Originally Posted by as-of-now

Hello everyone I am just out of a military service, and I now live in the San Francisco bay area. I'm looking at purchasing a handgun for personal protection/home safety (plus time in the range), and don't really know where to turn. I wish I could just go for an M-4, because that's what I know and what I'm comfortable with, but I'd say a handgun is the way I'm headed.

I live with my girlfriend, and I want something that she will have an easy time firing as well, which is why I'm relatively set on a 9mm, as opposed to a .40 cal. The velocities are roughly the same, from what I understand, and the.40 doesn't really do all that much more damage. That said, it's the accuracy and ease of firing multiple successive rounds for both myself and my girlfriend that I have the 9mm in mind.

I want something relatively compact and (preferably) with a polymer frame. Money, unfortunately is an issue. I'd like to have a limit of 600 dollars, but I'll spend more if I can find something I love.

Reliability and Accuracy are KEY!!!

That said, I have to love the look of the gun, which is why I'm straying from the glock. I've been looking at a few guns in particular. First off, I love the Jericho (baby eagle) polymer compact. Also, the Walther p99 is a great looking gun (never held it though). And I've heard great things about the SIG's - I was thinking maybe a p229 or 239 (don't really know the difference) or a p250 (which I've heard mixed things about).

I would appreciate any info on the handguns I just mentioned - reviews, comparisons, opinions on which are best, etc.

Also, if there are other guns that I didn't mention that you think might fit the bill, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your time an patience in dealing with a handgun newb....

Well first off...

"The Best" is a relative term, only you will decide what is best for you. Everyone gets hung up on "the best" There is no such thing, so stop looking for it right of the bat. If you ask 20 different people what's best, be ready for 20 different answers.

Second, don't discount the Glock due to looks, that's silly. Looking pretty won't make it function any better, just find some of us disgruntled Kimber owners.

Third, you've almost priced yourself out of the Sigs unless you go certified pre-owned (not a bad idea) the 229 and 239 are two totally different guns, the 229 is a double stack the 239 is a single stack. You can go to Sig's website and see the differences.

Holster selection for the Baby Eagle is smaller than the selection for more common guns, so if you decide you want to carry it later on it will be an issue.

I want something relatively compact and (preferably) with a polymer frame. Money, unfortunately is an issue. I'd like to have a limit of 600 dollars, but I'll spend more if I can find something I love.

If it wasn't for the fact that you rule it out later, I would've suggested the Glock 19, while some find it ugly, it's still a hard package to beat. It's not exactly my cup of tea, but it's a fabulous starting point in finding out what you like and what you don't.

Reliability and Accuracy are KEY!!!

Unless you've been shooting pistols for a long, long time. Most if not all mid-tier guns are going to shoot relatively the same in the accuracy dept. Most peolple that complain of inaccurate guns need to spend less time on the internet posting about it and more time at the range with a knowledgeable person and find out what they're doing wrong and correct it.

That said, I have to love the look of the gun, which is why I'm straying from the glock.

As stated, looks don't make gun. But hey, it's your gun you can buy what you want.

I've been looking at a few guns in particular. First off, I love the Jericho (baby eagle) polymer compact. Also, the Walther p99 is a great looking gun (never held it though). And I've heard great things about the SIG's - I was thinking maybe a p229 or 239 (don't really know the difference) or a p250 (which I've heard mixed things about).

I have no experience with the Jericho or the P99, but I would say that both are decent guns. The Sigs are fabulous, I seem to have a love affair with them as I don't currently own one, but have had some in the past. They seem to be my chick on the side as far as firearms are concerned. I just can't leave my current loves for them. I don't like the slide stop location and I'm not overly fond of the DAK and hate traditional DA/SA triggers, I had a 220 SAO, but as far as single stack, metal, SAO, .45s go; the 1911 is still king IMHO. Now that being said, the 226 in 9mm with the traditional DA/SA trigger is still on of the most reliable, accurate, and dead sexy pistols I've laid eyes on. The 229 is basically a scaled down version of the 226.

