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  1. #26
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VP70TK View Post
    What about a .22 or .25 Beretta flip-up barrel for my daughter? Sorry, I can't remember the model no., but I shot them quite a bit in the past and they were really a blast and reliable.
    While they are fun, they are *very* often inaccuate and unreliable. At least it is quite easy to clear a misfeed, which is good because until you find the right combination of ammo and lube type, you will be doing it often.

    If you want to do target shooting, or plinking at more than 15-20 feet away, don't get a tip-up. You and the persons who are trying to hit the targets will be much happier with a MKIII or BM or Neos.....

    PhilR.
    (owner of two Beretta tip-ups....)

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  3. #27
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    Growler67 is offline Member
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    Getting back to the OP, "importance" is purely subjective. If you have need for appendages and are comfortable with and using them I suppose they would be important. Personally I don't much care for them. They have specific applications in Military and LE though they are not universally adopted. I have two handguns with a rail. My Walther P22 and my SiGPro 2022. If I had a choice in the matter I would go rail-less. I don't see the point or functionality from the perspective of my needs and uses.

    I love everything else about my SP except the rail though there is no way to remove it so I just consider it a blem. It functions fine as is and as soon as it is completely broken in and has a set of TFO's on it, it'll be near excellence (I don't bellieve in perfection).

    Ask yourself if you would be using the rail and with what accessory. That will determine it's "importance" to you and define your "need" one way or the other. Temper your decision making with these thoughts. If you do intend to carry with this handgun, will your accessory be mounted 24-7? If so finding a rig may be a bit of a challenge, even more so if you are going to be attempting a concealed carry. If you have a light or laser mounted to your rail, how much bulk and weight will it add when considering your CCW dressing options? In general, most people go with smaller/lighter choices when carrying for concealability aspects.

    My very first handgun was and still is my P226. At nearly 19 years and over 20K rounds it has been flawless - and without a rail. I like the classic look as I've not been impressed with the "tacticool" look of things in recent years. I think the classics have a certain aire of style and good looks without all the "popular trending" towards useless appendages.

    Looks aside, put your hands on as many of your "candidates" before you decide to buy. If the opportunity avails, put some rounds through them as well. Getting a feel for how the fit and feel in your hands will determine how well you may be able to shoot them. If it doesn't fit and feel comfortable, you will not shoot it as well as if it did. I have not been impressed by .40 in anything I've shot it through. Many like it for several reasons. I do not for many of my own. However, if you wish to shoot multiple calibers through the same handgun, the .40/.357SIG option for starters is the way to go. A 9mm and/or .22LR option can be gotten at a later time in the P226 or P229. There is also a .22LR kit available for the P220.

    It is more expensive but if you choose a single gun for a single caliber and/or application, then you can't really go wrong with SiG, IMHO. Provided they fit and feel right in your hands, that is. They work for me and so that is what I own. I have tried many others and continue to do so when the opportunities present. The grip angle and ergos just feel right with the SiG's and have not with most everything else I've tried. This is something you will have to determine for yourself along with all the other things mentioned in this thread.

    The Beretta Bobcat or Tomcat thing I cannot say much about as I've not had the opportunity yet. SiG does make the Mosquito which is described as 70% the size of the P226. It had some problems out of the gate, but most that have gotten them recently have had few bad things to say about it from my readings on various forums. It's a nice option to consider in .22LR.

    Hope my input has been helpful.

  4. #28
    VP70TK is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you Growler and PhilR. (and others who have posted in this thread).

    Just when I thought this was going to be easy, you guys had to go and screw up my whole world. J/K

    I guess I should check out some .22s now !!!

    Growler, I have held the SP2022 and P226 and both felt "right" in my hand. Do you have any more input comparing the two? Once again, thank you for the help.

