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  1. #1
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    cast bullets in MK9 or PM9?

    I am thinking about getting a short barrel Kahr in a 9mm. My P380 shoots well with cast bullets as do all my .45's. For some reason most 9mm I have had come with a 1-9 or 1-10 twist barrel while most other calibers have 1-15 or so. Usually if I load my 9's to less than 1000fps I have no problems, but if I go faster especially in short barrels, the bullets tend to not engage the riflings and dont get stabilized and tumble.

    This was the case with a Star Firestar & a short barrel Witness pistol.

    So, does anybody shoot cast bullets out of their MK or PM 9 with good results?

    Thanks

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  3. #2
    beretta-neo's Avatar
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    I may be imagining things - but I think the Kahr 9mms have polygon rifling in the barrels. If so shooting cast isn't really a good idea.

  4. #3
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by beretta-neo View Post
    I may be imagining things - but I think the Kahr 9mms have polygon rifling in the barrels. If so shooting cast isn't really a good idea.
    Why is that so? My HK 45's all have polygonal rifling and they have well over 10K through them in total and the tactical model shoots into 2 inches @25yards with a H&G 68 and 231.

    I no doubt believe that the owners manual states don't shoot anything other than factory, but cast bullets do shoot well in my other polygonal rifled guns but they all have a slower twist. The Kahr site does not state what twist they use in the p380, I am just guessing it is slower than 1-10.

  5. #4
    CaseyP's Avatar
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    I think that with polygonal barrels, it has more to do with shooting lead bullets than with reloads. The edges in a polygonal rifled barrel are traps for lead, and as such, more lead will build up and produce excessive wear on the barrel, as well as more lead build up in general, working into other components. Lans and grooves apparently don't build up as much lead.

  6. #5
    James NM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent375hh View Post

    ...So, does anybody shoot cast bullets out of their MK or PM 9 with good results?

    Thanks
    No.

    As has already been stated, shooting lead bullets in barrels with polygonal rifling is a bad idea. If you're just gonna dismiss the replies as BS, why ask the question? You already seem to have the answer you're looking for.

  7. #6
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    I did not dimiss the answer I asked why.

    Kahr does not advise against cast bullets. Glock does advise against it,perhaps that is where this info started.
    I was not asking if anbody thought it was a good idea or not, I was asking if anyone had actual experience with getting decent accuracy out of them.

    Should I assume by your answer "No" that you are a Kahr MK9 or PM9 owner who is an experinced bullet caster and handloader and have already tried and came up with poor accuracy?
    Please let me know all the load combinations that have not worked for you so I can rule those out before I start.

    Thanks

  8. #7
    SaltyDog's Avatar
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    From the Kahr FAQ page and it is also in the Kahr Manual

    Q. Which ammunition is recommended for use with Kahr firearms?

    A. Kahr Arms does not endorse any particular brand of ammunition. However, not every brand of ammunition produces the same results. Please check the markings on the barrel hood of your firearm to determine the proper caliber. Kahr suggests a visit to a pistol range to test fire different brands of ammunition in the proper caliber. Kahr cautions against the use of reloads. Lead (unjacketed) bullets can cause excessive fouling and extra attention to cleaning the bore is recommended after firing lead bullets. The Kahr pistol is rated to +P.

    About the same warning from Glock. I'm guessing if your barrel gets fouled and you send it back to Kahr for repair or replacement they're going to say "We told you so".

  9. #8
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    tekhead1219 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
    From the Kahr FAQ page and it is also in the Kahr Manual

    Q. Which ammunition is recommended for use with Kahr firearms?

    A. Kahr Arms does not endorse any particular brand of ammunition. However, not every brand of ammunition produces the same results. Please check the markings on the barrel hood of your firearm to determine the proper caliber. Kahr suggests a visit to a pistol range to test fire different brands of ammunition in the proper caliber. Kahr cautions against the use of reloads. Lead (unjacketed) bullets can cause excessive fouling and extra attention to cleaning the bore is recommended after firing lead bullets. The Kahr pistol is rated to +P.

