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  1. #1
    Cait43's Avatar
    Cait43 is online now Senior Member
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    FBI 9MM Justification.......


  2. #2
    zeke4351 is offline Junior Member
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    Looks like Dr. Roberts wrote the article word for word. There are a few points I will make. All of the other caliber loadings have improved over the years and not just the 9mm. I would like to see all the reasons and facts the Army has for wanting to get rid of the 9mm. It would be very interesting to see the reports from the Secret Service on why they use the .357 Sig. The FBI in the past made up the term of over penetration in order to justify dropping the 10mm and going to the .40 S&W. It is true that all the modern calibers perform equal on paper. They appear to be equal but the full power 10mm is always omitted from testing for some reason. I have a Sig P229 in 9mm and it does shoot softer than any of my other larger caliber guns even using 124 grain +P Gold Dots. Follow up shots are quicker with the 9mm making it the perfect caliber for new shooters or weaker shooters and no wonder the scores go up. But!!!, When you forget about all the gel testing and start researching real shooting accounts you find that all calibers are not equal.

    Example

    The Virginia State Police has reported that attacking dogs have been stopped dead in their tracks by a single shot, whereas the former 147 grain 9 mm duty rounds would require multiple shots to incapacitate the animals. Proponents of the hydrostatic shock theory contend that the energy available in the .357 SIG is sufficient for imparting hydrostatic shock with well-designed bullets. Users have commented, "We're really impressed with the stopping power of the .357 SIG round."



    Example

    In tests, the .357 SIG outperformed the 9mm, .40 S&W and the .45 ACP in higher percentage success rates in one-shot stops, fatal shots, accuracy, and less number of rounds used to stop an assailant. Loaded to the same pressure as a .357 Magnum, but 14 percent higher than a .40 S&W or a 9mm, the .357 SIG creates quite the report when fired. Recoil is similar to the .40 S&W—if you need something to compare it to—but less than the .357 Magnum. It can handle a 160-grain bullet, but 125-grain jacketed hollow points perform best for self-defense. Its stopping power is undeniable.



    And now for the over penetration BS.

    The .357 SIG shoots an extremely flat trajectory at longer ranges than its self-defense round counter parts. And gets even faster in longer, five or six-inch barrels. Massad Ayoob tested American Eagle’s 125-grain Full Metal Jacket bullet out to 25 yards in a 4-inch barrel Glock 32 Gen 4. He achieved highly satisfactory 1.05-inch groups. Push the .357 SIG even further, and accuracy is not compromised even out to 100 yards. Rumor has it the .357 SIG will over penetrate, but this just isn’t the case in reality. If so, the Federal Air Marshals would not be issued handguns chambered for .357 SIG. Not because a hole in the airplane would suck anyone out—it wouldn’t—but due to the confinement and closeness of people relative to the bad guy in a commercial airline cabin.



    I am not trying to say the .357 Sig is the only caliber to use because the .40 also comes out better than the 9mm in real life situations.



    Money talks and politicians love money. Each time the FBI has written its report on changing guns and calibers it's supposed to be the Holy Grail they are switching to. The facts are that not every gun manufacturer makes a gun that will withstand the punishment from full power .40 S&W or the .357 Sig and it causes them a lot of headaches when agencies try to use the more powerful calibers. If the gun makers can get everyone to switch to the 9mm that means more profit and less hassle. The 9mm will work but it is not used by the agencies that want what is best and not just what works.



    Here is a list of State Police calibers by state to prove my point and don't forget the Secret Service caliber used.





    Alabama Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)

    Alaska Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)

    Arizona Sig P226 (.40 S&W)

    Arkansas Glock 21SF (State Police), Glock 22 (S.P. Highway Patrol) (.45 ACP, .40 S&W)

    California S&W 4006TSW (.40 S&W)

    Colorado S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

    Connecticut Sig P226/P229 (.40 S&W) Switched to SIG P220 in 45ACP

    Delaware Sig P229 (.357Sig)

    Florida Glock 37 (.45 GAP)

    Georgia Glock 37 (.45 GAP)

    Hawaii (State Sheriff's Office, Honolulu) S&W M&P (9mm)

    Idaho Glock 21 (.45 ACP) or Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Illinois Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Indiana Glock 17 (9mm)

    Iowa S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

    Kansas Glock 21 (.45 ACP)

    Kentucky Glock 35 (.40 S&W)...........Transitioning to Gen 4 G35

    Lousiana Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Maine HK USP (.45 ACP)

    Maryland Beretta Px4 (.40 S&W)

    Massachusetts S&W M&P (.45 ACP)

    Michigan Sig P226 (.40 S&W)

