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  1. #1
    themayer78's Avatar
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    I'll be first, I need some advice

    Well I may have to make an amendment to my post in the "For The Married Guys" thread in the "OFFBEAT AREA". Please don't flame me if you see me discussing this topic in other threads.

    I have done some reading and talked to a guy at my gun shop whose opinion I value and have learned some very discouraging things about the Taurus Millennium series. My gun shop doesn't even keep them in stock anymore because they got tired of sending them off for warranty work. I have heard about Taurus's CS being poor of late and various problems with their Millennium line, feeding problems, frames cracking!?! etc. We had settled on the Taurus PT111 for her because she has small hands and it fits her very well, the slide is easy to rack (she will be working on her hand strength so she will have more options for a second gun), and the price is reasonable. She shot a SW 38special and does NOT want a revolver.

    Any of you guys have suggestions about what to look at? I would love to get her an XD9SC and we will also be looking at the Walther P99 but on the other hand we're wanting to stay under/around $450.00 (or less!!). Any suggestions will be very much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Ben

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  3. #2
    DJ Niner's Avatar
    DJ Niner is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    A reliable, quality autoloader fit for small hands and under $450 is a steep order.

    Have you tried or looked at a Ruger P95? It's a larger gun, but should fill the bill in (most) all of the other areas.

    You might find a used XD or Glock 19 for around/under $450 if you keep your eyes open. Stick with the 9mm for less recoil, less expensive shooting, and a lower cost on most used guns.

  4. #3
    themayer78's Avatar
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    HMPH, well maybe we'll have to spend more than we wanted to. This is not going to be a short-term purchase so I do not want to compromise on quality. Fortunately gun shopping is fun.

    Ben

  5. #4
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themayer78 View Post
    ...
    This is not going to be a short-term purchase so I do not want to compromise on quality.
    ...
    That's a darn good thing to remember while shopping.

    Spending a bit more may open up some more options, but even then, a list of proven and reliable autos of at least 9mm caliber that will fit small hands is still a short list. There are many new-to-the-market guns that will fit small hands, but are unproven, or relatively so. There are many proven guns that are not the smallest, but may be able to be managed by a person with smaller hands, given some training and practice. Finally, there are at least a few small guns with decent track records, designed primarily for concealed carry, but some are so small and light they can be unpleasant to shoot.

    Have her hold a few models, check her finger's reach to the trigger when the trigger in the hest forward position, see if she can work the slide, and keep a list of problems with each one you reject. For instance, seeing a list of guns that you both thought were too large hands/grip might help give us a better idea of her hand size.

  6. #5
    themayer78's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice and suggestion of taking notes. That's a really good idea. I have always liked the way the Ruger P95 felt in hand but have never fired it. I just found the Ruger SR9... looks like a good gun. Doesn't look compact but it is definitely one we will be looking out for. I have to say I'm really looking forward to seeing the LCP in person. I know it's only a .380 and the spitting image of the Kel-Tec, but it just looks nicer, better constructed than the Kel-Tec.

    I don't know why the sudden Ruger kick. I guess they are a trusted name and reasonably priced. And I don't know why they get knocked for being so ugly. Glocks are about the ugliest gun I've ever seen and they have a cult following that eludes me.

    Again I would love to see her settle on (not for!!) the XD9SC (to match my 4"45C - such a great gun) but I think it might be a little too wide for her to carry. She is very excited about the search for the right gun for her. I'm sure I will have an update within a few days.

    Thanks again

    Ben

  7. #6
    neophyte is offline Member
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    small hands

    themayer78: Sir; Stating the obvious first.
    about any of the "double stacks" have 'big' handles. By nature; to get that many rounds in them.
    Ruger SR9 got around ?partly? this problem.
    .380's back again


    Jumping away for the Semi's for thought purpose.
    Revolvers have smaller Handhold
    Revolvers are suited to many many different rounds
    Revolvers are ?more reliable? [opened a can of worms]
    Revolvers can be made light. J frame
    Revolvers are less susceptible to dirt [another can of worms]

    Sir; I carry at different time GP100, SW638, Glock 17 Glock 22 SW Model 10

    My favorite are the Rugers, I have others, Carring the 638 daily I haven't ever feared to be undergunned. 5+6 bad people haven't shown up yet.

    Follow up. Thanks

  8. #7
    themayer78's Avatar
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    Craig,

    Thanks for the suggestions. I have to say revolvers have been ruled out. She liked the idea of a revolver for all the reasons you listed. Then we borrowed a friends' S&W 38 spec the other day and while I had a blast shooting it her experience can be described as almost traumatic. It was too loud (Yes we had ear protection) and kicked too much. Surely with more experience she will be able to handle a 38 better but shooting that gun a few days ago was anything but fun for her. We also shot a Walther P22, VERY fun to shoot but wouldn't buy one until we both have SD-worthy guns; a full size Glock 9mm (not sure of model), I really dislike Glocks, she liked it but wants a smaller frame; and a Taurus 1911, great gun; and last but not least she shot my XD for the first time. She liked my XD but does not want a 45 for her first gun. I on the other hand feel like I have absolutely purchased the perfect first gun for myself. I hope we can find a gun she will be as happy with.

    Until next time,

    Ben

  9. #8
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    I have pretty small hands for a guy, and I thought the trigger reach on the XD9 was pretty short. I could be wrong though. Maybe have her try out a CZ Rami. That's all I can think of at the moment...