    About the same warning from Glock. I'm guessing if your barrel gets fouled and you send it back to Kahr for repair or replacement they're going to say "We told you so".
    Brent must be an engineer,"Read the manual? Bah humbug!"

  10. #9
    SaltyDog's Avatar
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  11. #10
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    If you read the manual for your 4WD vehicle, it would say the warranty does not cover off road use. If you went to a off road forum and asked what tires are good for sand, I suppose you would get a lot of people telling you it is against the vehicle makers advise. If I was a cook that asked for a recipe for turkey cooked in a deep frier with peanut oil, would I hear "that is dangerous and could cause a fire"?

    If you are not an experinced reloader and bullet caster, I would not advise it either. Most companies write their manuals to cater to the lowest common denominator for legal purposes.

    Once again, I am not asking if I should or could, I am was asking if there were any experinced people that have tried it with good accuracy. I have been shooting competitively for 30 years,and have won many state titles. I have worked in the firearms industry for 15 years. I have cast bullets for a living in my college days and shots over 200K rounds in my life, mostly my own ammo.

    I currently own 5 pistols and one rifle with polygonal rifling and shoot nothing but cast bullets in them with no leading problems. I was hoping to find a forum member with actual loading experince with this exact pistol to save me some time with a good load, but I have obviosly been dismissed as an idiot by people who I am guessing never have casted bullets or maybe don't even load their own ammo, but can read an owners manual and follow it to a T.

  12. #11
    beretta-neo's Avatar
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    You asked. Most people who own Glocks buy an aftermarket barrel without polygon rifling, and they use that for lead. Lead does build up in these barrels and can eventually cause a kaboom. 40 caliber is already high pressure, so its the most common kaboom round.

    I threw that out earlier. If you do not like the answer, sorry....

  13. #12
    SaltyDog's Avatar
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    Easy Brent

    I was just making the statement that "most" people do not shoot cast bullets in a polygonal rifled barrel due to the lead build up. Also if someone does not have 30 years experience as you do they may not know to clean their weapon after each firing to prevent lead build up which could possibly result in an out of battery discharge.

    I do not reload - cartridges that is - but let me ask you this - Wouldn't a copper clad bullet perform better than one that is not? If it is a cost item how much more can it cost per round?

    I hope someone has your answer.

  14. #13
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    Mostly the answer as to why I want to shoot lead is that I probably have a lifetime supply of lead given to me over the years. I can cast bullets for free. I also have collected about 3K of 9MM brass over the years so for the cost of a primer and powder (about 3 cents a round) I can shoot as much as I want to. Granted if I kept track of my time and considered it worth something, I could probably buy ammo at Walmart cheaper if I could find it.

    Lead does not wear out a barrel at all. I have a 1911 that has over 50k, still on the same barrel. Jacketed bullets will take out a conventional rifled barrel in 10-15k. Jacketed bullets cost about 8 cents each, so every time I crack open my 6 cavity H&G mold I think I am saving 50 cents. If you choose to call me a stingy bastard, I would take no offense.

    I just got back from my second range session. Both my cast bullets and factory jacketed bullets shoot about 4 1/2 at 25 yards. Considering the size of this little gun, I am amazed and delighted with my purchase.

    I am not shooting +P type loads with lead, just enogh to cycle the gun reliably. After about 100 rounds I do start to get mild leading about an inch from the chamber, but it cleans out easy enough. Accuracy does not fall off and there are certainly no keyholers. I do not shoot any jacketed bullets after I start to get a lead buildup and my primers are as round in the corners as when I loaded them.

    Sorry if I came off harsh. After searching the lead bullet thing it seems that there is much division about what leads up faster, conventional or piolygonal, I think it depends on the polish of the barrel.

    One guy even said that his PD shot nothing but cast in their Glocks, my PD certainly does not shoot reloaded ammo for training, they shoot brand new Federal and leave the brass on the range. I usually try to shoot right after they get done and take home a couple of hundred 40 S&W, even though that is about the only caliber I don't yet reload for.