    Minnesota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Mississippi Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Missouri Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Montana Sig P229 (.357Sig)

    Nebraska Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Nevada Sig P229 (.40 S&W)

    New Hampshire S&W M&P (.45 ACP)

    New Jersey Sig 228 (9mm)

    New Mexico S&W M&P (.357 Sig).........The latest word is that NM has gone back to .40 for cost reasons

    New York Glock 37 (.45 GAP)

    North Carolina S&W M&P(.357Sig)

    North Dakota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Ohio Sig P229/P226 (.40 S&W)

    Oklahoma Sig P226R (.357Sig)

    Oregon S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

    Pennsylvania Glock 37 (.45 GAP)

    Rhode Island Sig P229 (.357Sig)

    South Carolina Glock 37 (.45 GAP)

    South Dakota Sig P229 (.357 Sig)

    Tennessee Glock 31 (.357Sig)

    Texas Sig P229/P226 (.357Sig)

    Utah Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Vermont S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

    Virginia Sig P229RDAK (.357Sig)

    Washington S&W M&P (.40 S&W)

    West Virginia S&W 4566TSW (.45 ACP)

    Wisconsin Glock 22 (.40 S&W)

    Wyoming S&W M&P (.40 S&W)



    I have two 9mm guns that I carry on occasion rather than not carry at all. I always carry no matter what but my first choice is not the 9mm because I think I have three other much more capable calibers in 10mm, .40 S&W, and 357 Sig. all of which are loaded with the full powered loads for each as designed. I am sure you noticed I haven't mentioned the .45 and that is because it tends to bounce off some material worse than any of the other calibers. Any gun is better than no gun but I choose my caliber based on if I needed one for offense and not just get me by defense. By all means carry what you have confidence in and have a warm fuzzy feeling about. For me the 9mm is the minimum choice.

  3. #3
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    Actually, the GSP just transitioned to the Glock 17 9mm with a Glock 42 on the ankle. So much for the list being accurate. The science doesn't lie. There just isn't that much of a difference in the actual scientific ballistics to claim one is a definite MAN STOPPER over any of the rest. The fact of the matter is that shot PLACEMENT not CALIBER makes the biggest difference. The truth is that, although the .40 is still very popular and effective handgun round, more departments are starting to move away from it in favor of either a 9mm or a .45. There is just no way to get around that, no matter how hard you attempt to defend the .40.

    I would be willing to bet that over he next decade we'll see more agencies using a 9mm over any other round for a few reasons. One, they just get better results with it. Two, it is more cost effective. Three, with technology always developing, you just do not need anything more than a 9mm. If you need more than a handgun round, get a rifle, which most LEOs have in their cruisers. Some folks just do not get it. This isn't an assault or an indictment on the .40. It just makes sense. If you can get back on target quicker, and you shoot more accurately with these follow up shots, and there is not that much of a real difference in the ballistics from one round to the other, it is a definite no brainer. Go with the round that is going to be better for you. The truth is most people are going to perform better with a 9mm. It isn't a matter of how good you are with a well placed single shot. How fast can you reacquire your target, get another shot off and hit the target where it will matter? THAT is why more and more agencies are starting to move away from the .40 to the 9mm or the .45.

  4. #4
    EvilTwin is offline Banned
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    Some one mentioned a 45 round bouncing off some material That has not been my experience when using 45 ball in a combat situation, IN 22 TWO MONTHS OF action. I chose a heavy 235 grain +p for its superior hit in the body with a sledge hammer effect..

    here is four layers of denim and some ballistics gel. I don't see this bouncing off much without inflicting some serious hurt.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEpJ_qEKTvs

  5. #5
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    ET, any bullet can and will bounce off any material given the right circumstances. The truth is that there is no such thing as a magic bullet. I know most of you old vets who fought with the .45 swear it is the only real man stopper, but it's not. It's folklore and legend, not science. Granted, the .45 will make a bigger hole than a 9mm, but that does not mean it will kill you quicker or stop you with one shot. It's just not so. A well placed .22 will stop an elephant with one shot. A .50 will make gelatin of just about anything it hits. But that does not mean that a single shot with either one will stop a man guaranteed one shot. I just read an account where a LEO interviewed another LEO who had just shot a guy five times with premium JHP .45 and could not stop him. In another account, a little old lady shot an intruder once with her little .32 FMJ and severed his aorta. A one stop shot with a .32 vs five shots with a .45.