  5. #29
    Grampy is offline Junior Member
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    I also plan to get a .22 LR as a first gun. Which Buckmark model on this link would be best, assuming I am going to try to test them for feel first if possible. I will probably want to add a red dot scope soon after purchase.

    http://www.browning.com/products/cat...06B&catalog_=B

    I am also considering the S&W:
    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...10&isFirearm=Y

    and Ruger:
    http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...=Bull%20Barrel

    Not sure what model Ruger, though--considering wanted a scope later.
    Last edited by Grampy; 12-06-2008 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Added models.

  6. #30
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampy View Post
    I also plan to get a .22 LR as a first gun. Which Buckmark model on this link would be best, assuming I am going to try to test them for feel first if possible. I will probably want to add a red dot scope soon after purchase.

    http://www.browning.com/products/cat...06B&catalog_=B

    I am also considering the S&W:
    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...10&isFirearm=Y

    and Ruger:
    http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...=Bull%20Barrel

    Not sure what model Ruger, though--considering wanted a scope later.
    It can be difficult to find a BM with a scope rail. If however you are willing to search for one, I think you will be happy. They have the best trigger of any $300 or less .22lr auto. One thing that might prevent me from scoping a BM is the way they come apart. You might see if the scope has to be removed in order to strip the pistol.

    Possibly an easier way to go is the 22A or the Beretta Neos, both of which have integral scope rails. Because the 22A has a gap in the rail cutouts, not all red dot's will fit. Both are accurate and reliable, and I think the 22A's trigger is slightly better than the Neos'. The big difference is grip size, with the Neos smaller than the 22A. If you have small hands, you might like the Neos a lot, and it will accept just about any red dot out there.

    The Ruger MKIII is great and does come with a scope rail, but you have to mount it yourself. Personally, I like the ability choose the presence of a scope rail. Trigger is better than the 22A or Neos, but stripping procedure is much more complicated.

    hth,
    PhilR.

  7. #31
    Grampy is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilR. View Post
    It can be difficult to find a BM with a scope rail. If however you are willing to search for one, I think you will be happy. They have the best trigger of any $300 or less .22lr auto. One thing that might prevent me from scoping a BM is the way they come apart. You might see if the scope has to be removed in order to strip the pistol.

    Possibly an easier way to go is the 22A or the Beretta Neos, both of which have integral scope rails. Because the 22A has a gap in the rail cutouts, not all red dot's will fit. Both are accurate and reliable, and I think the 22A's trigger is slightly better than the Neos'. The big difference is grip size, with the Neos smaller than the 22A. If you have small hands, you might like the Neos a lot, and it will accept just about any red dot out there.

    The Ruger MKIII is great and does come with a scope rail, but you have to mount it yourself. Personally, I like the ability choose the presence of a scope rail. Trigger is better than the 22A or Neos, but stripping procedure is much more complicated.

    hth,
    PhilR.
    Thanks, Phil. I'm leaning to the 22A, but need to visit store/range to try out.

  8. #32
    buck32's Avatar
    buck32 is offline Member
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    Here is a picture of my son's Beretta Neos. It is a fun accurate little gun to shoot.



  9. #33
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    The Browning Buckmark camper is a fun to shoot 22. I have a Buckmark for my 10 year old boy. I have a Mk III Ruger too and he also shoots it but it was bought more for me to plink with. I like it's 1911 like feel.

    Oh..and the rail thing? I have one gun with a rail. I have a light/laser combo thingie to go on it. It never goes on though.
    Last edited by DevilsJohnson; 12-06-2008 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Just wanted to see if you read the fine print.. Way to go!! :-p

  10. #34
    Growler67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VP70TK View Post
    Thank you Growler and PhilR. (and others who have posted in this thread).

    Just when I thought this was going to be easy, you guys had to go and screw up my whole world. J/K

    I guess I should check out some .22s now !!!

    Growler, I have held the SP2022 and P226 and both felt "right" in my hand. Do you have any more input comparing the two? Once again, thank you for the help.
    The sentimental favorite is always going to be my P226. Almost 19 years old and over 20K rounds through it, it has been 100% reliable. Original barrel and It's digested everything from 95gr SJSWC to Czeck surplus to 147gr HydraShoks without ever having an FTL, FTF or FTE.