As stated, you can go to Sig's website and see the different models. As far as caliber is concerned, there is nothing wrong with the 9mm, the .40 is only slightly larger and the increased muzzle climb is a little harder to master. Being new to handguns, I would say it's best for you to start with the 9mm. Why introduce more issues like increased recoil while learning to master the gun?

Another possibility is the Springfield XD line, but if you think the Glock is ugly, you obviously haven't seen the original XD. I have an XDM in 9mm and love it.

Regarding poymer. I prefer steel frames to alloy or polymer, but I've had a little of everything and opinion of polymer is changing direction back into the positive side of things. There is something to be said for the weight difference as far as carry is concerned. But for a house gun is the light weight really needed? The added weight does help to dampen recoil and if it's a house gun, the added weight doesn't matter.

Now all that being said, the best course of action is to try and find a place that has a range and rents guns, they may not have all the models you want to try, but it's a start to find out what you like and what you don't. And while you're there, rent a Glock just to give it a try.

great, thanks for the input so far.

I don't know where there's a good place around here that rents guns, but I'll try to find one. I won't count the gock completely out in the mean time.

So I hope I didn't miss anything, but you're mainly saying - out of what I've mentioned (plus the glock) there's no one handgun that trumps any other, or even one that's left in the dust by the rest. They're all fair, and the best place to start is going to the range, and based on what characteristics I like - go from there...

Originally Posted by as-of-now

So I hope I didn't miss anything, but you're mainly saying - out of what I've mentioned (plus the glock) there's no one handgun that trumps any other, or even one that's left in the dust by the rest. They're all fair, and the best place to start is going to the range, and based on what characteristics I like - go from there...

Exactly.

I live with my girlfriend, and I want something that she will have an easy time firing as well,

The other thing you need to consider is can she rack the slide. It's great if she can fire the gun and be accurate with it, but it's useless if she can't clear a jam, no gun is immune to malfunctions.

I've seen new SIG p250's online for just over 600, and I'd be willing to make the stretch, if I wound up liking the 9mm p250. You're right though, the p229 is more money...I saw on their web site that they have certified pre owned, which I've definitely been considering....

Oh, also I was going to ask about the difference between a p229 and the 239. Is the difference between a single and double stack only the amount of bullets in a magazine? Because if so, I don't think it would really matter to me, because we're restricted so heavily here in California anyway...

And as far as holsters go, I don't think it's an issue, I don't see when I'd use one, because you can't have them in Ca either....yes, it sucks...I know...

This post is put up with suggestions from my wife, who shoots quite well.....

Some polymers have the advantage of being able to change grip size. The Beretta PX4 , Walther P99, and S&W M&P have this ability. Most likely you can find a grip size that will suit both of you. My wife has come to like our M&P and P99 more than just about any other, mainly because I have installed the mid-sized grip insert. It's a smidge smaller than what I would prefer, but I have no problems with them.

Unfortunately, a new P99 will be out of your price range, but the M&P can easily be found in your price range, and most likely the PX4 as well. They are as reliable and as accurate as a Glock or Sig or H&K.

Other pistols to consider are the Ruger SR9, which does not have a long track record, and the Sig 2022, which is being discontinued. The polymer Sig 250 can be ordered w/night sights for under $500. You can't change a grip insert with this pistol, but you can change the entire grip assembly.

Do look at the Glock 17 or 19. You won't find a more reliable pistol, and it's easier to find accessories for them than any other pistol type save the 1911. They are also the simplest of designs, and anyone can easily learn how to change internal parts. I too disliked the Glock because of it's appearance (I'm more of a metal-framed traditionalist), but when it came time to choose something for the possibility of serious social work, I chose the Glock. We have a handgun collection that is larger than most, and it is the Glock is what my wife used to qualify for her CHL, and it is what I use for concealed carry.

Originally Posted by PhilR.

This post is put up with suggestions from my wife, who shoots quite well.....