    This does not mean that the .45 isn't a hard hitting bullet. But it does not mean that the .45 is a one stop shop. PLACEMENT is superior to CALIBER every time. There is a reason that the Navy SEALS and the British SAS use a 9mm as their standard issue pistol. I once asked a Navy SEAL what pistol he would choose if he could pick any pistol, fully expecting him to say the HK 45. But what he said was this. "Well, I have the most training with the P226, so I would take that." He would choose a 9mm over a 45 given the choice, and most of those who use that weapon that I've spoken with say the same. Does it mean they would not use a 45? No, of course not. But the point is this. They train most with the P226 9mm. They are proficient with it, and given the choice, they choose that. A 9mm.

    For most shooters today, who are not going to train like a SEAL, a 9mm is still the best choice simply b/c of the reasons the FBI laid out in this report. The 9mm hits hard. It hits very hard! It just doesn't make as big a hole as a .45, but it will kill you just as dead, just as quickly when properly placed. That placement is just as required with a .40, .45 or anything else one shoots, in a handgun. It's just that simple.

  6. #6
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeke4351 View Post
    Money talks and politicians love money. Each time the FBI has written its report on changing guns and calibers it's supposed to be the Holy Grail they are switching to. The facts are that not every gun manufacturer makes a gun that will withstand the punishment from full power .40 S&W or the .357 Sig and it causes them a lot of headaches when agencies try to use the more powerful calibers. If the gun makers can get everyone to switch to the 9mm that means more profit and less hassle. The 9mm will work but it is not used by the agencies that want what is best and not just what works.
    The fact is that the FBI, along with the rest of the LE community, uses either a Glock or a Sig Sauer, both of which are proven .40 platforms. Some use a HK or the M&P, and some use the Beretta, although not many, but with 65% of the LE market using a Glock, I'd say this theory of manufacturers trying to get everyone to switch to a 9mm b/c their platforms can't handle the .40 is not very stable.

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    rustygun is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    This is borrowed from cait43 post:
    The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds.
    3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
    On average, one shot in four strikes someone.

    I would rather those shots be .45 ACP.

    "I just read an account where a LEO interviewed another LEO who had just shot a guy five times with premium JHP .45 and could not stop him."
    That does not mean 9mm would have done any better in the exact same situation.

  8. #8
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustygun View Post
    This is borrowed from cait43 post:
    The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds.
    3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
    On average, one shot in four strikes someone.

    I would rather those shots be .45 ACP.

    "I just read an account where a LEO interviewed another LEO who had just shot a guy five times with premium JHP .45 and could not stop him."
    That does not mean 9mm would have done any better in the exact same situation.
    You missed the whole point. The point was that the .45 isn't the one stop shot many claim it is. Placement is king regardless of what you're shooting, but you're free to use whatever you want; however, to quote the SouthernBoy from that thread you quoted above, "Private citizens have a significantly higher hit percentage than do police. This is because a BG who attacks a private citizen is not expecting that victim to be armed and is caught off guard when the victim suddenly presents a firearm and opens fire. Police, on the other hand, announce their presence in the form of uniforms and most often, marked cars."

    I really don't care what anyone uses. I say use what you want and are most comfortable with, but the FACTS are that a lot of LE agencies are shifting back to the 9mm for the reasons mentioned in this study, and the science just doesn't lie. Most people are going to shoot a 9mm better. That does not mean all people will. It means most. Most do not work with their weapons like trained professionals to. But rusty, if you want to use a .45...well buddy...you use a 45. I really don't think it matters one heck of a lot one way or the other.

  9. #9
    EvilTwin is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCBHM View Post
    ET, any bullet can and will bounce off any material given the right circumstances. The truth is that there is no such thing as a magic bullet. I know most of you old vets who fought with the .45 swear it is the only real man stopper, but it's not. It's folklore and legend, not science. Granted, the .45 will make a bigger hole than a 9mm, but that does not mean it will kill you quicker or stop you with one shot. It's just not so. A well placed .22 will stop an elephant with one shot. A .50 will make gelatin of just about anything it hits. But that does not mean that a single shot with either one will stop a man guaranteed one shot. I just read an account where a LEO interviewed another LEO who had just shot a guy five times with premium JHP .45 and could not stop him. In another account, a little old lady shot an intruder once with her little .32 FMJ and severed his aorta. A one stop shot with a .32 vs five shots with a .45.

    This does not mean that the .45 isn't a hard hitting bullet. But it does not mean that the .45 is a one stop shop. PLACEMENT is superior to CALIBER every time. There is a reason that the Navy SEALS and the British SAS use a 9mm as their standard issue pistol. I once asked a Navy SEAL what pistol he would choose if he could pick any pistol, fully expecting him to say the HK 45. But what he said was this. "Well, I have the most training with the P226, so I would take that." He would choose a 9mm over a 45 given the choice, and most of those who use that weapon that I've spoken with say the same. Does it mean they would not use a 45? No, of course not. But the point is this. They train most with the P226 9mm. They are proficient with it, and given the choice, they choose that. A 9mm.

