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  1. #1
    inssane is offline Junior Member
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    Trespassers - To kill or To wound?

    First of all, hello. I am a beginner with handguns, although I have fired a variety of guns over the past several years.

    Being that I live in Chicago, I do not own a gun currently. Plus, they just started giving permits to people to own handguns here this year.
    I do enjoy going to the range and practicing, and really having fun and enjoying challenging myself.

    I plan on owning a handgun in the near future, but with my current proficiency and lack of formal "in class" training, I will not own one until I am extremely comfortable. Especially in regards to acknowledging a dangerous intruder versus a "good guy". It seems to me that this is a skill I must master before placing a gun, safely, in my home.

    Sorry for being long winded. The true question, and correct me if I missed a thread on this, but:
    If an intruder breaks and enters your premises, what is the proper procedure? Some might simply fire to kill a person with no weapon or thread (catburglar ie.) I truly understand that if my gun is drawn, I have to accept the fact that I may have to shoot to kill an intruder.

    So, is my thinking way off or am I pretty close?
    Thanks for indulging a new person's curiosity.
    Nick

  2. #2
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    welcome to the forum....

    first of all i suggest that you google and read the statutes covering the use of deadly force in the city in which you reside ..... then you read the statutes covering the "castle doctrine" for your city and illinois (to make sure they are the same) and then make sure that you understand everything that you just read.

  3. #3
    inssane is offline Junior Member
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    I see, that's great.
    Now to wade through IL documents that I am sure aren't organized, ha.
    Thanks

  4. #4
    inssane is offline Junior Member
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    Hmm, very very interesting.
    For others if interested
    Castle doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And this is a catch all.
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf

    So what are other people's thoughts (if laws didn't apply) would you kill on sight or assess?
    N

  5. #5
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    please read the actual statutes, wiki might be ok, but it is a synopsis ..... read the laws

  6. #6
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by inssane View Post

    So what are other people's thoughts (if laws didn't apply) would you kill on sight or assess?
    N
    this line of thinking needs to mature a little....

    kill on sight leaves no room for mistake.... sleep walking kid from next door, alzheimer patient returning to where they once lived, harmless drunk.....i would regret killing them all.....

    of course this doesnt apply to the legit bad guy.... his right to life is forfeit the moment he crosses my threshold and becomes a threat to me or mine.

  7. #7
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Every city, county, and state in the US has its very own website, on which you will find, written out in full, every law now in force.
    Every one of these laws is cataloged in an index appropriate to the city, county, or state. They are organized both by topic and by "key word" (for instance, "guns").

    If that fails you, you have the absolute right, as a citizen or resident of your city, county, and state, to freely use your county's law library. There you will find not only all of these laws, but also all the appeals-court cases which pertain to or have modified these laws.
    You do not have to be a lawyer, in order to research and understand these laws and cases. You need have only a modicum of patience.
    Further, there is at least one law librarian present at all times, who will help you in your quest.

    Do a little research. You will be surprised at the answers you will find.

  8. #8
    45Sidekick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedDeBearFrmHell View Post
    this line of thinking needs to mature a little....

    kill on sight leaves no room for mistake.... sleep walking kid from next door, alzheimer patient returning to where they once lived, harmless drunk.....i would regret killing them all.....

    of course this doesnt apply to the legit bad guy.... his right to life is forfeit the moment he crosses my threshold and becomes a threat to me or mine.
    exactly correct, even in the state of alabama, where gun laws are not nearly as strict as chicago, it IS NOT acceptable to shoot someone on sight, period. If the perp gives you sound reason to believe that they intend you or your family harm or that they are going for a weapon is the only instance where you can take such a shot. I personally would never want to be put in said predicament, but the world is crazy out there, so be prepared for for something so unfortunate. once they force their way into your home, thats at your descrestion to neutralize a threat up to deadly force IF and only IF you have reason to believe that they intend you or your family harm and/or has a weapon that you believe is there. now theres some crazys around here that believe you can shoot at someone if you have a "no trespassing" sign posted, but thats still not true. thats were you notify the proper authorities about a trespasser and let them do their job. now on your property (around here) you can detain a suspect with force equal only to the force that they are resisting with, up to deadly force (if they pull a gun or something) you have full freedom to defend yourself but dont cross the line, or you'll be looking at some serious prison time.

  9. #9
    loper is offline Junior Member
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    Something to take into consideration:

    In an immediate life and death situation, you're going to have enough to do making the shoot/don't shoot decision. Don't waste reaction time by trying to make some hollywood shot.
    Just do the best you can to put them center of mass until the threat ends.
    If that means you shot and missed, and the bad guy turns to run away, well that's it. You don't want to be in front of a jury for shooting a fleeing man in the back.
    If that means you shoot and hit center of mass and the bad guy dies, then you survived. You'll probably still face a judge, but you were defending yourself.
    I would emphasize target discrimination, more than trying to limit the ammount of force you should use.

    But, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a soldier, and a gun guy.

  10. #10
    45Sidekick's Avatar
    45Sidekick is offline Member
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    theres definately going to be an investigation if you shoot someone, now that's why you must consider what kinda time youll face if you shoot someone walking up your yard. you are correct target discrimination is the end all be all for such a situation. but you dont wanna sit in a cell for 10years because you shot someone who had a flat tire and needed to use a phone, since your porch light was on, he went to your house first.