Some polymers have the advantage of being able to change grip size. The Beretta PX4 , Walther P99, and S&W M&P have this ability. Most likely you can find a grip size that will suit both of you. My wife has come to like our M&P and P99 more than just about any other, mainly because I have installed the mid-sized grip insert. It's a smidge smaller than what I would prefer, but I have no problems with them.

Unfortunately, a new P99 will be out of your price range, but the M&P can easily be found in your price range, and most likely the PX4 as well. They are as reliable and as accurate as a Glock or Sig or H&K.

Other pistols to consider are the Ruger SR9, which does not have a long track record, and the Sig 2022, which is being discontinued. The polymer Sig 250 can be ordered w/night sights for under $500. You can't change a grip insert with this pistol, but you can change the entire grip assembly.

Do look at the Glock 17 or 19. You won't find a more reliable pistol, and it's easier to find accessories for them than any other pistol type save the 1911. They are also the simplest of designs, and anyone can easily learn how to change internal parts. I too disliked the Glock because of it's appearance (I'm more of a metal-framed traditionalist), but when it came time to choose something for the possibility of serious social work, I chose the Glock. We have a handgun collection that is larger than most, and it is the Glock is what my wife used to qualify for her CHL, and it is what I use for concealed carry.

You gave some great suggestions, thanks! I never thought about grip size until you mentioned it, now that I think about it, she has much smaller hands so one in the middle would be great. I was wondering, what you think the reliability of the p99 is like, from experience or what you've heard....?

Two walthers on the upper end of my range, but I could swing it, if I was given enough reason too....


http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/13323

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/15431

And, two SIG's

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/29284

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/60686

by the way, does anyone happen to know the difference between the earlier p99's and later versions? Does it really matter whether or not it is made in Germany, or Germany and the US?

From What I remember, San Fan isn't very handgun friendly, if you are just going for home defense, look into some shotguns. If it has to be a handgun, don't leave the small revolvers out of your options.

First, Welcome to the forum. and thank you for your service to the Country.

Lets go through your post a bit at a time.

Originally Posted by as-of-now

Hello everyone I am just out of a military service, and I now live in the San Francisco bay area.

I am sorry to hear that you live in SanFrancisco. No need to say why, because we all know.

I'm looking at purchasing a handgun for personal protection/home safety (plus time in the range), and don't really know where to turn. I wish I could just go for an M-4, because that's what I know and what I'm comfortable with, but I'd say a handgun is the way I'm headed.

How about the Standard issue side arm for the military. The Beretta 92. Ah, sorry, that is a all metal frame, much heavier than most polys loaded. Well there is the Beretta PX4.

Here is a review for the PX4 http://www.great-lakes.org/reviews/review-03-06-06.html and another http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Wea...ubcompact.aspx
Also there is the Bersa BP9CC a very nice and well built brand that does not get much advertisement here in the US but are top notch pistols. The BP9CC is their only poly and it is due out at the end of this year or early next.

I know you said you were not really interested in Glock but don't over look them. I did for a long time and regret it. Having recently purchased a G17 I was very impressed at how accurate and how little felt recoil this poly has in comparison to even many full size metal frame guns. If you are looking for the smaller brother to this gun, consider the G19.

The Walther P99 is a fine gun, but a new one will break your bank by a minimum of 100.00 as the new ones are starting at the 700.00 mark. You may be able to find them for less some place and if you can, they are well worth it.

Let me say too, that I have both poly and metal as most do these days and the best poly guns I have are Walther P99, Glock 17, XDm9mm and a recent purchase that really surprised me a HS2000 the predecessor of the XD.
In my humble opinion any one of these guns would be fine for what you are talking about, though the XDm might be a bit large frame wise.

I live with my girlfriend, and I want something that she will have an easy time firing as well, which is why I'm relatively set on a 9mm, as opposed to a .40 cal. The velocities are roughly the same, from what I understand,

Actually I think the velocities of a 40SW are closer to a +P9mm or a +P+9mm. a much hotter load than the standard 9mm.

and the.40 doesn't really do all that much more damage.

