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  1. #1
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    new handgun research

    Ok starting the homework for my cc/home protection. I have a couple handguns already. Stretching from one extreme to the other. .44magSRH9.5 and a single 6 .22/.22mag... Yeah I know. But I want a semiauto I know a little. Like the9mm is a very fast round..and the .45 is hard hitting round. Now keep in mind here. The average guy isnt going to stick around when you start shooting...To see what caliber you are using. With todays ammo spectrum there is enough manstoppers out there for the 9mm. Is there a valid reason to stand the expense of the .45. The 9mm is cheap to shoot . And shot placement is everything. coach me along here and help me decide.
    Drop

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  3. #2
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    [QUOTE=EDIT Is there a valid reason to stand the expense of the .45.[/QUOTE]

    I like both rounds, fast little 9mms and slow fat .45ACPs. Both will do the job. I have a handgun for every room so 9mm, 45ACP, .38spl., .357mag., .44mag/spl., I trust my life to them all. My "valid" reason for having a .45 is because I enjoy shooting it. That said, I have two 9mms and don't plan to replace them with .45s. Liive a little, get one of each!
    Eli

  4. #3
    smlranger is offline Junior Member
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    No expert here, for sure but I agree with the previous response.

    I have a .38/.357 revolver, two .380 semi's, a .40 XD and a new 9mm Ruger SR9c. I like shooting all of them and feel that with defensive rounds placed effectively, they can all do the job. However, for me the 9mm is the most fun to shoot and the ammo is less expensive (other than my Buckmark .22 which is also fun to shoot but, obviously, not a defensive weapon...unless you are being attacked by a squirrel ).

  5. #4
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    [QUOTE=smlranger;228578EDIT: However, for me the 9mm is the most fun to shoot and the ammo is less expensive (other than my Buckmark .22 which is also fun to shoot but, obviously, not a defensive weapon...unless you are being attacked by a squirrel ).[/QUOTE]

    Hey that Buckmark beats a sharp stick! Nobody wants a face full of Stingers, no suh!
    Eli

  6. #5
    ronmail65 is offline Member
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    I got a 9mm and keep a magazine at home filled with Mag Safe defensive ammo. I personally like the 9mm because I shoot a little better with it, I practice more (because it's less expensive), and I like the idea that many 9mm guns have high capacity mags.

    That's just my opinion as a relatively new shooter.

  7. #6
    HK Dan is offline Member
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    Honest injun--talk to any trauma doc and they will tell you that they cannot identify the caliber of a pistol by looking at the wound track in a victim. If they don't find the bullet, they don't know. What's that tell ya? 9mm is .45, is .40, is 10mm.

    The .45 ACP uses identical powder charges to 9mm and .40. It's no more hard hitting than anything else. Now. I'd go with a bigger caliber given the choice, but I feel no less defended when carrying a 9mm. Ge tthe niggest one that you can shoot quickly and accurately.

    Dan

  8. #7
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    All Good Responses ...

    All very good responses, but more important to me than caliber is how the gun fits and feels in my hands, and how much confidence I have in myself when I'm holding it. Regardless if it is a 45ACP 1911, one of my many 9mms' or a .357 GP-100 if I don't have to look for safety levers and release mechanisms and if it feels like an extension of my hand, then I know it'll do it's job if I do mine. Go heft as many guns as you can, and see which one speaks to you. THAT is the one you want.

  9. #8
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliWolfe View Post
    ... I have a handgun for every room so ...
    Eli
    I'm looking for a nice romantic firearm for the bedroom. Which one did you choose?

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    I'm looking for a nice romantic firearm for the bedroom. Which one did you choose?
    Mine is a Mossberg 500, all black, 20" barrel, eight rounds of 00 Buck. She's just lovely to behold.

    But, I have a method of "hiding" her, while keeping her still completely accessible.
    After all, if I was caught fondling her, it would put a total damper on any of my other romantic interests' ardor.

  11. #10
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanP_from_AZ View Post
    Mine is a Mossberg 500, all black, 20" barrel, eight rounds of 00 Buck. She's just lovely to behold.

    But, I have a method of "hiding" her, while keeping her still completely accessible.
    After all, if I was caught fondling her, it would put a total damper on any of my other romantic interests' ardor.
    The problem with Mossbergs is that they need Viagra in order to shoot straight.

