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My p 3AT has a mag of 6 plus 1 in the chamber. Should it be carried that way or with 6 in the mag none chambered? Is the time it takes to chamber one really significant? My buddy said if you dont have time to rack the slide, you are in deep shit. I think the first trigger pull is strong enough to make the chambered load safe. If I am in deep shit, I dont want to worry about a good rack. Opinions please.
When I carry my P3AT there is always one in the chamber. The trigger pull is more than adequate, IMO, to prevent a ND; even when I am just using the clip and have it attached to a pair of running shorts. I agree with your buddy that in most SD situations, you are not going to have time to chamber a round. If you carry a gun without a round in the chamber, you might as well just carry a rock and save yourself the licensing hassles.
What Todd said.
If you are going to carry it unchambered you might as well leave it at home. Most self defense situations happen very fast and up close.
The P3AT is perfectly safe to carry in battery, just practice keeping your finger off the trigger during the draw (this applies no matter what type of firearm you're packing).
While I cannot tell you what methods are right or wrong for you to carry, I can tell you I am in a very small minority among concealed weapon carriers; I carry without one in the chamber. Provided with this admission I should point out I train to rack the slide on my draw and I must confess this does cost time and adds what most consider an unnecessary and potentially dangerous step. If I was in a profession which required a sidearm, I would carry with the chamber loaded as most duty holsters have a real secure lock on firearms while holstered, but I am banking on the notion a CCW will buy me the time I need because it is in fact concealed.
The real questions you have to ask yourself are whether or not the additional 0.5-1 seconds is going to cost you more than time, and if you are comfortable with this.
Now let me apply the Vaseline as I'm sure I'm going to get reamed for this... :buttkick:
My suggestion for anyone who doesn't carry with a round in the chamber is to enlist the help of a spouse or friend (preferably someone who has a bit of speed and isn't the definition of couch potato), ensure multiple times the gun is empty and there is not a round of live ammo any where near, and do some Teuller Drills. No cheating. You have to draw from your ordinary mode of concealment. Then, do some full-contact scenarios. Have the person wrestle with you, doing everything they can to hang onto your arms, like your were being attacked from behind. Can you draw your gun and chamber a round, under stress, one-handed? If you can "beat" the Teuller and also chamber a round one-handed, then by all means go with the empty chamber. If not ..... no need to repeat myself.
Assuming I only have one hand available, I've been taught to rack the slide using rear sights against my belt. I practice this quite frequently, and I am not ashamed to say I amuse myself every time I practice it :D Still, you do bring up a very eye-opening scenario which is if they are in hand-to-hand distance prior to even reaching for the CCW. Having a round chambered is huge here, I will fully admit, but if they are already on top of me and having even a slight amount of success in incapacitating me, tying up my arm(s) or whatever, I think reaching for a firearm might be the wrong thing to do.... I would must rather focus on getting him off me first: gouge an eye, bite, smash his nose, go for the junk, anything. I would be afraid of showing him I have a weapon and him getting to it before I do, because if he is stronger, faster, and has the jump on me, I need to do something to buy me enough time to draw, chambered or not. To do otherwise and I might as well just hand him the weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
I'll give it a go with some friends and we'll see how I do. Probably not well... LOL.
Learn through experience. It was 3 AM. I was outside with my dog. I live in a remote area. I had my p3at in my pocket. Suddenly, my dog went crazy barking at a noise in the shadows. I reached for my gun and realized many of you were right. I didn't have one in the chamber. The gun was useless until I put down the dogs leash, and racked the slide in the dark. If I really needed the gun, I was in trouble. It took to long to do this. In the chamber from now on.
We had this discussion in her a while back and it got me to asking the people I know carry. Asking what they do if they don't have a chambered round. I found three people that didn't chamber a round or carry "Israeli" as two of them corrected me:smt083 (I kind of think they use the term because it sounds cool)and one was telling me basically what literaltrance said training using a belt the other two informed me that there would be plenty of time to rack a slide and they would be able to get two hands free.
I wont say the belt thing would not work though I'd be a little worried about relying on my belt being able to properly load my weapon while I was trying to keep some guy off me. I've unfortunately seen first hand that things in a SD situation happen a lot more fast than most would expect. I tried to do the one hand slide thing and while it can be done I worry about adding a lot more stress that I could possibly train for being I don't always have a second person to gram and try to wrestle me to the ground while I'm trying to rack a slide one handed. And that would be what you would need to train for that situation to make me truly comfortable with that.
I'm with Todd on this. The simple truth is when you carry with an un-chambered weapon you are carrying an unloaded weapon. There is no way that you can say that you will have the time or the available hands, belt, whatever to make it work. You are adding a variable to the situation that is not necessary and possible dangerous. If you cannot carry your weapon loaded then you need to train more, get a weapon that will allow you to feel safe carrying ti fully loaded, or contemplate the idea of not carrying a firearm.