    For most shooters today, who are not going to train like a SEAL, a 9mm is still the best choice simply b/c of the reasons the FBI laid out in this report. The 9mm hits hard. It hits very hard! It just doesn't make as big a hole as a .45, but it will kill you just as dead, just as quickly when properly placed. That placement is just as required with a .40, .45 or anything else one shoots, in a handgun. It's just that simple.
    No one ever said Magic bullet... IM also a retired Mechanical engineer, with a B.S.M.E from Rowan University..
    I have seen what a 45 can do... I have seen Angelo Bruno ( Philadelphia crime boss ) shot with a single shot .22 to the back of the ear.

    I've done my research. they make depleted uranium projectiles to penetrate 6 inches of armor. there is a whole host of calibers and ballistics, I've have personal evidence of its ability to get the job done.. IM not arguing that anyone can choose whatever they want.. IM not trying that change anyone, I'm just defending what works for me.. I never said anything about a magic bullet...

    I saw a video of two cops in Ohio using 9mm and only after firing 46 shots half of them being non effective after being shot through the windshield of the police cruiser. 2 shot of 46 shot taken hit their mark one a head shot and one a chest shot. the Police chied said his cops were out gunned with their 9mm.

    I've use many analogies, a big rock vs. a small rock. and their have been counter arguments. I know that mass and inertia trump small and fast when in close quarters.. If IM going to hit some one in the face or chest with a hammer , its going to be a sledge hammer and not a tack hammer. Some times police selection is based on politics and financial resources..

    AS I've said before and was met with arguments... while seal teams have their choice of many weapons, Seal teams and Delta operative use 45 ACP for close quarters insurgency operations.

    Ill stick with what 50 years of armed experience has taught me.. Ill stick with my 45 ACP... what other use is up to them.. I can only offer my personal experiences, and not something I read somewhere..

  10. #10
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    I think the point I'm trying to make is there is no need for you to "defend" what works for you. What difference does it make? Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care what kind of engineering degrees you have or how many universities you've obtained them from. You're a man just like me. You have some experiences. We all have experiences, but the simple truth is that the .45 is really no better than a 9mm in terms of ballistics. The science has proven that to be the truth regardless of our personal experiences.

    The FBI has a lot of experience also, and they have means to test things far greater than our own capabilities extend us. I've never shot anyone, and I hope I never have to. According to what you've said, in over 40 years you have only had to pull your weapon twice, and in both situations you were not required to shoot. So you have carried a gun for 50 years. You have done a lot of research. I have only carried a gun for 20 years, but I too have done a lot of research. Some of that research included personal experience just like yours.

    You keep claiming that SEAL teams and Dalta operators use the .45 ACP for close quarters insurgency operations, but that just isn't true. The Navy SEALs use the Sig P226 for just about every operation they are sent on. They used the Sig MK25 (P226 9mm) to get Osama bin Laden, and that is their weapon of issue and choice. Most operators use a 9mm, and that is just the truth. At any rate, as I've said before, I do not care what anyone chooses to use whether it be a .22 to a .50 cal. Use what is best for you! But when it comes to facts, evidence and science, the .45 is no better than a 9mm. It is a personal preference issue. There is no one bullet that gets it done better than any other. That is strictly perception, folklore and legend. Ant that, my friend, is the truth.

  11. #11
    rustygun is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCBHM View Post
    You missed the whole point. The point was that the .45 isn't the one stop shot many claim it is. Placement is king regardless of what you're shooting, but you're free to use whatever you want; however, to quote the SouthernBoy from that thread you quoted above, "Private citizens have a significantly higher hit percentage than do police. This is because a BG who attacks a private citizen is not expecting that victim to be armed and is caught off guard when the victim suddenly presents a firearm and opens fire. Police, on the other hand, announce their presence in the form of uniforms and most often, marked cars."

    I really don't care what anyone uses. I say use what you want and are most comfortable with, but the FACTS are that a lot of LE agencies are shifting back to the 9mm for the reasons mentioned in this study, and the science just doesn't lie. Most people are going to shoot a 9mm better. That does not mean all people will. It means most. Most do not work with their weapons like trained professionals to. But rusty, if you want to use a .45...well buddy...you use a 45. I really don't think it matters one heck of a lot one way or the other.
    I really don't care what anyone uses either.

    I never said the .45 was the ultimate one shot stop. My point was if I were to land 3-4 shots I rather those be .45 than 9mm. That's all.

