Notice CorBon was hottest of the HP and only one that expaned every time.
Also notice that S&B Ball was very hot and had same engery Ftlbs as Corbon. I shoot both and they wake 32 up
If I wanted ball for carry I would look at S&B .
The WW cone is junk. Also same OAL as most hp and can cause rim lock in KT

Originally Posted by michael t

Notice CorBon was hottest of the HP and only one that expaned every time.
Also notice that S&B Ball was very hot and had same engery Ftlbs as Corbon. I shoot both and they wake 32 up
If I wanted ball for carry I would look at S&B .
The WW cone is junk. Also same OAL as most hp and can cause rim lock in KT

Yea... The Winchester he used in his tests are not the same kind that they sell now - the newer ones have a flat tip.

I use Fiochi FMJ. They had were tied with the prev incarnation of the Winchester round for the most penetration.

This ballistics stuff is interesting but I have a question.
Does anyone know how the density of gelatin compares to a human body?

I’ve seen some tests done on animals that I think are more realistic, after all if you have any real interest in penetration, expansion etc it’s not because you intend to shot a block of jello in self defense, is it? I may be wrong.

When I see them mix the stuff up on Mythbusters, they claim that it has the same density as human flesh.

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

When I see them mix the stuff up on Mythbusters, they claim that it has the same density as human flesh.

I’ve never seen the show. I guess my first question for them though, would be; how do you define human flesh? And when you say “has the same density as human flesh”, are you accounting for skin, muscle, cartilage, bone etc?

I think ballistics tests are great for source weapon ID, but for proving the effectiveness of any particular ammunition, I really don’t know. I won’t deny it’s at least a bit of good information.

The Jello is the standerd test for firearms. Even Uncle Sam uses it. Animals all react different same with people. The Jello evens the playing field so all brands can be tested under same conditions. Must be pretty close a lot of the results have been same on street.

Originally Posted by michael t

The Jello is the standerd test for firearms. Even Uncle Sam uses it. Animals all react different same with people. The Jello evens the playing field so all brands can be tested under same conditions. Must be pretty close a lot of the results have been same on street.

That makes sense.

Thought this could help the 32 Keltec owners here, in case U missed this thread...

I carry Winchester hardball in my P32.

15" of penatration should do the trick and no rimlock!!

Thanks I am looking at a Kel-tec 32 for Summer carry here in Texas and for my mountian bike riding and walking.

Originally Posted by Deltaboy1984

Thanks I am looking at a Kel-tec 32 for Summer carry here in Texas and for my mountian bike riding and walking.

Not to be an ass......but why would you be contemplating this weapon? Especially when they make the P3AT. Virtually the same price, same size, same weight.....more stoping power.

Just a question.

the purpose of both of these weapons is up close and personal last resort defense. I would rather have something more controllable and one more shot. a .32acp 73gr solid will go straight though someones skull especially if shoved under their nose or in their eyesocket. Don't flame somone for their choice, it is theirs to make for their own reasons. Many people, myself included don't like the recoil on the P3at and I know I wouldn't practice as much if I had that. Just my .02

Originally Posted by nukehayes

the purpose of both of these weapons is up close and personal last resort defense. I would rather have something more controllable and one more shot. a .32acp 73gr solid will go straight though someones skull especially if shoved under their nose or in their eyesocket. Don't flame somone for their choice, it is theirs to make for their own reasons. Many people, myself included don't like the recoil on the P3at and I know I wouldn't practice as much if I had that. Just my .02

There was absolutely no flaming going on. Hence the...not to be an ass....comment. The .32 acp is still a peppy round to shoot.....so I don't see why you would sacrifice a fair amount of stopping power (which even the .380 is not the best at anyway) to get a weapon with an extra round.....that is easier to shoot at the range. Neither one of them is a range gun....and there is not a whole great deal of practice needed to shoot these weapons in the manner of which they were intended. They are both a point and shoot weapon. Make sure the thing is properly broke in, and shoot it every so often.....and forget about it. It will be there for you when you need it.

