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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. P View Post
    This ballistics stuff is interesting but I have a question.
    Does anyone know how the density of gelatin compares to a human body?

    Iíve seen some tests done on animals that I think are more realistic, after all if you have any real interest in penetration, expansion etc itís not because you intend to shot a block of jello in self defense, is it? I may be wrong.
    I have absolutely no expertise in analyzing the relative "ability" of various calibers, let alone various bullet designs within a caliber.

    But, I do have a mechanical engineering degree. And I spent 31 years analyzing "complex systems", both in tests and in field performance data. OK, it was automotive safety stuff.

    So, I'll just say my belief is that "ballistic gelatine" is just a method of trying to eliminate a vast variety of factors that affect how a given caliber/bullet design will perform in real life.
    This is "necessary" for comparison. There is just no way that real life factors can be properly analyzed to separate their individual contributions to "real life stopping power".
    Even the concept of utilizing live primates (say apes or chimps) to properly separate "factors" can't be done. It would require thousands of animal deaths.

    Even one death would not be politically correct. Or, in my personal opinion, it would not be ethical. If you don't know, more than a hundred years ago tests were performed on
    human cadavers suspended by the neck, and also on live steers. "A series of up to 10 shots were fired into the lung or intestinal area of the animal after which it was humanely dispatched."

    "In 1991 a privately funded group was formed to study the physiological effects of bullet impact on medium-sized animals. These are now known as the Strasbourg tests. These tests were
    politically very sensitive in nature as the animals were shot whilst in a conscious condition."

    Here is one of the very best (and relatively short) discussions of these tests, gelatine, Major Hatcher's development of his "Relative Stopping Power" calculation, Evan Marshall's 15 year
    collection of actual shooting data and his analysis of "one-shot stops".

    Bullet performance and wounding capabilities Ballistics

    Have fun !

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  3. #22
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    Wow, this is a blast from the past - I forgot about that Golden Loki site

  4. #23
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. P View Post
    This ballistics stuff is interesting but I have a question.
    Does anyone know how the density of gelatin compares to a human body?

    Iíve seen some tests done on animals that I think are more realistic, after all if you have any real interest in penetration, expansion etc itís not because you intend to shot a block of jello in self defense, is it? I may be wrong.
    I read an article (it would take a bit to locate it again) and they compared the penetration and wound cavity of ballistic gel with actual bullet-shot cadavers.

    The conclusion was that the AVERAGE penetration and the AVERAGE wound cavity were exactly equal to the ballistic gel results. But the actual penetration varied by Ī 3". So if the ballistic gel indicated that the wound penetration was 8" the actual penetration would be between 5" and 11", depending upon what the bullet hit on the way in.

    It appears that the ballistic gel is as representative of the human body as is possible for a fully homogeneous medium.

  5. #24
    Russ is offline Banned
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    What if you encounter a 400 lb guy jacked up on meth running at you. You don't have time to line up your sites take careful aim and gently pull the trigger. Reality if you manage to get your gun out without wetting your pants you are not going to take the time to make certain you place the shots that is why I will not carry less than 9mm and that round is a plus p 124 short barrel Gold Dot. We dropped 1500 lb cattle with a 22 between the eyes but the cow wasn't packing. A 32 is not much more effective than a 22 mag.

  6. #25
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    I don't mean to rip the owner of the 32. Recently we had a Utah Highway patrolman get involved in a shoot out at very close range with a bad guy and he fired 33 rounds and most of the shots missed. This guy is trained but when faced with life or death you ate not going to take the time to make certain the shots are placed in critical areas of the body. We will all start shooting without aiming just like the trained officer that is why I believe a light load would not be wise when most of the shots will be misses.

  7. #26
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Training will overcome most of the issues. When I carried a Beretta .25 I practiced "lacing up" the bad guy target.

    That meant the first shot to the thorax, the next shot about 4" higher. A shot to the throat and a shot between the chin and the eyebrows (thinner bones there). That is 4 shots, and you are just raising the sights after the first one. With practice it becomes almost automatic.

    I think that four rounds placed as I described it will stop a 400 pound bad guy. You can always double up on the throat shot--but that leaves you short for the 2nd assailant.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    Training will overcome most of the issues. When I carried a Beretta .25 I practiced "lacing up" the bad guy target.

    That meant the first shot to the thorax, the next shot about 4" higher. A shot to the throat and a shot between the chin and the eyebrows (thinner bones there). That is 4 shots, and you are just raising the sights after the first one. With practice it becomes almost automatic.