    Side by side, the P226 is slightly heavier as expected (alloy frame). They are virtually the same height (top of slide to bottom of grip) and the SP is slightly shorter (length of slide) by about 1/4 inch. The SP has a tapered slide (narrower at the top of the slide and wider at the bottom where it mates up with the frame. Thus the SP has a slightly wider frame than the P226. Both are just as easy to set a "parallel thumbs" or "thumbs pointing at target" or whatever you want to call it, grip on.

    The SP is limited to 15 round mags only whereas (depending on where you live) the P226 has optional OEM as well as aftermarket options for 16, 17 and recently 18 round mags. Straight setup comparison with 15 rounds loaded, again the P226 is slightly heavier. Because of the slide length the P226 offers a longer sight radius. I have Meps on my P226 and the standard SiG contrast sights (dot the i) on my SP. Both will eventually be wearing TruGlo TFO's but they don't yet.

    The SP requires a bit more finesse in field stripping than than the P series and thus is slower if you do this for time I don't know what else you might want to know but keep asking and eventually you'll get everything answered that you want.

    The only pic I have that's close to a side by side for comparison.

    Last edited by Growler67; 12-06-2008 at 09:19 PM. Reason: ETA pic

  11. #35
    VP70TK is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks again everybody for the help.
    I'm going to a gun show in the morning with my son. Hopefully they'll have a lot of guns I'm interested in.
    I think the semi-used P226 is my first choice.
    Now I need to check out some .22s for my daughter. I may even look at some .22 rifles.
    I know this is a handgun forum but, does anyone have any suggestions for a .22 rifle? They seem to be a little less expensive than pistols from what I've seen on the internet.
    Again,any help is appreciated.
    Will report later tomorrow about the show findings.

    Growler, there doesn't seem to be much size difference at all between the Sigs. Thanks again.

  12. #36
    Growler67's Avatar
    Growler67 is offline Member
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    You can usually find a Chipmunk at gun shows for pretty cheap. Single shot breech loading bolt action. Small size built just for little ones to get started on. Otherwise the always available Ruger 10/22 and a few extra mags.

  13. #37
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    When you said .22's for your daughter, did you mean rifle, or was the rifle for you? If your daughter is still young, then the best choice would be the aforementioned Cricket. If she is older, then she would do fine with an adult rifle. If you want a semi-auto adult rifle, then the Ruger 10/22 would be a great choice, though they never seem to be around when you actually want one. They have lots of aftermarket accessories to tune/customize them. Another good semi is the Marlin 60. If you want a tactical look, the GSG-5 is a hoot to shoot, although a bit pricey.

    If you want a lever gun, take a look at the Henry's at the low end of the price scale (a bit over $200), or the Marlin 39A at the high end of the scale. The Winchester is a nice one too, but not easy to find.

    For bolt guns, take a look at the Savage w/Accutrigger (or something like that), or for less money the offerings from Marlin, Remington, and Mossberg. If you want a really nice and accurate bolt gun, take a look at the Weatherby MKXXII, which is actually a German Anschutz in a Weatherby stock. Anschutz makes the finest .22's in the world. In between these two is the CZ 452, which provides a great amount of performance for the dollar.

    Let us know what you come up with....

    PhilR.

  14. #38
    VP70TK is offline Junior Member
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    Hey guys. Just got back from the gun show. Unfortunately there are 3 shows within about 100 miles this weekend. We ended up at the closest (and worst) one due to time constraints.

    Anyway, I did make a few observations as far as .22 pistols for my daughter to shoot.
    I have fairly small hands. The grips on the Ruger MKIII and S&W 22 felt too big to me. I figured if they felt too big to me, they'd really be too big for my daughter.
    I REALLY liked the Walther P22 and Sig Mosquito. I didn't like the prices much though.
    I didn't see any rifles like the 10/22 etc. to check out either. I was pretty dissappointed.
    I was able to handle several .40 cal guns though. The XD and FNP felt really good. So did the Sig 226/229.
    I'm still waiting to hear from my friend with the 226 for sale.

