all this is my opinion and I have passed none of this is fact, however, you want to keep arguing just because I called you out on your heads over tails comment. You also claimed there was "facts" that the PX4 was superior, but based off what you typed you really have no experience with the Ruger. Not only that you have yet to put up any sort of proof and then said I think too highly of my opinion.

    I don't know whatelse I need to do. I already said it is up to him to try the PX4 and see for himself. I really have nothing that bad to say about the gun except I didn't care for how it felt and shot. It isn't the first gun that I haven't felt and shot I didn't like. It isn't the worst gun I have held or shot. neither is it the best. It is a good gun and I would have no problems owning one to shoot with ever so often. I would recommend it if someone said hey I really like this what are your thoughts.

    now since I have answered your questions why don't you answer mine.

    1. How much experience do you have with the Ruger P series?
    2. How many times have you shot that Ruger?
    3. Which Ruger was it and what caliber?
    4. What do you find so much more sruperior about the Px4 over Ruger
    5. Where is your proof of superiority? I am still waiting on those facts you were talking about earlier.

    If you want another of my opinions I would suggest you just quit while you are behind.

  4. #24
    SMann is offline Member
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    5.56 rounds penetrate less layers of dry wall than 12 ga buckshot and 9mm rounds. Saying an incompetant person is better off with a handgun is rediculous. Your logic is weak and your facts are not accurate.

  5. #25
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    The first gun my wife shot was a Beretta 92...and for the first time, she did extremely well.........as long as they can get some shooting time in, I really wouldn't worry about over penetration, under penetration, over thinking, under thinking.....just practice and shoot........you can read good and bad stories about all guns.....and for the most part, they all have had their problems at one time or another......fit, feel, function..period...

  6. #26
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMann View Post
    5.56 rounds penetrate less layers of dry wall than 12 ga buckshot and 9mm rounds. Saying an incompetant person is better off with a handgun is rediculous. Your logic is weak and your facts are not accurate.
    First off, it is rIdiculous. It amazes me how many people can't spell that right, and it aggrivates the ever living crap out of me!

    A 5.56...yes. Not everyone has a 5.56. I know a couple of people in person and a ton on the internet who don't like the ar-15 platform and will not shot anything other than a 7.62 ak-47. Being that the 7.62 can penetrate a cinder block I am pretty sure dry wall will be pretty easy. Then you figure in ammo for each gun and you can have varied results. FMJ vs Hollowpoint. For the people who do have armor piercing ammo, and the others who wanted the Dragon's Breath ammo, etc. There are a ton of factors. So to say that a 5.56 is always better is weak and inaccurate.

    Then you have the debate of whether to use buckshot and birdshot in a shotgun. Buckshot will penetrate deeper than birdshot. Of course there is alot of debate over a birdshot's stopping power much like a 9mm.

    Now let's take in the fact that maybe a guy does have a 5.56. Now take a woman who is home by herself, someone breaks in. A fullsized ar-15 is going to be a bit unwielded for a woman who doesn't have much experience with a gun much less an ar-15 especially in a high stressed situation. My wife has never shot a rifle and has only shot a shotgun once in her life and refuses to shoot another. Yet is extremely accurate with her pistol I bought her. Not only that, I'm satisfied that half the guys who own a ar-15 wouldn't be able to clear a house effectively in a high stress situation with a ar-15. Your average person doesn't take the time to practice shooting much less take the time to train how to effectively clear said house.

    If that isn't enough you will also have to factor in angle shots. Behind a bed with the rifle, shotgun, or pistol aimed upward will have a different type penetration than say if you are aiming down, or straight at the bad guy.

    So if you want my opinion. I feel that anyone who has little to no gun experience will find a assualt type rifle very cumbersome and unmanageable in a high stress situation. Stuck in one room and not moving, prop a shotgun on a bed. But, for overall use a person with little to no gun experience can quickly adapt to using a pistol at close range. I know I did when I first got into shooting. And to this day I can still shoot a pistol better than a rifle or shotgun.

  7. #27
    SMann is offline Member
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    It's aggrAvate, and I never said anything about a 5.56 always being better. I was simply pointing out that you don't know everything.

  8. #28
    scooter's Avatar
    scooter is offline Supporting Member - Legally Armed Scooter Trash
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