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  1. #26
    scooter's Avatar
    scooter is offline Supporting Member - Legally Armed Scooter Trash
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    Another line of thought is getting a 1911 model in .45 AND the 22lr conversion kit.
    I have the kit for the 4 inch 1911's and it works well on both my 3" kimber and my 4.25 commander.
    They also make the kit for the 5 inch models too.
    Best of both worlds
    OOps.....too late
    Last edited by scooter; 01-19-2012 at 09:12 AM. Reason: too slow

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  3. #27
    Tazman is offline Junior Member
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    That is awesome,Im glad you and your sons are out enjoying it all ready.Thats what its all about.I have been shooting for 30 some odd years and have always enjoyed it but not like i do now with my kids.Son is 21 now and kinda getting out of it but my daughter of 15 is way way addicted to it.We have a blast so i know where you are comeing from.Keep up the fun and buy more guns,lol.

  4. #28
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    " but have little experience with handguns" No offense, but you're teaching your children about handguns, and YOU have little experience? Maybe, you ought to GET a little experience first, yourself, before trying to teach...you know what they say..." Those that can, do, and those that can't, teach" No offense, just safety first......

  5. #29
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Actually, my experience has been that the very best learning occurs when you are teaching someone else.
    It focusses your attention on the details, and makes you "get it right the first time."

  6. #30
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    You must mean, like taking driving lessons from someone who has never driven? I gottcha........

  7. #31
    NCarrell40 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
    " but have little experience with handguns" No offense, but you're teaching your children about handguns, and YOU have little experience? Maybe, you ought to GET a little experience first, yourself, before trying to teach...you know what they say..." Those that can, do, and those that can't, teach" No offense, just safety first......
    When I said I have "little experience with hand guns", I meant that I have little experience buying them and have never owned one and have only fired other people's. My dad was a LEO for 30 years and is now training LEO in other countries for the UN. My Grandfather was a LEO for at least 40 years and also a gun smith. I live in Montana and have owned guns since I can remember as a kid. I have used just about every hunting rifle there is, and own several. I have a lot of experience with shotguns (both hunting and trap shooting) and have owned several. Suffice to say, I was brought up around just about every kind of legally owned gun and was taught very extensively on how to safely use and own them. I just have never owned a pistol of my own, and have only ever shot other people's (belonging to my Dad, Grandpa, friends etc.) Now I would like to teach my kids.

    I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. You are right based on the info I had presented in my previous posts. I just thought I would let you know that I am not new to guns in general or firearm safety and am more than comfortable teaching my children or anyone else on how to safely operate and own guns.

    I appreciate your concern. Trust me, my children's safety will always come first.

    By the way, the expression you used, "Those that can, do, and those that can't, teach"...I have no idea what point you were trying to make with it. You are essentially saying that firearm instructors are people who "can't", yet are telling me to go to them for instruction. That expression is stupid to begin with, but it's designed for a completely different application meant to insult teachers.

  8. #32
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCarrell40 View Post
    ...By the way, the expression you used, "Those that can, do, and those that can't, teach"...That expression is stupid to begin with, but it's designed for a completely different application meant to insult teachers.
    Thank you!
    That needed to be said.

  9. #33
    ZachRabbit is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Any full-size, all-steel handgun in 9mm or .45 ACP would be appropriate for a 13-year-old, assuming access to very-high-quality, professional instruction.

    However, your best bet would more likely be a Ruger .22 rimfire semi-auto. If you can find a clean, gently-used one, it would also be comparatively inexpensive.
    The only bad thing about them is that they are extremely difficult to take apart. But the good part is that, using modern, decent-quality ammunition, you do not have to take it apart for cleaning, at least not very often.
    The Ruger semi-auto .22 is reliable, easy to handle, and easy to shoot.
    Bonus: Your nine-year-old can handle this gun too.
    i agree with this man. haha.
    i may not know much about handguns myself, but if i had sons this age i would probably start them either both off with a .22 (cheap to shoot, and you don't have to buy two different calibers) or maybe the 13 year old with a 9mm.
    Ruger would be a good brand imo, as mentioned above.
    probably less likely to be afraid of a 9mm.....i've heard .45's and i personally think it depends on his fear factor.... if he's a jumpy kid i probably wouldn't start him out with that....but if he's been around shotguns and rifles... he may be used to a bigger "bang!".

    if it were me personally (again coming from a guy who doesn't know a lot about handguns, but this is my opinion, and what would feel right in my mind) i would start the 9yr old out with some sort of sub-compact .22 or small .22 revolver like you were saying, that he could hold onto well, and for the 13yr old, a 9mm like a Ruger SR9c....something he could probably find a better grip on as well, but later it would be a great gun that he would probably save most of or his entire life.

    from what i've shot so far, which haven't been many, but enough to realize (at least for me so far) if you don't have a good grip on a gun, you don't tend to have as much control, and you don't really shoot a very tight pattern, which translates into you seeing the not-so-great shooting and thinking you aren't doing well.....slow progress = boredom/loss of interest in kids, at least from what i've noticed, and i used to help out with kids' church camp for a few years in a row.

    so that is my opinion on this.... experts feel free to correct me, as i'm a newbie... but this is what feels right in my mind at the moment. haha.