  12. #11
    j4l
    j4l is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12ptdroptine View Post
    Ok starting the homework for my cc/home protection. I have a couple handguns already. Stretching from one extreme to the other. .44magSRH9.5 and a single 6 .22/.22mag... Yeah I know. But I want a semiauto I know a little. Like the9mm is a very fast round..and the .45 is hard hitting round. Now keep in mind here. The average guy isnt going to stick around when you start shooting...To see what caliber you are using. With todays ammo spectrum there is enough manstoppers out there for the 9mm. Is there a valid reason to stand the expense of the .45. The 9mm is cheap to shoot . And shot placement is everything. coach me along here and help me decide.
    Drop
    A couple of very good reasons, actually, or the .45.
    1) there's some very valid reasons why nearly every Law Enforcement agency AND the military are running as fast as they can, as far as they can from the 9mm.( current spec for the next military-issue sidearm is .45acp ) It fails. Utterly. No matter what load is chambered.

    2) Despite all the myths to contrary- .45 actually has less felt-recoil, and a smoother recoil than 9mm most of the time.

    3) Size, especially in hi-cap .45's folks feel the grip is too large,etc. It depends on the pistol.
    Taurus 845 has 12-round capacity, but is only 2/8th's of an inch wider/thicker than a Raven .25.
    (pics to prove it in my review in the Taurus section)

    4) Not sure where folks are buying their ammo from, but every store near me (8 of em) the price is the same for 9mm/40/.45 and even .50AE in almost every premium JHP load. -at most a 1-2 $ difference.

  13. #12
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    I'm looking for a nice romantic firearm for the bedroom. Which one did you choose?
    LOL...well, my bedside gun is a 3" bbl. (yeah I know, a little SHORT) S@W 686+ 7 shot .357 mag. with custom "WOOD" grips.
    Works for me, though I think my Beretta92 has sexxier lines.
    Eli

  14. #13
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    [QUOTE=j4l; It fails. Utterly. No matter what load is chambered. [/QUOTE]
    The 9mm fails utterly? Surely you jest, or are you looking for someone to rise to your Hula Popper?
    Eli

  15. #14
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    A couple of very good reasons, actually, or the .45.

    1) there's some very valid reasons why nearly every Law Enforcement agency AND the military are running as fast as they can, as far as they can from the 9mm.( current spec for the next military-issue sidearm is .45acp ) It fails. Utterly. No matter what load is chambered.
    It fails utterly? Could that be because a large portion of troops aren't even ISSUED pistols. Riflemen are tasked with being riflemen, not pistolero's.

  16. #15
    j4l
    j4l is offline Junior Member
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    Or you could see for yourself. Check out any emergency room on any given night..or ask the folks who are abandoning the round en masse. Street results have spoken for themselves. But if you prefer to find out the hard way, so be it. Natural Selection is a wonderful thing to see in action sometimes...

  17. #16
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Or you could see for yourself. Check out any emergency room on any given night..or ask the folks who are abandoning the round en masse. Street results have spoken for themselves. But if you prefer to find out the hard way, so be it. Natural Selection is a wonderful thing to see in action sometimes...
    OK, thanks for the info on the 9mm. As you know, the Beretta 92 has been in service worldwide for 25 years or so. With the new information you have provided I am going to let folks around the world know the truth! May take awhile to get them all squared away, and they will no doubt be doing a whole bunch of grave digging in Mexico and Colombia to find out what bullet REALLY killed all them folk. Info from Wikipedia, good as what you got I reckon.