    I think that four rounds placed as I described it will stop a 400 pound bad guy. You can always double up on the throat shot--but that leaves you short for the 2nd assailant.
    Could you do that on a moving/falling target? I'm good, but I don't know if I'm that good.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by berettatoter View Post
    Could you do that on a moving/falling target? I'm good, but I don't know if I'm that good.
    I don't think you are going to have to be "that good"; you will have to remain level-headed and that is a bigger issue.

    If a guy is going to hold you up (try dressing better and it will increase your chances of being held up) he will be standing right in front of you with a knife drawn and he will be 3 to 6 feet away. He won't see the weapon until you start shooting and you can get off 4 rounds of .25 in about 2 seconds--quicker than he will be able to dive to the ground.

    The same will hold true if he is trying to car-jack you (drive a nicer car and it will increase your chances here too ); he will be 3 to 6 feet away and right in front of you. Or he will be standing at an open window with a knife in his hand. In that case put all 4 rounds into his face and neck. I suspect that would disrupt his chain of thought.

    The same thing would apply to rapists (assuming the gun owner was a woman). The same 3 to 6 feet in front of her, or held by the neck from behind. A level head is the primary requirement. Hitting the subject is a given at the distances involved. But from behind I would much prefer a revolver like the S & W 351C as you can press the barrel right up to the bad guy and know that the weapon will fire. You cannot be sure of that with a semi-auto.

    As civilians we are not expected to get into firefights like the police do; and we might be afoul the law if we do. I think the close up and personal shootings will be the norm.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    I don't think you are going to have to be "that good"; you will have to remain level-headed and that is a bigger issue.

    If a guy is going to hold you up (try dressing better and it will increase your chances of being held up) he will be standing right in front of you with a knife drawn and he will be 3 to 6 feet away. He won't see the weapon until you start shooting and you can get off 4 rounds of .25 in about 2 seconds--quicker than he will be able to dive to the ground.

    The same will hold true if he is trying to car-jack you (drive a nicer car and it will increase your chances here too ); he will be 3 to 6 feet away and right in front of you. Or he will be standing at an open window with a knife in his hand. In that case put all 4 rounds into his face and neck. I suspect that would disrupt his chain of thought.

    The same thing would apply to rapists (assuming the gun owner was a woman). The same 3 to 6 feet in front of her, or held by the neck from behind. A level head is the primary requirement. Hitting the subject is a given at the distances involved. But from behind I would much prefer a revolver like the S & W 351C as you can press the barrel right up to the bad guy and know that the weapon will fire. You cannot be sure of that with a semi-auto.

    As civilians we are not expected to get into firefights like the police do; and we might be afoul the law if we do. I think the close up and personal shootings will be the norm.
    Well, I guess at arms length I could probably get that done. I had a .25 auto once, but after reading the ballistics of that round, I decided to trade it off for a larger caliber. Don't get me wrong here, I would not want to get shot with a BB(did), but the .25 ACP is pretty anemic. I guess at arms length though, it would get the job done.

  11. #30
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    ... A 32 is not much more effective than a 22 mag.
    Energy-wise they are nearly identical.

    S & W 351C revolver weighs in at 10.2 ounces and shoots 8 rounds of 22 magnum. A nice light weight and reliable alternative to the .32 auto.

    (As reliable as rimfire ammo is, at any rate.)

  12. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    Energy-wise they are nearly identical.

    S & W 351C revolver weighs in at 10.2 ounces and shoots 8 rounds of 22 magnum. A nice light weight and reliable alternative to the .32 auto.

    (As reliable as rimfire ammo is, at any rate.)
    That is the only issue I have with using rimfire ammo for self defense. If the balloon goes up, I don't want to hear a "click" instead of a "bang". JMHO.

  13. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by berettatoter View Post
    That is the only issue I have with using rimfire ammo for self defense. If the balloon goes up, I don't want to hear a "click" instead of a "bang". JMHO.
    Rim fire ammo is cheap, and there is some really cheaply made rim fire ammo out there. But high quality rimfire is pretty reliable. CCI/Speer just came out with a .22 magnum designed for self defense from a short barreled handgun. CCI/Speer rimfire ammo is good quality and should be quite reliable.

    You do have 8 rounds to shoot so you can keep pulling the trigger even if you get a dud.

  14. #33
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    "Spray and Pray Baby." If that same officer had used a 357 magnum revolver, he would have more than likely made more hits on target. Tactics and training beat firepower most of the time.

  15. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    Rim fire ammo is cheap, and there is some really cheaply made rim fire ammo out there. But high quality rimfire is pretty reliable. CCI/Speer just came out with a .22 magnum designed for self defense from a short barreled handgun. CCI/Speer rimfire ammo is good quality and should be quite reliable.

    You do have 8 rounds to shoot so you can keep pulling the trigger even if you get a dud.
    Well yeah, if you have a .22 revolver. I don't have a .22 revolver, so if I hear "click" then I have to rack the slide. Your correct about CCI's, I shoot them probably more than any other brand.