  15. #14
    SaltyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent375hh View Post
    If you choose to call me a stingy bastard, I would take no offense.
    Hey I'm easy - you're a stingy bastard

    Unfortunately I'm in the same boat save em when you got em. Hey that frees up more money for new weapons right?

    I just got back from my second range session. Both my cast bullets and factory jacketed bullets shoot about 4 1/2 at 25 yards. Considering the size of this little gun, I am amazed and delighted with my purchase.
    Sounds like you answered your OP

    I am not shooting +P type loads with lead, just enogh to cycle the gun reliably. After about 100 rounds I do start to get mild leading about an inch from the chamber, but it cleans out easy enough. Accuracy does not fall off and there are certainly no keyholers. I do not shoot any jacketed bullets after I start to get a lead buildup and my primers are as round in the corners as when I loaded them.
    Most of the problems I have read about the Kahr is with ammo. Some work in the Kahr and some don't. Like Kahr states test the type ammo you are going to use and make sure it works. Good advice I think.

    After searching the lead bullet thing it seems that there is much division about what leads up faster, conventional or piolygonal, I think it depends on the polish of the barrel.
    After reading about this on the web I've found there seems to be quite a bit of controversy on this subject also. Lead or copper clad. Kinda like the 9mm - 40 S&W issue.

  16. #15
    CaseyP's Avatar
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    Brent,

    you mentioned you have a p380, and that you cast bullets for it.

    What loads have you tested, and what is the hottest load that you feel is reliable and safe?


    If you don't mind me asking, that is.

  17. #16
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    Casey,

    In my P380 I am shooting a RCBS 95gr RN with 2.7 gr of WW231. It cycles the gun and shoots as well as anything else. My P380 does not shoot all that well with any load, about 3 inch groups at 10 yards, but I guess for a pocket gun, that will work. The Lyman pistol and revolver book has lots of good loading recipes to try. The RCBS is virtually the same bullet as the Lyman 92 gr. The cheaper but usable mold is the Lee 102 gr RN.

    One of the reasons it is worth casting your own as opposed to buying cast is that you can choose the lube. Commercial casters use lube that stays in the groove during shipping. Most of it stays in the groove when fired also. 50/50 alox/beeswax will flow out of the groove under acceleration and does not lead at all in my 380. One patch soaked in Hoppes and it is clean.

  18. #17
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    I have posted targets on the P380 forum if you want to see how cast bullets shoot in the MK9

  19. #18
    RevDerb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james nm View Post
    no.

    As has already been stated, shooting lead bullets in barrels with polygonal rifling is a bad idea. If you're just gonna dismiss the replies as bs, why ask the question? You already seem to have the answer you're looking for.
    wow!!!

  20. #19
    brent375hh is offline Junior Member
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    A 125gr FP with 6.0 of Blue Dot got me ZERO leading after 100 rounds.

  21. #20
    frjeff is offline Junior Member
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    Unhappy Kahr Factory Opinion

    Not to pour water on this subject, but I wrote Kahr to see about cast bullet reloads in my P9.
    Here is the response:

    On Nov 10, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Ian.Burr@kahr.com wrote:

    We do not recommend lead bullets in pistols because they have polygonal barrels. If lead builds up in them it can cause a high pressure situation, and since the barrel is already tighter then conventional rifled barrels it does not take much to have a high pressure situation.

    Ian Burr

    I'll stay with jacketed for my 9mm P9 reloads.

    Jeff+

  22. #21
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    It is my experiance no one tries so hard to get the opinion they desire as much as I have seen here if the word free isn't involved somehow.

    Kahr says "We do not recommend lead bullets in pistols because they have polygonal barrels" to me that means you can use them but they don't think you should. If free is such a heavy motivator then you did ask the right question what loads has anyone used and how do they work?

    You will always get the people who will say hey bad idea, bummer is when sometimes they can even back it up like they have here.

    I have never used cast bullets in my Kahr or any gun yet. I have a few boxes from a friend who does what you do and enjoys it like it apears you do. I will only use them someday when there is no more bullets and I am down to my last 2 boxes ever.

    Good luck have fun shoot safely

    RCG

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