    Albania: Special forces
    Algeria
    Bangladesh: Special Security Force
    Brazil: Brazilian Armed Forces
    Chile
    Colombia
    France: Standard issue pistol of the French Military, designated PAMAS G1 (Pistolet Automatique de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Étienne, "automatic pistol of the Saint Etienne manufacture") Also used by the Gendarmerie Nationale.
    India
    Indonesia: Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group and Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group.
    Iran
    Iraq: Issued to units of the Iraqi Armed Forces (model 92FS)
    Italy: Italian Armed Forces and various police forces
    Jordan
    Kuwait
    Luxembourg: Unité Spéciale de la Police of the Grand Ducal Police (92F)
    Malaysia: Royal Malaysian Police (Pasukan Gerakan Khas)
    Mexico: Various branches of the armed forces
    Morocco[4]
    Nigeria[4]
    Pakistan: Special Service Group (SSG) of the Pakistan Army.[15]
    Peru[4]
    Slovenia: Slovenian Armed Forces (since 1991) and police.[16]
    South Africa: Produced under license since 1992 as the Vektor Z88, and used by the South African Police.[17]
    Sudan[4]
    Turkey[4]
    United States: In service with the US Armed Forces since 1985.[8][11] Also used by the US Border Patrol and US Immigration and Naturalization Service.[4] The 96D variant was formerly used by the Maryland State Police,[18] but replaced with the Beretta Px4 Storm pistol in May 2008.[19]
    Venezuela[4]

  18. #17
    j4l
    j4l is offline Junior Member
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    M-16/M-4 has also been in our service for a long, long time. Doesnt mean it was a wise choice. Just means Stoner/Colt had a lot of support,in D.C. and it was cheaper to keep dishing out the junk.

    But -let's see why DoD is one again having second thoughts about both the 9mm and the -16/-4's....

    DoD didnt kill the program because of the round or the platform-it came down to $$ and poltics-nothing more. BUT.

    Joint Combat Pistol (JCP)

    The US Special Operations Command [USSOCOM] issued a solicitation in August 2005 to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program (which absorbed an earlier Future Handgun System program) will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement. The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation. Two configurations of the pistol will be required. One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.

    The Combat Pistol System consists of:[B] a Caliber .45 pistol [/B]and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.

    The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years. The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data.

    The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each. Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror. Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing.

    The JCP shall have a Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS) of 2000 rounds (Threshold) and 5000 rounds (Objective) firing A475 and A483 ammunition. The JCP shall have a Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) of 5000 rounds (T) and 10,000 rounds (O) firing A475 and A483 ammunition. The weapon shall function reliably when operated in extreme environments.

    When fired from a rest, at a range of 50 meters, the mean radius of a 10-shot group fired from the JCP shall not be greater than A) 3.15 inches or B)1.8 inches over baseline ammunition performance, whichever is less (T). Baseline ammunition performance is defined as the average mean radius plus two sample standard deviations of three 10-shot groups fired from a test barrel at 50m.

    The JCP shall have a service life of 20,000 rounds (T), greater than 20,000 (O), using A475 .45 ACP Ball, and/or A483 .45 ACP match ammunition. The JCP should be capable of a service life of 20,000 rounds when firing 5% AA18 .45 +P ammunition (O). Receiver service life shall be defined as a receiver that is at the end of its usable life cycle.

    Notice the utter lack of specification for 9mm in the above anywhere...instead they choose to revert to the .45. Lot of good reasons for it.


    Same goes for the -16/-4 Jam-a-Matic series.

    "The United States Army is looking for a better rifle. It is asking manufacturers to come up with a new weapon to replace the M4 carbine, an upgraded version of the famous M16 - the rifle carried by American soldiers for the last 50 years.


    "We're challenging industry to develop the next generation carbine," program manager Col. Doug Tamilio said in a statement. "We're looking forward to the results."


    In a written statement, the Army said it hopes to come up with a weapon with "greater degrees of accuracy, reliability, durability and maintainability."

    Manufacturers will submit designs and go through competitive testing before the final selection is made. New rifles won't go out to soldiers on the front lines for at least three years.


    For retired Major General Bob Scales, an Army historian, it is a competition that is about 40 years overdue. The M16 and the newer M4, he says, have been plagued with problems. They're known to jam and overheat in the gritty conditions of the frontlines.

    According to Scales, after action reports from the 2008 battle of Wanat - where nine Americans were killed when their remote Afghan combat outpost was nearly overrun by enemy - U.S. soldiers were found dead, slumped over jammed rifles.

    "We would never accept the second best jet fighter or aircraft carrier," Scales says. The Pentagon's acquisition system "is all focused on buying big ticket items" while hundreds of thousands of soldiers shoulder rifles with few if any upgrades.


    "Slightly more than 40 years ago my unit was butchered by elements from the North Vietnamese 29th Regiment," Scales wrote in a recent article for the Armed Forces Journal. He contrasted his Vietnam experience with the fighting in the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan -- combat which was brought to the big screen in the film "Restrepo."