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    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    Well, I can't argue with that. Especially if it is what you'd rather do.

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    EvilTwin is offline Banned
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    with drawn

  14. #14
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    OldManMontgomery is offline Junior Member
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    Nothing to do with ballistics or weapon efficiency

    From the transcribed version of the report, published on LooseRounds.com:

    * LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
    So the primary issue seems to be one of 'ability to hit' which stems from training. But, between 'management' who resent employees not being 'on the job' and unions who champion no skill or talent, this doesn't seem to be a serious problem to attack.

    So... why does the 9mm cartridge present as the answer?

    Because
    "...faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons)..."
    in other words, with lesser trained personnel, lighter recoil allows faster shooting and more rounds allow more misses along with a few more hits.

    Those who are in law enforcement for the money and do not want to be bothered with ability don't object to the lighter recoil. Since most LEOs do not fire their weapons in crisis, they can pretend they will never have to face a human adversary. The agency is happy because more employees can 'qualify' and the unions don't give as much trouble.

    Anyone not seeing the political correctness behind this report simply does not understand how political aspirations of 'leaders' affect policies.

  15. #15
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldManMontgomery View Post
    From the transcribed version of the report, published on LooseRounds.com:



    So the primary issue seems to be one of 'ability to hit' which stems from training. But, between 'management' who resent employees not being 'on the job' and unions who champion no skill or talent, this doesn't seem to be a serious problem to attack.

    So... why does the 9mm cartridge present as the answer?

    Because in other words, with lesser trained personnel, lighter recoil allows faster shooting and more rounds allow more misses along with a few more hits.

    Those who are in law enforcement for the money and do not want to be bothered with ability don't object to the lighter recoil. Since most LEOs do not fire their weapons in crisis, they can pretend they will never have to face a human adversary. The agency is happy because more employees can 'qualify' and the unions don't give as much trouble.

    Anyone not seeing the political correctness behind this report simply does not understand how political aspirations of 'leaders' affect policies.
    There is a political overtone to nearly everything the government does, for one reason or another. And I don't disagree that with proper training one can be leathal with any ammunition. However, anyone believing that politics is the only reason behind such a report as this is perhaps a little too biased.

    The facts are what they are regardless of political asperations, and those facts are that ballistics really are not that much different from one caliber to the other. If this were the only report stating this, it might be suspect, but I've read too many reports that are completely unrelated to politics or government to buy into the political asperiations rhetoric. The fact is that pistol cartridges are wholly inadequate when compared to a rifle cartridge. Most pistol shootings do not result in death for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact that terminal ballistics are just that great. I used to buy into the myth that the .45 was the ultimate man stopper, but not anymore.

    Now, in saying all that, I have absolutely nothing against the .45 or anyone who chooses to use it. I think it is a great round as it goes. For me, this whole argument centers around the truth, which is that while there are some differences in ballistics btwn the 9mm, .40 and .45, they are not enough to make that much of a difference, and the fact is there is no "magic bullet" that will stop a man with one hit. Any bullet will drop a man if it hits him in the head or heart. Outside that, good luck! So with that in mind, I choose a 9mm simply b/c for me, I can get more bullets down range faster and more accurately than with the .40 and .45. This does not mean that I cannot shoot accurately with the.40 or .45, or that I cannot score good follow up shots. It just means I am better with the 9mm. Slightly? Maybe. Enough to make a huge difference? Maybe not. But when it comes to having more bullets in my gun when it really doesn't make that much of a difference...I'll choose more.

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    zeke4351 is offline Junior Member
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    FBI 9MM Justification.......

    It makes no difference what the FBI uses. History shows they want to water down the ammo instead of holding people to certain shooting standards. Look what they did to the 10mm. They got the .40 and had to get a lite load for it too. There will probably be a new 9mm FBI (wuss) lite load.

  17. #17
    GCBHM is offline Senior Member
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    Well, I do agree it doesn't matter what the FBI uses. I think it doesn't matter what anyone uses. I also think way too much is made of this issue. It just ain't that deep. At least not for me. Pistol cartridges are just not adequate for a one shot kill like a rifle cartridge is. It is purely a defensive round. Sure, it can and will kill with one shot if properly placed, but the statistics show most people do not die from one shot from a pistol, regardless of caliber.

    My whole point is and has been use what you want, but regardless of what you use, train. Do not think that b/c you're carrying a .45 you're going to be able to "drop" a man with one shot. Only a fool would think so. Give yourself the best advantage you can. If you believe that is with a .40, so be it. But zeke...regardless of what round you and I think is best, more and more LE agencies are moving away from the .40. That doesn't mean all will. It doesn't mean most will. But it means what it means.

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