    Any other .22 ideas?

  15. #39
    bdp2000 is offline Member
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    I know we've wandered a bit off topic but the Walther p22 is another good choice for a .22 for smaller hands. And it looks pretty cool!

  16. #40
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    cavie187 is offline Junior Member
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    Though I agree that rails are almost useless, I am going to play a little devil's advocate here...

    One plus for the rail is: If you are new to handguns, a laser would probably help you get used to the use of the sites and by getting used to the sites and aiming of the weapon, you will also find a good stance that works for you.

    Practicality is not there for regular use or CCW, but for training purposes, it can help you get used to the weapon. It will also help you find comfort when switching between different models. Some people like the feel of a Glock, and some have issues with the fitment of the grips and frame angle. If you are one of the people that has a problem, and would like to find a way to help you shoot effectively (ie: LEO field weapon), I might suggest using this method to help you adjust -if there is a rail of course.

  17. #41
    Rastus's Avatar
    Rastus is offline Junior Member
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    I disagree with the general proposition that rails are useless.

    A hinderance on a ccw weapon? YES.
    Absolutely necessary? NO.
    Ugly? Yes or No, depending on your perspective.
    Useful in some situations? ABSOLUTELY!

    I listened to all the arguments, pro and con, before deciding on the setup for my bedside HD weapon (which is not the same gun I use for ccw or range work). I finally settled on a .45 with a rail-mounted light/laser combo. With the flick of a switch, I can identify my target, seriously disorient it with the strobe light, and place the laser on target - all in one quick motion in a darkened house without fumbling for my glasses. The cost of the rail-mounted unit was $90.

    All of these things FOR ME make the pistol - as outfitted - more valuable for its intended purpose.

    There are other ways to accomplish the same goals, as mentioned already in this thread, and the rail would be useless/undesireable for those who have advocated their own preferences in these matters.

    My view is that the rail does nothing to detract from the use of the gun if the rail is empty, but it is there if you decide to utilize it for its intended purpose. Aesthetics aside, having the rail seems like a win-win situation to me.

    BTW, SIG does now make a .22 conversion kit for the P226. Two guns in one.

  18. #42
    Spartan's Avatar
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    I agree here, on all points ^

    My nightstand gun is also a 45 with light/ laser combo. When I sleep, it is pitch black... light wakes me up very easily. If there is that "bump in the night," (especially if it's actually in my room) the less things I have to fumble around for as I am waking from a deep sleep, the better.

    Also, by using a seperate flashlight, you are effectivly eliminating a free hand/ arm, right? ... meaning, I'd prefer to keep both hands on the gun or use my left hand for something else if needed (open a door, dial 911), rather than holding a flashlight. Maybe those who have had training can enlighten me on this, for I may be playing the 'ignorant card' here. But why do with two hands what you can do with one?

    For me personally, if I saw two guns sitting in the gun shop, exactly the same in every way but one has a rail and one doesn't, I'd go for the one with the rail 100% of the time. If you don't need it, don't use it; if you do, or think you may at any point in the future, it's there...

  19. #43
    Ditch Doc is offline Junior Member
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    Probably a little late for this post, but I have heard of several instances of people who carry that have accessories getting into serious trouble in court.

    From what I was told, it can be viewed as crossing the line between "personal defense" and "looking for trouble" Same can be said for hi-cap mags. I really don't have an opinion one way or the other. Just a different point of view.

  20. #44
    BeefyBeefo's Avatar
    BeefyBeefo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastus View Post
    I listened to all the arguments, pro and con, before deciding on the setup for my bedside HD weapon (which is not the same gun I use for ccw or range work). I finally settled on a .45 with a rail-mounted light/laser combo. With the flick of a switch, I can identify my target, seriously disorient it with the strobe light, and place the laser on target - all in one quick motion in a darkened house without fumbling for my glasses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan
    I agree here, on all points ^

    My nightstand gun is also a 45 with light/ laser combo. When I sleep, it is pitch black... light wakes me up very easily. If there is that "bump in the night," (especially if it's actually in my room) the less things I have to fumble around for as I am waking from a deep sleep, the better.