    "Same lousy rifle (M16/M4)," Scales wrote, "Same helicopter (CH-47), same machine gun (M2), same young men trying to deal with the fear of violent death."


    "Seared in my brain," he continued, "is the image of a young soldier at Fire Base Restrepo hacking away at hard clay and granite trying frantically to dig a fighting position. The U.S. is spending more than $300 billion on a new fighter plane . . . Why after nine years of war can't we give a close-combat soldier a better way to dig a hole."


    While there's no indication the Army has any plans for a new shovel, efforts to come up with a new M16 are sure to be closely watched. The rifle may not be a big ticket item, but soldiers have a visceral tie to their weapon. It keeps them alive in close combat."

  19. #18
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Or you could see for yourself. Check out any emergency room on any given night..or ask the folks who are abandoning the round en masse. Street results have spoken for themselves. But if you prefer to find out the hard way, so be it. Natural Selection is a wonderful thing to see in action sometimes...

    I like what you did there. Rather than address the fact that most troops aren't even issued pistols, you just shimmy on to something else. You point out that the military is running from the round as fast as possible, yet you say that the military is not going to make the change due to "$$ and politics". Could you make up your mind? Please?

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Dan View Post
    The .45 ACP uses identical powder charges to 9mm and .40. It's no more hard hitting than anything else.
    Dan
    A bit of an oversimplification about the powder. Sure there may be some overlap, but each cartridge is going to behave differently for a given powder weight with different bullets. Go to alliant's site and compare the different Power Pistol charge weights.
    Shoot a pin match with 115 9mm loads vs. 230 gr .45 loads and tell me there is no difference. Mass/Inertia matters.

  21. #20
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Or you could see for yourself. Check out any emergency room on any given night..or ask the folks who are abandoning the round en masse. Street results have spoken for themselves. But if you prefer to find out the hard way, so be it. Natural Selection is a wonderful thing to see in action sometimes...
    You have stated that the 9mm FAILS Utterly as a handgun cartridge. You site "street" information and unknown physicians as proof. Well sir, in the recent shooting involving Congresswoman Gifford, a clip full of 9mm fired spray and pray by a deranged drug addict totally destroys your pet "theory". That the Congresswoman survived is a miracle of sorts, but had she been a BG, her wound was a one shot stop. I am also willing to bet that the shooter used ball ammo, a 9mm+P hollowpoint might well have been fatal.

    So as for your "streetsmarts" best rethink it. In the meantime, here is a list of folks you can't call to your defense as unfortunately the are now deseased, killed by the TOTALLY ineffective 9mm. You might consider an apology to these innocents, as I apologize for using them to illustrate a point. Please don't try to disect this shooting into some convoluted "proof" that the 9 won't kill folks. The verdict is allready in. Game over.
    Eli

    May they rest in peace.

    Six people were killed in the attack;[101] all but Christina-Taylor Green died at the scene of the shooting.[102] The deceased are (in alphabetical order by surname):

    1.Christina-Taylor Green, 9, of Tucson.[103] Green was accompanied to the meeting by neighbor Susan Hileman.[35][104] Born on September 11, 2001, she had appeared in the book Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11 (page 41).[105][106][107] She was the granddaughter of former Major League Baseball player and manager Dallas Green.[106][108]
    2.Dorothy "Dot" Morris, 76, a retired secretary from Oro Valley; wife of George, who was wounded.[101][109]
    3.John Roll, 63, chief judge of the U.S. District Court for Arizona, named to the federal bench by President George H. W. Bush in 1991.[35][110][111][112]
    4.Phyllis Schneck, 79, homemaker from Tucson.[101][113]
    5.Dorwan Stoddard, 76, retired construction worker, from a gunshot wound to the head; his wife Mavy was wounded.[101][114]
    6.Gabriel "Gabe" Zimmerman, 30, community outreach director for Giffords,[6][35] and a member of Giffords' staff since 2006.[115]
    Thirteen people were wounded in the attack; a fourteenth person was injured at the scene, but was determined not to have been shot. Gabrielle Giffords and two other members of her staff were among the surviving gunshot victims.[3]

  22. #21
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    I used to carry a Beretta .25. I think it held 7 or 8 rounds. I'm pretty sure I could kill someone with one. We used to practice by "lacing up". That is, first shot to the sternum, second shot 2" higher, and each additional shot 2" higher until all 8 rounds are spent. So in addition to the two shots to the sternum and 2 shots to the throat you'd get 2 or 3 to the head too.