Also, who's to say that you will be able to shove the gun under the bad guys nose, or in their eyesocket.

The .32 is still better than slapping the bad guy to death......but, I would recommend beeing just a hair more uncomfortable while shooting, and get the P3AT.

To each his own I guess. Sorry if I sounded a little mean, I still don't understand why people argue over what caliber is better, as long as the person carrying it feels comfortable in his/her ability to accurately put rounds on target, then go with what you want.

Hmmm...I guess my P32 has the stopping power of feather.

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

When I see them mix the stuff up on Mythbusters, they claim that it has the same density as human flesh.

this is correct! i love that show!

Originally Posted by Mr. P

I’ve never seen the show. I guess my first question for them though, would be; how do you define human flesh? And when you say “has the same density as human flesh”, are you accounting for skin, muscle, cartilage, bone etc?

I think ballistics tests are great for source weapon ID, but for proving the effectiveness of any particular ammunition, I really don’t know. I won’t deny it’s at least a bit of good information.

dude, you're missing out!!! that show rocks! you do bring up a good point, but in reading further, i see that its more of a standard of measure.

Originally Posted by nukehayes

To each his own I guess. Sorry if I sounded a little mean, I still don't understand why people argue over what caliber is better, as long as the person carrying it feels comfortable in his/her ability to accurately put rounds on target, then go with what you want.

precisely why i went with the P32. its very comfortable in my hands, not much recoil, and i was able to easily cluster my shots while rapid firing. for such a short barrel, its still pretty darn accurate.

Originally Posted by nukehayes

To each his own I guess. Sorry if I sounded a little mean, I still don't understand why people argue over what caliber is better, as long as the person carrying it feels comfortable in his/her ability to accurately put rounds on target, then go with what you want.

I'm with you.

It seems that everyone wants to carry a cannon.

There may be a Dirty Harry disease going
around.

It seems they are planning on a shoot out with
all the power and extra mags and so on.

I like to see the pics of guns that are suppose
to be their carry guns. But, why do they usually
look like they just came off the store shelve or
out of a pimp house?

I carry anything from a 22Mag to a Remington
12 gauge pump.

There is a down side to any weapon. It don't
take a genius to run any weapon down and
try and talk people into what they don't want,
and out of what they do want.

I mean, I'll go Dirty Harry one better.....

real stopping power is a 50 cal BMG.

No, wait, it's a 30 mm!!!

That's knock into a mist and fragments.

So, chunk your 45's and 357's, they ain't
near big enough,,, lol

Tabdog

My main criteria for the 32cal is at least 12 inches of penetration. I've opted for the Fiocchi 60 JHP. It seems to barely expand but it makes it 13.3 inches with at least a minimal amount of expansion. I'd go hardball as a second option.

Originally Posted by tabdog

. . . So, chunk your 45's and 357's, they ain't
near big enough,,, lol

Tabdog

I think I am qualified to "bridge the entire gap" here.

My "low end" mouse gun is a Beretta Tomcat (.32 Auto). I think the tilt barrel concept is a "bit of sound engineering".
I've carried the Tomcat concealed once this year (summer). That would be to a place I thought having a weapon made good sense.
But, it was also a place where I definitely did not want to be printed. Carrying this gun is below my comfort level if it's ever needed.

My "top of the range" wilderness/mountain open carry gun is a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454 Casull. The near ultimate 2 1/2" barrel super snubby.
In AZ I could legally open carry it in public places. I never have and I never will. That would be pretty stupid showoff stuff. But, it is a "comfort" in lion and Black bear country.

In between I try for what I think is a viable and sensible concealed carry weapon. YMMV, obviously.
Last year it was a S&W 642 (concealed hammer) Airweight revolver in .38 Special +P. With Crimson Trace laser grips. Nice gun. Five shots. "No reload". Not happy with IWB holster(s).