  11. #11
    loper is offline Junior Member
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    True, you're going to be under some close scrutiny, no matter what.
    That's why I stress target discrimination, shoot/don't shoot, and threat.
    I was starting from the point of a threat being posed. I assume the OP isn't going to go off the deep end, based on having asked the question in the first place.

  12. #12
    45Sidekick's Avatar
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    i know where youre coming from, but i assumed he was asking about the legality of shooting on sight. either way, my advice stems from a good saying "think like a lawyer, or prepare to get @#$%^& by one" but your right if a threat is posed then you need to handle it, you can quickly determine a threat and your reaction. if they act like theyre reaching for a weapon, and you shoot them, and they had no weapon. then it comes down to them posing a threat, and you assuming that the perp had a weapon, since you dont know what they have or dont have.

  13. #13
    loper is offline Junior Member
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    Yeah, it's tough to think clearly enough, quickly enough, and be absolutely certain you're right.
    As much as I like to shoot, it ain't my first response, and it's not what I push with students.
    I try to teach people how to stay out of those situations, and how to make the right decision if they get in a tight spot.
    Then I teach them how to put rounds center of mass if things go all pear-shaped.
    Good discussion!

  14. #14
    45Sidekick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loper View Post
    Yeah, it's tough to think clearly enough, quickly enough, and be absolutely certain you're right.
    As much as I like to shoot, it ain't my first response, and it's not what I push with students.
    I try to teach people how to stay out of those situations, and how to make the right decision if they get in a tight spot.
    Then I teach them how to put rounds center of mass if things go all pear-shaped.
    Good discussion!
    very true adrenaline takes over, shaky, nervous anticipation, it goes on. i totally agree you gotta try to keep your cool, but retain your fundamentals on shot placement and neutralization. you never know how you'll react to a situation that has no script, so quick thinking is a must for this kind of stressful situation. as I'm sure you know, being a firearms trainer, that you dont need to go overboard, or overthink. one will land you in prison, and the other will possibly put you in a coffin. so a healthy medium needs to be found, i try to keep up with the legality, so i know it and know it quick, and has a big factor to how you need to handle certain situations.

  15. #15
    loper is offline Junior Member
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    Yep, and you throw in the fact that it's probably the first deadly force situation someone has ever faced, and the mental aspect just gets tougher.
    I went thru it a lot with troops on the ground, and I always tried to make sure my guys were well trained. With our rules of engagement, target descrimination was critical. Much tighter than castle doctrine, actually.
    Dump some innocent citizen in the middle of a threat situation, out of the blue, and they really need to have their head on straight. Discourse like this helps, I think, because you can think it out and do your "what ifs" ahead of time.

  16. #16
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    All the advice given is superior to mine, read the specific laws for your area

    This question is very SITUATIONAL, meaning you can flip it using what ifs and possibilities
    BUT my general opinion

    I am PRESUPPOSING things here:
    1) BG is hostile (i.e. has a weapon, unusual threatening behavior, verbally confrontational, etc)
    2) I have done everything I can to try to handle the situation with talk and other methods
    3) BG is IN MY HOUSE, not outside, not near my place, they are INSIDE and physically closing in on me

    Aka, Im going to shoot, anywhere. If I kill the target good, all I will initially care about (and have time for) is to hit the guy somewhere. Peference to the kill shot, dead cant talk about how they broke into your home "on mistake" or "to get out of the rain." Often criminals will try to flip the script to make YOU look like the bad guy. If they aren't breathing and you are in YOUR HOME, then the prosecution has a difficult trial ahead of them proving some person just HAPPENED to enter your home.

    Hesitation is the cost of you and all your loved ones dying because there is a possibility that the unknown intruder entering your house is innocent by some standards. Know why I don't go into strange peoples places of residence? Cause theres a possibility when i go in I wont come out, law of the jungle...

  17. #17
    loper is offline Junior Member
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    "Know why I don't go into strange peoples places of residence? Cause theres a possibility when i go in I wont come out, law of the jungle..."

    Exactly. there are only two people with any business entering my house at night, me and my wife. If somebody else is inside my house, I'm going to drop him.

    That might not fit other people's situations however. Kids with friends over, etc.

    Outside the house, in public areas, is where I say decisions are important.

    In any case, getting back to the OP's question, if I am forced to shoot someone, I will not be concerned for their life.

  18. #18
    BeefyBeefo's Avatar
    BeefyBeefo is offline Senior Member
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    To stop the threat.

  19. #19
    45Sidekick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loper View Post
    "Know why I don't go into strange peoples places of residence? Cause theres a possibility when i go in I wont come out, law of the jungle..."

    Exactly. there are only two people with any business entering my house at night, me and my wife. If somebody else is inside my house, I'm going to drop him.

    That might not fit other people's situations however. Kids with friends over, etc.

    Outside the house, in public areas, is where I say decisions are important.

    In any case, getting back to the OP's question, if I am forced to shoot someone, I will not be concerned for their life.
    very true, im not going to lie about it, if your trying to beat down my door and the dead bolt wont stop you, i have something that will(spoiler alert: its 12ga 00buck) I'm not gonna lay down for anyone who is on my property that is unwanted. if that means holding them at gunpoint until the police remove them or blast them if they get the least bit hostile. because i intend on some douchebag perp to be in the ground before i am, in such a case.

  20. #20
    claimbuster is offline Junior Member
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    Very easy where I live, when an intruder crosses the threshold and enters my home, hunting season is open!

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