    Now a 9mm is not a .25, and it carries a lot more rounds (excellent for indiscriminate spraying all over the place), but for someone who practices and shoots well, it means a double tap to the vital area of the torso and a single tap to the head for a sure stop. A .45 will get this done with fewer shots. If you have only one assailant, then the 9mm will serve you well. But a .40, .45, .357, 10mm will end a fight with fewer rounds spent, and if you are facing multiple assailants that means you can switch targets quicker, and end the threat sooner.

    I would take the .40, .357, .45 or the 10mm before I would consider a 9mm (oh, hey! The FBI agrees with me too!).

  23. #22
    j4l
    j4l is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    I used to carry a Beretta .25. I think it held 7 or 8 rounds. I'm pretty sure I could kill someone with one. We used to practice by "lacing up". That is, first shot to the sternum, second shot 2" higher, and each additional shot 2" higher until all 8 rounds are spent. So in addition to the two shots to the sternum and 2 shots to the throat you'd get 2 or 3 to the head too.

    Now a 9mm is not a .25, and it carries a lot more rounds (excellent for indiscriminate spraying all over the place), but for someone who practices and shoots well, it means a double tap to the vital area of the torso and a single tap to the head for a sure stop. A .45 will get this done with fewer shots. If you have only one assailant, then the 9mm will serve you well. But a .40, .45, .357, 10mm will end a fight with fewer rounds spent, and if you are facing multiple assailants that means you can switch targets quicker, and end the threat sooner.

    I would take the .40, .357, .45 or the 10mm before I would consider a 9mm (oh, hey! The FBI agrees with me too!).
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    A couple of very good reasons, actually, or the .45.
    1) there's some very valid reasons why nearly every Law Enforcement agency AND the military are running as fast as they can, as far as they can from the 9mm.( current spec for the next military-issue sidearm is .45acp ) It fails. Utterly. No matter what load is chambered.
    As for military, they are "required" to use ball ammo. Not really a "great load", 9mm or .45 ACP.
    Given I have to use ball, I'd opt for a double-stack .45 ACP too.
    Back when the military "decided" in 1984, it wasn't so straightforward. Which do you want ?
    15 + 1 9mm ball (used by NATO and the rest of the world) ? Or 7 + 1 .45 ACP ball (U.S. only) ?

    As for LEO's, their bosses chase the "get on the band wagon" deal. Nothing wrong with "bigger".
    For law enforcement, I think the "bigger is better" trend is to .40 S&W, not .45 ACP.

    Compared to 9mm, the diameters are .40 vs. .38. We can all agree to disagree on what is important.
    Weight (grains) ? Diamenter (inches) ? Velocity (fps) ? Energy (lb-ft) ?
    There are thousands (millions ?) of dead gun nuts who wasted precious hours of their lifetimes on this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    . . .
    4) Not sure where folks are buying their ammo from, but every store near me (8 of em) the price is the same for 9mm/40/.45 and even .50AE in almost every premium JHP load. -at most a 1-2 $ difference.
    OK, pretty much true for your "premium JHP load".
    You neglected to mention prices of "target or practice" stuff. 9mm is cheaper by QUITE a bit than anything else.
    You DO practice, don't you ?

    OK folks, I need to stop "these replies".
    Everyone on the Internet knows that feeding a troll NEVER works.

  25. #24
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanP_from_AZ View Post
    As for military, they are "required" to use ball ammo. Not really a "great load", 9mm or .45 ACP. ...


    The FBI, however, does not have to use ball, and in fact was using hollow points in the famous Miami shootout. If I recall correctly they were Silvertips about 115 or 125 grain hollowpoints. The bullets were placed in the vital zones of the bad guys who conintured shooting ending up with, as I recall two dead FBI agents.

    A bullet in the vital zone has to stop the bad guy or it is inadequate.

    Since the bullets did hit the vital zone then ergo, the 9mm was inadequate. This was the finding of the FBI (and who am I to argue with the FBI?).

  26. #25
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    I just wanted to get some help... Not provide a place for some to go into a rant...

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