There is a reason you don't carry hair trigger weapons for a daily driver. Because it is not as safe. It's why they design combat weapons with a heavier or longer trigger or both. To take the idea of a AD or ND out of that equation. I have not uses the weapon mentioned on the OPs post but from what I've read it's set up as a pocket carry weapon. The trigger is not a target trigger and that's for a reason. You should be able to carry it chambered. If you can't then you have to come to terms that you are carrying an unloaded weapon and you will need time to properly load it so it can be a useful weapon. An unloaded firearm is not a useful tool in the situation for which ti was designed. It's just an accessory on your belt until you make it useful.
That in itself would make me rethink wanting to go through the trouble of carrying it at all. Let alone taking the steps to do it legally.
BTW: That whole "Israeli" carry thing was not done by properly trained police. That was done by citizens that volunteered to act as police and had several different weapons that would e available to them from the police. They would go in the beginning of the day and sign out a weapon. It was easier to carry it that way than to train these people to use any one of several types that they might have to choose from. So carrying "Israeli" style was considered a necessary evil for people that were not properly trained to use the weapon(s) that they might have that day.
If you are that concerned about carrying a round in the chamber with your semi auto pistol, you might want to consider carrying a revolver. Revolvers are very safe and reliable and they can be fired from inside your pocket if necessary.
So can autos, just ask Plaxico Burress. :anim_lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by wampus
I ALWAYS have one in the chamber. If and when a situation presents it's self, you won't have time to draw your weapon and chamber a round.
maybe u should just carry a big rock, that will do u more good then a unchambered pistol,I carry with a round chambered, and with the keltec and its forever trigger pull I feel more then safe. FYI I gave up on my glock because I felt that it had a hair trigger compared to most double action autos.
Choosing not to carry a loaded chamber in a modern gun is an example of ignorance (no insult intended) or irrational fear.
Ignorance would come from not knowing the design of the gun and it inability to go off without pulling the trigger.
Irrational fear would come in if you are aware of the safety features and still choose to follow the anachronistic carry in an empty chamber This would be like disconnecting the battery on you car because you feel it might start without placing the key in the ignition.
A typical .380 round will travel around 800 fps. That means it will move 400 feet in your .5 second. Do you expect your attacker to be outside of that range? A typical law enforcement gunfight occurs within 3 yards (per FBI). A typical civilian gunfight occurs within touching distance (a person can’t stab, rape or hit you from 3 yards).
Our opponent gets to choose the time, place and circumstance of our engagement. We are already behind the time curve in a life and death struggle. We are reacting to a threat. ½ a second is a VERY LONG time.
Cary a safe gun. Cary it in a holster designed for THAT gun (ensure the design covers the trigger). Carry the gun in a ready condition.
Get professional training.
wait a minute...it was never in his pocket, it was in his waist band and slipped down into his pants leg, he pulled the trigger trying to move it back to his waist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
If it had been in his pocket, or a holster, it never would have happened.
I am so tempted to send him a $25.00 IWB clip on holster with a note advising that a $25.00 would have saved him millions.
Don't try this at home!Quote:
Originally Posted by wampus
Yes, I know they do this in books and in the movies. But they do it only in the author's imagination in books, and only by using special-effects toys in the movies.
All you'll get is one shot, before pocket cloth fouls the action. Also, you might want to keep in mind the old "knock, knock" joke that all young boys love:
Knock, knock.
—Who's there?
Bisquick.
—Bisquick who?
Bisquick...Your pants are on fire!
:anim_lol:
And some jail time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Padawan
yes sir...with a revolver, the muzzle isn't the only place hot- high pressure gas comes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
:anim_lol: :anim_lol: :anim_lol:
Thanks, Bruce.
A (video) picture is worth a thousand words.
Now just think what would happen to your own hot dog if you were to fire a revolver in your pocket. OUCH!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce333
im in aggreeance with everyone else, one in the chamber
The Kel-Tec LONG trigger pull similar to a revolver means you keep one in the tube.
After reading some of the views on this subject. I prefer the thought of a loaded weapon over a rock any day!!!!
Short guns hot, long guns not.....
Like one of the posters above said, make sure your holster covers the trigger, and run it in battery. (love that term!)
I use a GURU wallet holster for mine and pocket carry. Never put anything else in that pocket.
I will not desparage one's choice of how to carry, and agree that many practice racking a slide, one handed, using the sights against a belt or pants pocket etc.
The only point i would make here is.. the question was regarding the kelt-p3at. HOW would one use THOSE sights to rack the slide?? Sure, makes sense (if i chose to do so) with my cz-82, keltec p-11, 1911 etc.
Just something more tho think on and make your own choice.