    -Jeff-

  10. #9
    kenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themayer78 View Post
    I have done some reading and talked to a guy at my gun shop whose opinion I value and have learned some very discouraging things about the Taurus Millennium series. My gun shop doesn't even keep them in stock anymore because they got tired of sending them off for warranty work. I have heard about Taurus's CS being poor of late and various problems with their Millennium line, feeding problems, frames cracking!?! etc. We had settled on the Taurus PT111 for her because she has small hands and it fits her very well, the slide is easy to rack (she will be working on her hand strength so she will have more options for a second gun),
    That's weird, I own a T Mil and love it.

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    The Walther PPS in 9mm would probably be a great gun, but you won't get it for under $600. Have you looked at a PPK in .380ACP? They're super small and go for around $500 or so.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    The Walther PPS in 9mm would probably be a great gun, but you won't get it for under $600. Have you looked at a PPK in .380ACP? They're super small and go for around $500 or so.
    The PPS is a very cool looking gun, but it is quite expensive. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one someday and putting a few rounds through it.

    -Jeff-

  13. #12
    submoa is offline Member
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    A Bersa Thunder .380 might fit your requirements on price and SD.

    They are a highly reliable blowback design similar to Walther PPK. The low bore axis and small (but effective) .380ACP caliber should address her recoil concerns.

    Bersas also have the slide stop that's missing on the PPK design.

    Lipseys sells a tutone for $294.

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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Bersas also have the slide stop that's missing on the PPK design.
    PPKs don't lock the slide back?

  15. #14
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    PPKs don't lock the slide back?
    An empty mag locks the PPK slide back. To close the action, you rack the slide.

  16. #15
    themayer78's Avatar
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    Kenn, I'm glad to hear you have not had problems with your T Mil. I wouldn't tell someone that I think Taurus makes bad guns, I'm just hesitant to spend my hard earned money on one after reading about all of the problems other T Mil owners have had. Which model do you have? How many rounds so far? And no probs at all for you? No FTF or FTE at all?


    My Dad has a PPK/S .380. Definitely a high quality gun. I don't like shooting it because the slide cuts my hand and the sights are just awful. I know this gun won't be for me but I want to be able to enjoy shooting it too! I didn't even know they made a PPK in 9mm, interesting. We looked at the Bersa PPK replica, she liked the way it felt but had trouble racking the slide although come to think of it I think she had a much easier time of it when she pulled the hammer down first. We will be going to a local gun store that almost always has just about every gun made in stock. Too bad their prices are ridiculous, good place to browse though.

    Ben

  17. #16
    themayer78's Avatar
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    Yes, the PPK slide does lock with an empty mag.

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    Okay, so the slide locks back on an empty mag, but you can't manually activate a slide catch when you rack the slide? That's stupid. On the XD you have to use the slide catch to turn the takedown lever for a field strip.

  19. #18
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by themayer78 View Post
    I didn't even know they made a PPK in 9mm
    Ben,

    PPK is available in .32ACP or .380ACP. .380ACP is also known as 9mm kurz aka 9mm Browning short aka 9mm corto. .380ACP is 9x17mm.

    Most of us talking about 9mm rounds are usually referring to 9mm Luger (Parabellum) which is 9x19mm.

    Many calibers have a 9mm diameter but different lengths and the brass is a different between revolver and auto ammo.

    .380ACP should not be confused with .38Super or .38Special or .38S&W. or .38 Long Colt or .38 Short Colt.

    Nor should 9mm Luger be confused with 9mm Makarov or 9mm Kurz.

  20. #19
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    Okay, so the slide locks back on an empty mag, but you can't manually activate a slide catch when you rack the slide? That's stupid. On the XD you have to use the slide catch to turn the takedown lever for a field strip.
    The PPK is the compact version of the Walther PP - ie. PP Kurz. The PP was introduced in 1929 (PPK 1931) and has been continuously manufactured since. PPK is the standard for small concealable semi. For years, the only real competition was the Mauser HSc but it was only available in .32 until the 70s. Neither has a slide stop.

    To field strip a PPK, you set the safety, lower the triggerguard and pull the slide back and off. The barrel is fixed in the frame and the recoil spring is coaxial to the barrel.

  21. #20
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by themayer78 View Post
    trouble racking the slide although come to think of it I think she had a much easier time of it when she pulled the hammer down first.
    Generally, the smaller the gun the stiffer the recoil spring. Deal with it.

    DA/SA guns have a heavier DA trigger pull (hammer on slide) although PPK is one of the heaviest.

    When I got my wife her PPK she had the same difficulty. Here's what works:

    Slide - grasp the grip in right hand (finger outside triggerguard!). With left hand, grasp the slide serrations FROM THE TOP OF THE SLIDE. Her arms should form an 'O' rather than a 'V'. Rotate her body so the pistol points downrange. Rather than pulling the slide, 'hug' the gun and the slide should rack easier.

    DA trigger - Most people fail to practise this in training with a DA/SA gun (after reload, hammer is back ready for SA trigger) Have her exhale when squeezing the trigger. A lot of people hold their breath when shooting. If this doesn't work and you are truly training her for self defense, have her Ki-ai (karate scream) when squeezing the trigger. Not only will this give her more strength to operate the trigger, it will make her look psycho - hopefully adding discouragement to the bad guy.

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