This is true if you are shooting quality defensive rounds.


That said, it's the accuracy and ease of firing multiple successive rounds for both myself and my girlfriend that I have the 9mm in mind.

I want something relatively compact and (preferably) with a polymer frame. Money, unfortunately is an issue. I'd like to have a limit of 600 dollars, but I'll spend more if I can find something I love.

Reliability and Accuracy are KEY!!!

Again the polys I mentioned above will all fill this need.

That said, I have to love the look of the gun, which is why I'm straying from the glock. I've been looking at a few guns in particular. First off, I love the Jericho (baby eagle) polymer compact. Also, the Walther p99 is a great looking gun (never held it though). And I've heard great things about the SIG's - I was thinking maybe a p229 or 239 (don't really know the difference) or a p250 (which I've heard mixed things about).

I would appreciate any info on the handguns I just mentioned - reviews, comparisons, opinions on which are best, etc.

Also, if there are other guns that I didn't mention that you think might fit the bill, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your time an patience in dealing with a handgun newb....

I have not commented on the Jerico or Sigs as have no experience with them.
But back to the Bersa. The BP9CC has not been released yet in the states but I am sure will be a excellent pistol just as all their other pistols have been.
One last honourable mention is the Bersa HiCapacity 9mm Pro.

This is a metal, aluminium framed gun. Maybe a couple oz heavier than any of the polys I mentioned. It has a rail as you see, comes with two 17 round mags and a match grade barrel. Very easy shooting gun and you get back on target with the sights very quickly. If you have an in door range that rents guns out and they have one of these, rent it and give it a go.
It took me quite some time to get the money up for this gun, with the economy being the way it is, and it is a definite keeper. This gun can be had NIB in the lower 400.00 range and is worth every penny and more. Bersas are top line guns at entry level prices.
If you need any more info on them just go to the Bersa section of the forum and find my posts.
Good luck, hope you find what you want.

Good luck in your search, welcome to the forum, and thanks to your service to our country!
I agree with most others opinion here, there is no "best" handgun in that price range for 9mm. All of the guns mentioned will serve you well, you just need to go out and see with "fits" you and hopefully be able to rent the different models and see what you shoot best.
I, too, was against the look of the glock for many years. But guess what I carry now? A glock 19. To me, the glock is still ugly as hell, but it just WORKS. I have fed it many different brands of ammo including reloads and it just fires every time....clean or dirty.
I also own a springfield XD. Mine is not the 9mm, but rather a .45.....but a very reliable gun. I would take a close look at the springfield XDm 9mm if I were you. A polymer framed 9mm with adjustable backstraps for your grip AND in your price range.
Let us know whatever you choose.....and beware, once you buy one you'll have to have more LOL

Originally Posted by gunluver

I would take a close look at the springfield XDm 9mm if I were you.

The OP is in CA. The XDm magazine capacity is may be an issue.

Originally Posted by as-of-now

Two walthers on the upper end of my range, but I could swing it, if I was given enough reason too....


http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/13323

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/15431

And, two SIG's

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/29284

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/60686

by the way, does anyone happen to know the difference between the earlier p99's and later versions? Does it really matter whether or not it is made in Germany, or Germany and the US?

The two Walthers are the older versions. Their mag release levers are shorter, and the de-cocking button on the top of the slide is smaller. Also, you don't want the QA version. The AS version is much more popular. For these reasons, I would say look for the newer AS version. All P99's are made in Germany.

The Sig 239 is a nice pistol. I'm not fond of the grip shape, but you might be. Ours has not had any failures of any type. I don't use it for carry as the capacity is too low for it's bulk/weight. I would not have purchased it if it were to be my only handgun as the extra cost over a Glock does not purchase any improvment in reliability or accuracy, but I don't have to depend on it for anything.