    ADDED: also, personally, and this is just my opinion, but i wouldn't go super cheap on these pistols. i mean, if it were me, it'd be one of those things, where if i was getting my sons their first firearms, i'd want them to LOVE them and keep them for all or most of their lives. i'm not saying go out and spend a fortune... but something like Ruger is pretty decent... the SR9c isn't really exactly cheap in price, but well worth the money, imo.

    to me, it's like buying a guitar..... i could buy one of those electric guitar "starter" packs with and amp and everything and a cheapo guitar....or i could just splurge and get a quality piece right out of the gate, with something like a Gibson. always gonna sound great, always going to feel like quality....something you can feel confident with.

  10. #34
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    I didn't mean to dis teachers, especially since my wife is a teacher, and I have to live with her.......point being, there are a lot of people teaching things out there, who do not have the proper training......it was just a concern for your children, and nothing more....some people are more sensitive than others...the expression came out of that fact...there are yoga instructors, who aren't trained in yoga, but are teaching anyway, there are fitness instructors, who know nothing about fitness, and just want the cash...here in Wisconsin, there has been a rush of instructors teaching CCW classes, and some seem to be a bit on the shady side........so, lighten up.....

  11. #35
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    Reddog1 is offline Junior Member
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    Learn all the proper shooting techniques with a good .22 cal pistol or revolver before buying a larger caliber. Just a note here but it seems like many of the replys to this thread are implying that a .22 is somehow more safe than a larger caliber handgun. Teach you kids, first, that ANY handgun can kill you just as dead as any other. The first thing my dad taught me was that "every firearm should be handled as if it were loaded" and it is NEVER pointed at another person ..... I believe every kid should be exposed to a variety of firearms early. If they are old enough and responsible enough to handle a .22 handgun they are old enough to shoot a 9mm.

  12. #36
    NCarrell40 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by berettabone View Post
    ........so, lighten up.....
    I think I'm sufficiently light. I thanked you for your concern, agreed with that concern given the previous info I had posted, and assured you that safety is first. I just thought I'd let you know you were using that expression wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddog1
    Teach you kids, first, that ANY handgun can kill you just as dead as any other.
    I completely agree with this. The first thing I told my kids was that the .22 caliber round is responsible for more deaths in the US than any other. I have no idea if that fact is true or not, but I read it somewhere and figured it would serve to communicate the amount of respect they needed to treat guns with, .22 or otherwise.

    The second thing I taught them was to safety check any gun they picked up or someone handed them, even if I was the one handing it to them and they watched me safety check it one second earlier. Then, when you're absolutely sure it's not loaded, still treat it as if it is. Obviously when a gun is not loaded it's no more dangerous than a hammer, but having good habits at all times, loaded or not, is the biggest deterrent to an accident happening.

    The third thing I made them do is to practice picking up the gun without putting their finger inside the trigger guard. This is a tough habit to break/form. It seems everyone has the natural insinct to rest their finger on the trigger every time they pick up a gun. To help them develop the good habit of not doing this, we played a bunch of laser tag as I monitered whether or not their finger stayed outside the trigger guard until they were ready to shoot at a target. I also have taken to getting their dart guns and laying them around the house. When they come in the room I ask them to put the guns away, and check to see if they are picking it up safely or not.

    Anyway, there's a lot more to gun safety than how you act when you are shooting. To me, it's about developing safe habits that eventually come as second nature. That only happens through repetition, but their are safe ways to do that repetition.

  13. #37
    prof_fate is offline Member
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    Glad you're out shooting. I'm getting back into it after 20 some years busy with other aspects of life and got my son a BB gun this past summer and and starting with the safety training and such there. (he just turned 11)

    Quote Originally Posted by NCarrell40 View Post
    When I said I have "little experience with hand guns", I meant that I have little experience buying them and have never owned one and have only fired other people's. My dad was a LEO for 30 years and is now training LEO in other countries for the UN. My Grandfather was a LEO for at least 40 years and also a gun smith.
    I find this humourous in a way (not to pick on you, it just struck me as funny as I've seen others say similar things in many other forums on different subjects) - my dad was a boilermaker and welder and taught welding. I spent a number of saturdays at work with him, watching him weld at home and on side jobs. That does not mean I can weld. Means I know more about welding than my wife perhaps, but I certainly can't teach it any better than she could. Her mother's a great cook...she's barely able to make sloppy joes. My son has been riding in cars all his life - but can't drive. Point being this type of 'experience' or 'education' means nothing, absolutely nothing, in any field.

