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  1. #26
    cclaxton's Avatar
    cclaxton is offline Member
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    I agree that some level of competency is needed to operate a automatic handgun. But, why shouldn't I expect a personal protection device be easy enough to use in most cases?
    In short, why shouldn't a handgun be expected to work even with limpwristing?
    I have the same question about ammo: Why shouldn't we expect all ammo of a particular caliber to work in a modern auto pistol?
    Thanks,

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  3. #27
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    recoilguy is offline Senior Member
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    Why shouldn't a car stop on an icy road before it smashes into a phone pole even if you put on the brakes, why doesn't E85 work in all cars?

    Because machines are influence by outside factors, and some machines are designed only to work properly only under certian conditions.

    If you want a handgun that works when limp wristed buy a nice Ruger revolver.

    The blame for crap ammo not working in all guns or good ammo not working crap guns lies equally in the ammo as in the weapon. The question should be why can't we expect all Ammo manufactures to make ammo of suficent quality to work in all modern guns. True they are not all designed the same nor do they all feed from the same angle have the same size mag wells the same # mag spring . The answer is because then it wouldn't be cheap and people like cheap alot! Cheap ammo works great in Kel Tecs.......with their very loose tolerances and workmanship that barely qualifies as such. However they go bang, they don't weigh much, and they are cheap. So folks will defend them and blame a quality made ammo for not working in a crappy gun. Others spend big bucks on a weapon and buy 8 buck a box aluminum greasy ammo with varied OAL's and visible grease on them and wonder why they won't work in a gun made for quality, consistant ammo. If you want something to work under all conditions you must give up something else. If you buy something designed sopecifically to work under certian condition and they don't work under others, ones objections are not valid and amounts to no more then whinning. Know what you are buying, expect it to work under the circumstances it is created to work under and do not bad mouth what doesn't work under conditions it is not designed to do so.

    RCG

  4. #28
    cclaxton's Avatar
    cclaxton is offline Member
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    First, not badmouthing anything although I have had some problems with Kahrs.

    Second, I don't think the analogy of the car stopping on an icy road is a fair analogy.

    We live in an era when technology can be built to overcome user faults and consumable faults. Cadillacs are built to run on 87 gas even though they work better with 93 gas. Cadillacs are built with sensors to ensure they don't run into other cars when parking.

    And, while I agree that some higher end handguns need great ammo and sufficient skills to operate properly, and that makes sense for competition, target, etc. When it comes to defensive use, I would expect an automatic to work when I pull the trigger and no matter what kind of commercially available ammo I put in the magazine. Now maybe it means a revolver is the ONLY handgun that would meet those requirements, but having shot enough automatics, I think that is attainable by autmomatics as well. The Keltecs are perhaps good examples of that. So my question is this: Why can't we expect gun manufacturers to meet those same expectations as long as ammo mfgs meet the minimum requirements? I think its just a matter of good engineering design and good manufacturing.

  5. #29
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    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    cclaxton,
    I guess we could expect that, but you also don't get the accuracy out of a Keltec that you do out of an HK either. Something has to give. Same goes for 1911's that will feed anything, they aren't as accurate.

    Personally, if a defensive gun is "minute of man" accurate at 20 feet and it feeds whatever you put in it and doesn't break down every 300 rounds, sounds like a decent gun.

    On the flip side, if I do my part as the operator of the gun, and put decent ammo in it, almost any gun will run. It takes meeting in the middle. Like I said earlier, recoil operated guns operate on the principle of RECOIL. Recoil needs to be up against a firm grip.

    Someone else mentioned switching to a lighter recoil spring. Did they consider that if you do that, it may not feed the next round reliably? There's a reason gun manufacturers do what they do, not just to piss of the whip wristed folks who refuse to recognized that it's the shooter not the gun in 99% of the cases. I hate to bring it up again, but the guy with all the misfeeds in his HK was totally limpwristing the gun. As was evident in the amount of jump he was getting at the muzzle. All that energy that went "up", was wasted and the recoil operation was not completed because it did not have the required energy to finish. Good engineering is only as good as it's end user. Put the average Joe in a Formula 1 car and see how they handle it at top speed... not a good idea. Neither is firing a gun with two fingers or limp wristed.

  6. #30
    jakeleinen1 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    3 posts now, arguing with someone who knows what he is talking about and verifying your statement with such a ridiculous example.
    I agree with everything zhurdan has said so far. You obviously have come here to provoke a response.....mission accomplished. You loose credibility with each post you make and you are already up to 3.

    Enjoy your 2 finger semi auto, what? ....oh you don't have a handgun you just know these things? I see.

    RCG

    Sorry Bro

    Thought you were disagreeing, didnt read your post carefullly enough...

  7. #31
    recoilguy's Avatar
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    The car on ice is a perfect anology.......a car will stop in X feet under ideal conditions if it has proper tires proper brake shoes and a proper amount of brake fluid in the car. If it is rainy it will still stop in pretty much the X factor of feet given the same parameters. If it is windy or hailing or sunny or cold or there are acorns on the street it will still stop in the X feet factor also. However if the road is icy then there is no way for friction (which I believe is the principle used in stopping forward momentum) to be exeherted to counteract the forward motion. Thusly with out sufficent Wrist no recoil can be used to make the machine ( a semi-auto) perform as designed. Just because you would like it to doesn't mean it should. To answer the question about expecting gun manufactures to produce something other then what they feel is of the quality they want their brand to be assosiated with, well I would rather have almost any gun then a Kel tec I could care less if they can shot 8 buck a box shells or not. If I buy a quality gun and it will only run on quality brass with round nose bullets loaded to 1.125 OAL or less, even though a 9mm can be loaded to 1.169 and be in spec, I will either load ammo to fit my gun or buy the brand that works. If I do either or both then all the ammo I have available for my weapon will work flawlessly in my weapon. If something won't work in my weapon i will not buy it, if I don't buy it. There are plenty of Kel tec owners to buy the other brands.

    RCG

    RCG

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