The 250 I can't tell you anything about, since I don't have one of those and neither does anyone in my circle of shooting friends/family. Most comments I've read have been favorable, but not all. It does seem like a lot of handgun for the money, as long as the transfer fee is reasonable.

Originally Posted by Todd

The OP is in CA. The XDm magazine capacity is may be an issue.

Yah, one of the many problems a person deals with when living in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia

Wow, thanks for all of the great responses so far. I know, California has it's ups and DOWNS.... big time, but I'm stuck here for the time being, soo...

The bersas seem to be cheap! I just did a search online, and there's a gun expo at a place called the cow palace (in San Fran) this coming weekend, and I think I'll go! Maybe if I can't shoot them, I can still right off the bat, get an idea of what I like, more or less. The next one's in January, if I don't buy this time around...

Originally Posted by as-of-now

Wow, thanks for all of the great responses so far. I know, California has it's ups and DOWNS.... big time, but I'm stuck here for the time being, soo...

The bersas seem to be cheap! I just did a search online, and there's a gun expo at a place called the cow palace (in San Fran) this coming weekend, and I think I'll go! Maybe if I can't shoot them, I can still right off the bat, get an idea of what I like, more or less. The next one's in January, if I don't buy this time around...

They are very reasonably priced yes, but they are not cheaply made.
I own many hand guns. Berettas, Browning, Springfield, Kimber, Ruger and the list goes on.
Bersa pistols are every bit as good in quality, fit, finish, reliability, etc as any of the brands listed above. My Thunder HC9mm Pro, is as accurate out of the box as my Glock, XDm, Beretta etc. and cost hundreds less. Bersas are a great quality gun/brand for those who are looking for a first gun and want more of their gun than what they are paying.
If you can find a range to rent and shoot one. a properly maintained Bersa will impress you.
I say properly maintained because, often times rental guns of all makes are not maintained and give bad results to new buyers.
Good luck in your search.

Originally Posted by gunluver

Good luck in your search, welcome to the forum, and thanks to your service to our country!
I agree with most others opinion here, there is no "best" handgun in that price range for 9mm. All of the guns mentioned will serve you well, you just need to go out and see with "fits" you and hopefully be able to rent the different models and see what you shoot best.
I, too, was against the look of the glock for many years. But guess what I carry now? A glock 19. To me, the glock is still ugly as hell, but it just WORKS. I have fed it many different brands of ammo including reloads and it just fires every time....clean or dirty.
I also own a springfield XD. Mine is not the 9mm, but rather a .45.....but a very reliable gun. I would take a close look at the springfield XDm 9mm if I were you. A polymer framed 9mm with adjustable backstraps for your grip AND in your price range.
Let us know whatever you choose.....and beware, once you buy one you'll have to have more LOL

RED
LOL, The way a gun looks is as important to me as how well the gun works.
Not being a Glock nut I was not impressed with the way this gun looks, After having bought one and seeing just how good these guns are, my view of the guns looks have changed.
It is still not a beautiful gun like say the P99,



or a XDm



or the Beretta 90-two



but I do look at them with a new perspective or in a new light.

BLUE
If that ain't the truth. I started out with a Astra A100.

Bought it just before the Clinton AWB years back. Thought I would not need anything after that. and boy was I right. Did not need. BUT WANT!!! gi-me gi-me gi-me droool.
Like a Lays potato chip you can't have just one.

Thanks for all the info!

I can't wait until this weekend's gun show! Woohoo, like a kid in a candy store...

Well, I probably won't be buying there, but I'll get a good idea of what there is.

Also, I was going to ask - what do you all think of buying a used (but still in good condition) gun? I've seen a few adds here and there for used guns with only "1000 rds" fired. (You can't really verify, I know) Anyway, if I could pick a local used gun up from a shop around the Bay Area, maybe it'd be easier than having it shipped?

(I don't have fifty posts yet, so I can't look in the classifieds here, although I want to!!)

Lastly, are there fees the registered gun dealers charge to us lesser lucky people to receive the gun?

Thanks everyone, once again.