  14. #38
    NCarrell40 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by prof_fate View Post
    Glad you're out shooting. I'm getting back into it after 20 some years busy with other aspects of life and got my son a BB gun this past summer and and starting with the safety training and such there. (he just turned 11)



    I find this humourous in a way (not to pick on you, it just struck me as funny as I've seen others say similar things in many other forums on different subjects) - my dad was a boilermaker and welder and taught welding. I spent a number of saturdays at work with him, watching him weld at home and on side jobs. That does not mean I can weld. Means I know more about welding than my wife perhaps, but I certainly can't teach it any better than she could. Her mother's a great cook...she's barely able to make sloppy joes. My son has been riding in cars all his life - but can't drive. Point being this type of 'experience' or 'education' means nothing, absolutely nothing, in any field.
    Your analogies are off. Watching someone weld is not the same as learning to weld. Riding in a car is not the same as learning to drive. Watching someone shoot is not the same as being taught proper gun safety habits, mechanics and good shooting technique. Once you learn any skill you should be able to teach it to someone else. Observing somebody perform a skill is not the same as learning the skill. If your dad would have taught you to weld, you would know how to weld. If you knew how to weld, you could teach someone else to weld.

    The point about my dad and grandpa, as I already stated in another post, is that I was trained by very competent instructors. Not that I learned gun safety through osmosis by simply being around them.

  15. #39
    prof_fate is offline Member
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    Sorry if I didn't read it the way you intended it.

    It came across to me like this" I grew up with guys with guns so that means i'm an expert" - you never mentioned they trained you, taught you, spent time at the range with you. My take it would be more like "Son, this is a gun. It's dangerous. I need it for work. Stay away from it" (based on what I was told when young by relatives with guns in the house, based on my wife's instructions to our kids, etc).

    In today's society way way way too many folks are under the impression they can do anything with no knowledge training or experience at all. SNL did a skit about this very thing in a recent episode Saturday Night Live - You Can Do Anything - Video - http://www.nbc.com

    Having spent the past 30 years in car/motorcycle repair and now photography trust me, I run into TONS of folks that think they know everythihng just because they grew up around it or it looks easy when observing an expert do it.

    I've also learned over the years that an strong reaction to a statement means it hits close to home. You reacted very strongly to my statement. So that to me says there's a lot of truth in it. Sorry, but my perception is my reality.

  16. #40
    NCarrell40 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by prof_fate View Post
    Sorry if I didn't read it the way you intended it.

    It came across to me like this" I grew up with guys with guns so that means i'm an expert" - you never mentioned they trained you, taught you, spent time at the range with you.
    Here's what I wrote in that post, with the pertinent words bolded:

    Quote Originally Posted by NCarrell40
    I was brought up around just about every kind of legally owned gun and was taught very extensively on how to safely use and own them.
    You can have whatever opinion you would like to have. I'm not sure what I wrote that you interpreted as a 'strong reaction', but it doesn't really matter. This has gotten a bit off topic. Perhaps I could ask another question to get it back on topic.

    I want to get some good steel plinking targets for .22 caliber. I've done a bit of research and I bought a little one the other day locally for $30 that has three targets (small, medium and large) hanging from a horizontal bar. It's been fun but am looking for more. Does anyone have any online suggestions of good deals on those? I want to get a dueling tree at some point when we add our second hand gun to our collection, but that will be a month or two.

  17. #41
    scooter's Avatar
    scooter is offline Supporting Member - Legally Armed Scooter Trash
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  18. #42
    sgms is offline Member
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    Outstanding day from the sounds of it. Bet there will be a lot more memories made with that pistol, keep them safe and have fun.

  19. #43
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Actually, my experience has been that the very best learning occurs when you are teaching someone else.
    It focusses your attention on the details, and makes you "get it right the first time."
    I was a portrait photographer for many years, but it was not until I taught photography (adult education) that I formalized and verbalized many of the things that I did intuitively. This reinforces the knowledge. So I agree that teaching makes you better at what you do. I don't know if the "get it right the first time" is the reason though.

  20. #44
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    "It focusses your attention on the details," is the reason.

  21. #45
    NCarrell40 is offline Junior Member
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    I just thought I would add to this thread an update on the gun I purchased in case anyone might be considering it, the Colt 1911 .22LR (apparently made by Umarex, and Walther is in the mix somewhere as well).

    So far, we have put about 2,000 rounds through it. The first day, we had two failure to ejects, using cheapo Federal American Eagle ammo that was pretty old. The gun has yet to have a single issue (Failure to Eject, Failure to Load, Stove Pipe, misfire etc.) using CCI Minimags or the Federal 40gr HV that come in packs of 100. The Federal Bulk pack (I think it's 36 or 38 grain) has had 2 misfires out of 525 rounds and one stove pipe.

    Overall it's performed admirably. Though I haven't shot it from a bench rest to see what kind of groups it can throw out, I can say that I can hit what I'm aiming at pretty consistently. From my little plinking target at 15 yds to pop cans at 30-40 yards to paper plates at 50-75 yards. We've been having a blast and my boys are getting quite good themselves.

    I would recommend this gun to anyone looking for a fun .22LR pistol. It's great.

  22. #46
    robertcseg is offline Junior Member
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    I have read with interest the replies to the question of what to get to introduce himself and his sons to shooting. Unless I may have missed it not one person mentioned revolvers. Older S&W revolvers in excellent condition can be purchased in the 300-400 range. The old guns are heavy enough to shoot 38spl comfortably assuming that is the cal gun was made for They are very accurate. I have never heard a revolver complain of a FTF, FTE a stovepipe or clearing a malfunction.

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