    Also, by using a seperate flashlight, you are effectivly eliminating a free hand/ arm, right? ... meaning, I'd prefer to keep both hands on the gun or use my left hand for something else if needed (open a door, dial 911), rather than holding a flashlight. Maybe those who have had training can enlighten me on this, for I may be playing the 'ignorant card' here. But why do with two hands what you can do with one?
    As others have mentioned in this thread, if you want to shine the light somewhere, then your gun has to be pointed in the same direction. Also, if you have children or other loved ones in your household, there's a good chance you might be pointing a loaded handgun at your loved one, just to identify the "threat." Also, if there was an immediate threat and I wanted to keep aim at him/her but quickly look around with the light (check for other threats) then I can do so with a separate lightsource.

    As far as losing a hand, I don't really feel that way. The size flashlight that I am talking about is not really a hindrance.

    Either way, it's a preference that is up to the shooter. If you are more comfortable with a weapon mounted light, then that's exactly what you should use.

    -Jeff-

  21. #45
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    You really have to decide for yourself based on your circumstances. My firearms are my first contingency. My primary is 92 pounds of "wolf looking" Malamute running at anyone wanting to wrestle. "Tango" isn't going to know that and will choose "fight or flight" at the sound of the thundering hoofs (feets actually).

    That at least gives me "distraction" time to come to my senses and arm myself. For me, I choose passive lighting in the rest of my house (strategically placed nightlights). As it is only my dog and myself, anyone else in the house without invitation is a "Tango". There are no nightlights in my bedroom (my night acquity is actually better than my day acquity) and I have nightsights on my P226 and P228, I rotate between stints in the gunsafe for nightstand duty. Backlighting them while not disclosing/exposing my exact position gives me the tactical advantage.

    How your home is set up and how you decide to establish your defensive postures and positions is an individual choice. Everybodies house is different as are their other circumstances.

    Personally (and I read this somewhere before, I just can't remember the source) I would avoid the light option mounted on the handgun. What I read years ago about LEO's holding a small flashlight in their non-firing hand and setting up wrist on wrist left bad guys thinking that their best option was to shoot at the light. High probability of hitting the holder. This led to some LEO's holding their flashlights with and extended arm away from the body but pointed and sweeping "down range". Using the lit area as backlit, the sights can be alligned and the area swept in tandem (flashlight and handgun).

    Not saying that any or many for that matter in the way of bad guys will or might be this savy, it is up to the individual to maximize their advantages while minimizing their disadvantages. You know where your furniture is and the layout of your house. They do not and will likely be using flashlights themselves. Just think about all the possible aspects of your situation and come up with a plan that suits it best.

    Have contingencies as well because any good plan isn't known by the bad guys and they won't follow the script if they don't have it. You gotta try and think it from their perspective. Points of entry, likely targets of value, proximity of target items to/from point of entry/egress, quickest routes without obstructions (one reason ottomans, end tables, coffee tables and such cluttering a room can be advantageous). The reverse think YOUR plan and how it will and won't work based on the previous. LOS, windows behind tango or open door, and so on. Find quick and easy defensive positions based on your plan. Consider a contingency for a possible fire and move scenario where you may have to move to another location as a back up after the first shot(s) if the encounter last longer than a few seconds and gets protracted - not likely but better to prepare for it beforehand.

    Nobody, and certainly not myself, is advocating that we all become Jack Bauer's or whatever. But being prepared means thinking things through just the first step and calling it good. Practicing your plan is recommended just as much as having fire drills, IMO. It's your responsibility so be as responsible as you can and do it as intelligently and thoroughly as you can.

  22. #46
    ZO6Vettever is offline Junior Member
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    A laser would probably be fun playing with the cat. Only kidding you, some swear by lasers and lights. A small hand held flashlight would be better I think. I leave low watt lights on so there are no totally dark spots. Two dogs alarm system and I'm set!

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