This year it is a Sig Sauer P290 "sub-compact 9mm" semi-auto. With 1 + 8 rd. mag. And 6 rd. reload. Both in a very small belt pouch instead of a holster. Works well.
I use it cross-draw, and it's easy to access seated in my car. So far I've never had anyone "alert" on this pouch. Not even uniformed security people or LEO's.

I like the Tomcat .32 Auto. It's fun to shoot and easy to carry. But lot of folks and I think 9mm is a very significant and worthwhile "step up" in stopping power.

Originally Posted by Mr. P

This ballistics stuff is interesting but I have a question.
Does anyone know how the density of gelatin compares to a human body?

I’ve seen some tests done on animals that I think are more realistic, after all if you have any real interest in penetration, expansion etc it’s not because you intend to shot a block of jello in self defense, is it? I may be wrong.

I have absolutely no expertise in analyzing the relative "ability" of various calibers, let alone various bullet designs within a caliber.

But, I do have a mechanical engineering degree. And I spent 31 years analyzing "complex systems", both in tests and in field performance data. OK, it was automotive safety stuff.

So, I'll just say my belief is that "ballistic gelatine" is just a method of trying to eliminate a vast variety of factors that affect how a given caliber/bullet design will perform in real life.
This is "necessary" for comparison. There is just no way that real life factors can be properly analyzed to separate their individual contributions to "real life stopping power".
Even the concept of utilizing live primates (say apes or chimps) to properly separate "factors" can't be done. It would require thousands of animal deaths.

Even one death would not be politically correct. Or, in my personal opinion, it would not be ethical. If you don't know, more than a hundred years ago tests were performed on
human cadavers suspended by the neck, and also on live steers. "A series of up to 10 shots were fired into the lung or intestinal area of the animal after which it was humanely dispatched."

"In 1991 a privately funded group was formed to study the physiological effects of bullet impact on medium-sized animals. These are now known as the Strasbourg tests. These tests were
politically very sensitive in nature as the animals were shot whilst in a conscious condition."

Here is one of the very best (and relatively short) discussions of these tests, gelatine, Major Hatcher's development of his "Relative Stopping Power" calculation, Evan Marshall's 15 year
collection of actual shooting data and his analysis of "one-shot stops".

Bullet performance and wounding capabilities Ballistics

Have fun !

Wow, this is a blast from the past - I forgot about that Golden Loki site

Originally Posted by Mr. P

This ballistics stuff is interesting but I have a question.
Does anyone know how the density of gelatin compares to a human body?

I’ve seen some tests done on animals that I think are more realistic, after all if you have any real interest in penetration, expansion etc it’s not because you intend to shot a block of jello in self defense, is it? I may be wrong.

I read an article (it would take a bit to locate it again) and they compared the penetration and wound cavity of ballistic gel with actual bullet-shot cadavers.

The conclusion was that the AVERAGE penetration and the AVERAGE wound cavity were exactly equal to the ballistic gel results. But the actual penetration varied by ± 3". So if the ballistic gel indicated that the wound penetration was 8" the actual penetration would be between 5" and 11", depending upon what the bullet hit on the way in.

It appears that the ballistic gel is as representative of the human body as is possible for a fully homogeneous medium.

What if you encounter a 400 lb guy jacked up on meth running at you. You don't have time to line up your sites take careful aim and gently pull the trigger. Reality if you manage to get your gun out without wetting your pants you are not going to take the time to make certain you place the shots that is why I will not carry less than 9mm and that round is a plus p 124 short barrel Gold Dot. We dropped 1500 lb cattle with a 22 between the eyes but the cow wasn't packing. A 32 is not much more effective than a 22 mag.

I don't mean to rip the owner of the 32. Recently we had a Utah Highway patrolman get involved in a shoot out at very close range with a bad guy and he fired 33 rounds and most of the shots missed. This guy is trained but when faced with life or death you ate not going to take the time to make certain the shots are placed in critical areas of the body. We will all start shooting without aiming just like the trained officer that is why I believe a light load would not be wise when most of the shots will be misses.