  16. #35
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    Look, folks. I have been at this business awhile, and have carried a gun for a living (private security). I have held people at gunpoint (not fun) and have taken them into custody. (I was glad when the police had arrived to cart them off).

    Don't sell the .32 ACP short. The biggest benefit is using the pistol in it's larger incarnations. In a true "pocket pistol" either the Buffalo Bore 75-grain +p loading or the 73-grain Fiocchi FMJ will be your best bet. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT delude yourself into believing that a JHP in this cartridge will ever be to your benefit! In the .32 ACP or the .380 ACP, PENETRATION IS YOUR BEST FRIEND AND ALLY! These cartridges are hampered from the outset by reduced velocity in their abbreviated barrels DON'T put "speed brakes" on them! I have a friend that is an attorney in Albuquerque New Mexico, and works regularly with the County Coroner. Of all the .32 ACP and .380 ACP shootings that he has encountered, ball ammunition is the most effective and "stops the action" more than any other sold, or used. The street shootings bear the factual evidence.

    That said, the .32 is more controllable and more accurate in smaller auto pistols. Even in "pocket pistols" (Pistols with barrels between 3 and 4 inches) the .32 shoots more easily and accurately under "stressfire" conditions. The ability to place shots accurately under these conditions is key.

    I can shoot my FIE Titan II (Guisseppe Tanfoglio of Brecia, Italy) .32 ACP with extreme accuracy. "Mozambique" drills are easily accomplished, and the 73-grain Fiocchi FMJ pills go precisely where I wish.

    Generally speaking, the mere presence of a handgun is sufficient to deter most aggressors. I haven't fired a shot in anger, but I know I am capable of "stopping" an assailant whether I am shooting my Titan II, or my Glock 20 in 10mm Auto. It is all a matter of mindset.

    (BTW, I routinely carry a Kel-Tec P-11 beneath my sport coat at work).

    Scott

  17. #36
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    DO NOT use Buffalo Bore 75-grain +p ammunition in the Kel-tec P-32. within an average of 20 rounds, you will bend the recoil spring and damage the frame. Your best bet is to use the Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ ammunition. 2.7" of barrel is terribly short for building up a "full head of steam". (You need all the velocity/energy that the cartridge can muster)!

    Scott

  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    When I see them mix the stuff up on Mythbusters, they claim that it has the same density as human flesh.
    Yes and no. The "average" for human flesh is the same as the gel. But parts of the body are much lower in density and other parts have bone and are much higher. It is the best medium we have, and it gives relative scores that are entirely acccurate. But it may or may not relate to the real world of human flesh.

    I think that the expanded bullets are not always going to expand. You need about 950 fps for a normal hp to expand. If you make the hp fragile enough it can expand at lower speeds but at what cost?

    With a .25 or a .32 I think I would stick with ball. I think penetration is key with these marginal calibers, especially in the winter when heavy clothing will offer a bit more protection.

    We used to practice "stitching up" with small caliber hand guns. To "stitch up" a bad guy your first shot goes in the lower center of mass (just below the sternum), and each successive shot goes about 3" higher. One shot should end up in the throat, and one in the mouth. I would always try to shift an inch or two to the side so as to go in the eye rather than the skull (paper targets, not real people).

    I still think that "stitching up" is the most effective way to use a marginal caliber weapon. The first shot is point shooting in the center of mass, the additional shots require more accuracy and more precise aiming.

    In each case I would be aiming for soft tissue, avoiding the sternum and the skull.

  19. #38
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    Be aware that this thread is originally six years old. However, I did originally state that FMJ is a better choice in 32 than JHP. And, I was using fiochi FMJ at the time.

    I no longer have that 32, however. I avoided a near robbery in a parking lot, and all I had in my pocket was that little keltec that day. After that, I switched to a micro 9mm and sold that little 32. I didn't like feeling that the little 32 was all I had that day

  20. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Be aware that this thread is originally six years old. However, I did originally state that FMJ is a better choice in 32 than JHP. And, I was using fiochi FMJ at the time.

    I no longer have that 32, however. I avoided a near robbery in a parking lot, and all I had in my pocket was that little keltec that day. After that, I switched to a micro 9mm and sold that little 32. I didn't like feeling that the little 32 was all I had that day
    I know what you mean. I used to carry the Beretta Tomcat all the time, but decided to up-gun to the 9mm myself. I would rather have a .32 ACP than my fist, but if I have the choice, I'll go with the larger catridge.

  21. #40
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    I carry a S & W 340PD (12.6 ounces empty) in my pocket all the time. I have 4 rounds of .38+P and one round of .357 in it.

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