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  1. #21
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    I used to carry a Beretta .25. I think it held 7 or 8 rounds. I'm pretty sure I could kill someone with one. We used to practice by "lacing up". That is, first shot to the sternum, second shot 2" higher, and each additional shot 2" higher until all 8 rounds are spent. So in addition to the two shots to the sternum and 2 shots to the throat you'd get 2 or 3 to the head too.

    Now a 9mm is not a .25, and it carries a lot more rounds (excellent for indiscriminate spraying all over the place), but for someone who practices and shoots well, it means a double tap to the vital area of the torso and a single tap to the head for a sure stop. A .45 will get this done with fewer shots. If you have only one assailant, then the 9mm will serve you well. But a .40, .45, .357, 10mm will end a fight with fewer rounds spent, and if you are facing multiple assailants that means you can switch targets quicker, and end the threat sooner.

    I would take the .40, .357, .45 or the 10mm before I would consider a 9mm (oh, hey! The FBI agrees with me too!).

  2. #22
    j4l
    j4l is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    I used to carry a Beretta .25. I think it held 7 or 8 rounds. I'm pretty sure I could kill someone with one. We used to practice by "lacing up". That is, first shot to the sternum, second shot 2" higher, and each additional shot 2" higher until all 8 rounds are spent. So in addition to the two shots to the sternum and 2 shots to the throat you'd get 2 or 3 to the head too.

    Now a 9mm is not a .25, and it carries a lot more rounds (excellent for indiscriminate spraying all over the place), but for someone who practices and shoots well, it means a double tap to the vital area of the torso and a single tap to the head for a sure stop. A .45 will get this done with fewer shots. If you have only one assailant, then the 9mm will serve you well. But a .40, .45, .357, 10mm will end a fight with fewer rounds spent, and if you are facing multiple assailants that means you can switch targets quicker, and end the threat sooner.

    I would take the .40, .357, .45 or the 10mm before I would consider a 9mm (oh, hey! The FBI agrees with me too!).
    Exactly.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    A couple of very good reasons, actually, or the .45.
    1) there's some very valid reasons why nearly every Law Enforcement agency AND the military are running as fast as they can, as far as they can from the 9mm.( current spec for the next military-issue sidearm is .45acp ) It fails. Utterly. No matter what load is chambered.
    As for military, they are "required" to use ball ammo. Not really a "great load", 9mm or .45 ACP.
    Given I have to use ball, I'd opt for a double-stack .45 ACP too.
    Back when the military "decided" in 1984, it wasn't so straightforward. Which do you want ?
    15 + 1 9mm ball (used by NATO and the rest of the world) ? Or 7 + 1 .45 ACP ball (U.S. only) ?

    As for LEO's, their bosses chase the "get on the band wagon" deal. Nothing wrong with "bigger".
    For law enforcement, I think the "bigger is better" trend is to .40 S&W, not .45 ACP.

    Compared to 9mm, the diameters are .40 vs. .38. We can all agree to disagree on what is important.
    Weight (grains) ? Diamenter (inches) ? Velocity (fps) ? Energy (lb-ft) ?
    There are thousands (millions ?) of dead gun nuts who wasted precious hours of their lifetimes on this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    . . .
    4) Not sure where folks are buying their ammo from, but every store near me (8 of em) the price is the same for 9mm/40/.45 and even .50AE in almost every premium JHP load. -at most a 1-2 $ difference.
    OK, pretty much true for your "premium JHP load".
    You neglected to mention prices of "target or practice" stuff. 9mm is cheaper by QUITE a bit than anything else.
    You DO practice, don't you ?

    OK folks, I need to stop "these replies".
    Everyone on the Internet knows that feeding a troll NEVER works.

  4. #24
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanP_from_AZ View Post
    As for military, they are "required" to use ball ammo. Not really a "great load", 9mm or .45 ACP. ...


    The FBI, however, does not have to use ball, and in fact was using hollow points in the famous Miami shootout. If I recall correctly they were Silvertips about 115 or 125 grain hollowpoints. The bullets were placed in the vital zones of the bad guys who conintured shooting ending up with, as I recall two dead FBI agents.

    A bullet in the vital zone has to stop the bad guy or it is inadequate.

    Since the bullets did hit the vital zone then ergo, the 9mm was inadequate. This was the finding of the FBI (and who am I to argue with the FBI?).

  5. #25
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    I just wanted to get some help... Not provide a place for some to go into a rant...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12ptdroptine View Post
    I just wanted to get some help... Not provide a place for some to go into a rant...
    OK, let me try and get back to your request.
    Obviously we all have our own bias. Most are based on what we own. Justifies our choices, you know.

    Your first sentence, up top, long ago and far away.

    "Ok starting the homework for my cc/home protection. . ."