Nothing at all wrong with buying used, as long as you know what to look (and look out) for. I just picked up a used, unfired Kimber Eclipse Ultra II for $350 less than the price of a "new" one. As far as transfer fees, most FFLs will charge you for doing the paperwork. Around here, the going rate of the good FFLs is around 25 dollars or so. If they want an exorbitant amount, look elsewhere. Here's a hint: Do not have a gun shipped in that your dealer has in stock or can immediately get for you; that's a big no-no, and just plain insulting to the dealer.

A couple of other suggestions, the Sig 2022 as mentioned, is an excellent piece; Taurus Millenium Pro and EAA (European American Armory) make affordable reliable guns as well.

Only caution about buying at a gun show, be sure the dealer you are dealing is reputable. I've heard stories about the gun looking pristine, but ending up to be a piece of crap.

Regarding two you mentioned, the Walther P99 and a SigSauer P228 or 229. I own the P99 and P229. I'm guessing the grip on a Sig may be too thick for your girlfriend...maybe. I purchased a LEO trade-in Sig P229, 9mm for $500.00. The Walther P99 was NIB for $550.00 (probably lower than CA prices). It can be complicated (at first) to operate an AS model for a new shooter. However, the QA model is the same DAO trigger pull every time. Plus, the grip comes with three different grip attachments for a better feel/grip. Check your local gun shops for LEO trade-ins, it can save you money, and you'll know that gun is functional and reliable. Not many rounds down the pipe, except for qualification shooting. Just remember to choose the correct model handgun for you. If you don't, and you try to sell it afterwards, it's like a car driven off the showroom floor, you loose money quickly.

Originally Posted by SigZagger

Regarding two you mentioned, the Walther P99 and a SigSauer P228 or 229. I own the P99 and P229. I'm guessing the grip on a Sig may be too thick for your girlfriend...maybe. I purchased a LEO trade-in Sig P229, 9mm for $500.00. The Walther P99 was NIB for $550.00 (probably lower than CA prices). It can be complicated (at first) to operate an AS model for a new shooter. However, the QA model is the same DAO trigger pull every time. Plus, the grip comes with three different grip attachments for a better feel/grip. Check your local gun shops for LEO trade-ins, it can save you money, and you'll know that gun is functional and reliable. Not many rounds down the pipe, except for qualification shooting. Just remember to choose the correct model handgun for you. If you don't, and you try to sell it afterwards, it's like a car driven off the showroom floor, you loose money quickly.

Thanks so far guys, I have to ask, sigzagger, what is an LEO trade-in? is it different than a normal trade-in? Got it, I've always bought used (except for a FEW things in my life) I thought after the army (and being around really used and abused guns) that I didn't want to take a chance with something like this, BUT if I may be able to purchase something I like at a reasonable price...I think I'll be swayed.

I'm going to head down to a place called old west gun room (in richmond, ca - I believe) today, I've heard the guy there has a nice selection of pistols... maybe he'll have a few trade-ins...

Originally Posted by as-of-now

Also, I was going to ask - what do you all think of buying a used (but still in good condition) gun?

Lastly, are there fees the registered gun dealers charge to us lesser lucky people to receive the gun?

I have purchased numerous used guns over the years. A few were off of gunbroker.com, and were in worse condition that stated, but that's the risk you take. Obviously I have no problem with used guns, and I have also come across some excellent bargains as well, such as a nearly-new Sig 239 for a hair over $400.

An FFL dealer will charge a certain amount to do a transfer of a used firearm over to you. How much varies a lot, and seems to be higher in CA. I'm in TX, and my FFL charges me $10, but then again I am a very good customer. Of course if you buy a new handgun, the fees are essentially built into the selling price of the firearm.

I think Bud's had CPO Sig P250's for $399. I know someone did a week ago.

I like my P250 (.45). The trigger takes some getting used too but that's a cheap fix with snap caps. You could get the 9mm and then step up to the .40 or .357 sig conversion kit for the 250, WHEN they are released.