    If you are anywhere near a Cabela's, check out their ad inserted in yesterday's (Sat) newspapers.
    The front page has the new Ruger LC9 for $400. A bit below Ruger retail. None of my LGS have it yet.

    The Ruger is probably worth considering as a CCW. Should be a good gun at a really good price point.
    A bit larger than the current rash of "little-bitty" CCW guns (including Ruger LCP) in .380 Auto,.

    The LC9, or any of the "older" CCW 9mm's like Kahr and Kel-Tec could also work as a "house gun".
    Later, you might want "more gun" or at least one with more ammo capacity for your nightstand gun.

    Just an idea. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #27
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12ptdroptine View Post
    I just wanted to get some help... Not provide a place for some to go into a rant...
    With apologies...
    Eli

  8. #28
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    But dont let those with helpful information stop from posting

  9. #29
    j4l
    j4l is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    The FBI, however, does not have to use ball, and in fact was using hollow points in the famous Miami shootout. If I recall correctly they were Silvertips about 115 or 125 grain hollowpoints. The bullets were placed in the vital zones of the bad guys who conintured shooting ending up with, as I recall two dead FBI agents.

    A bullet in the vital zone has to stop the bad guy or it is inadequate.

    Since the bullets did hit the vital zone then ergo, the 9mm was inadequate. This was the finding of the FBI (and who am I to argue with the FBI?).
    And SF/Counter-Terror units are exempted from the FMJ limitation as well.

    "Compared to 9mm, the diameters are .40 vs. .38. We can all agree to disagree on what is important.
    Weight (grains) ? Diamenter (inches) ? Velocity (fps) ? Energy (lb-ft) ?"

    True. I never said the replacement-(.40) was an improvement. Just that folks ran like hell from the 9. It's like replacing a ham sandwich with..another ham sandwich, really..

  10. #30
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    I would sooner take a Kel-Tec single stack 9mm over the Ruger at this time. Kel-Tec has already ironed out the problems with the gun and it is reported to be very reliable. It is thinner an significantly lighter. It is cheaper. Spare parts for the gun are rediculously cheap. And there are already lots of holsters out there for CC.

    18 months from now the situation may well be different. By then Ruger will have ironed out any isssues they have; holsters will become available; and the price will have come down.

    But as of this date I would suggest the Kel-Tec over the Ruger.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    But as of this date I would suggest the Kel-Tec over the Ruger.
    Up above I mentioned the Cabela's weekend newspaper flyer.
    "If you are anywhere near a Cabela's, check out their ad inserted in yesterday's (Sat) newspapers.
    The front page has the new Ruger LC9 for $400. A bit below Ruger retail. None of my LGS have it yet."

    I called Cabela's. They had 12 LC9s in their Phoenix store. I drove 120 miles down the mountain to buy one.

    I fondled the LC9 (I didn't like the trigger) and the Kahr PM9. I drove 120 miles home with a Sig-Sauer P290 "First Edition". One of 2000.

    Lots of reasons. Long ago I learned to buy the "expensive toy" I wanted, and not buy for "good price".
    This "new Sig model" definitely qualifies on THAT score. It was NOT a "good price point".

    I think I'll start a new thread in the "General Semi-Auto" forum. This one is getting pretty tired from wrangling.

  12. #32
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    OK so now nobody wants to post anymore..... There is a wealth of information to be shared here... I finally bought one today... Post some more and I will tell you what I got....
    Drop

  13. #33
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliWolfe View Post
    With apologies...
    Eli
    No apologies needed.... just more information.... please
    drop

  14. #34
    zebramochaman is offline Member
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    I hope what I am about to contribute is not a repetition of what has already been posted, but I did not want to spend the time culling through some of the more lengthy replies.
    If you are considering a HD weapon you need to think about a few things. What is your living set-up?
    For me, I live in a single family house with neighbors within 75' on each side of my home. I also live on a busy road about 75' from my front door.
    You not only need to consider the best stopping power for your SD weapon, but what will be the consequences of using it.
    If I had a home invasion coming through the front door, I would need to consider where my bullets would wind up if I did not hit my intended target. Shooting intruders through the front door could easily result in a motorist being shot if I missed. Shooting to either side, I might wind up injuring or killing one of my neighbors. Did I mention that there are three other family members living in our home?
    For me, I prefer a shotgun with #4 shot. I own a whole lot of other, more powerful guns that I would not be comfortable shooting at home.
    Of course if you live in the country and do not have these kind of issues your choice might be different.

  15. #35
    12ptdroptine is offline Junior Member
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    I went ahead and bought a .45. It is a Kimber Gold MatchII I probably spent 2 much money but what the heck... I own it now. I have 2 more days waiting period ant then I can go get it. Hope I like it as much as I think I will
    Drop

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