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  1. #1
    czfan is offline Junior Member
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    9mm NATO 124gr truncated cone/flat point made years ago?

    Good Day,

    I have a vague memory our military was equipped with 124gr NATO truncated cone/flat point ammo a number of years ago. Does anyone remember that ammo being used? If it existed, is it made now somewhere?

    Cheers

  2. #2
    tacman605's Avatar
    tacman605 is offline Junior Member
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    What time frame? Most all of the stuff I have seen and used was standard ball.

    There was some European manufactured ammo that was loaded to specs hot enough to be reliable in a subgun.

  3. #3
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Somewhere deep in my now-dysfunctional memory is the notion that the original load for the 9mm Parabellum ("Luger") pistol featured a truncated-cone, FMJ bullet.

    I know that some major manufacturer still makes this load, but I just can't remember which one, or even if it's a US company.

  4. #4
    tacman605's Avatar
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    Hornady had a version of this I think.

  5. #5
    jdeere9750 is offline Member
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    9mm NATO 124gr truncated cone/flat point made years ago?


  6. #6
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    You got the truncated cone part down, but "NATO" is a higher velocity ammunition, similar to a +P loading.

  7. #7
    jdeere9750 is offline Member
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    9mm NATO 124gr truncated cone/flat point made years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    You got the truncated cone part down, but "NATO" is a higher velocity ammunition, similar to a +P loading.
    Well, darn. Maybe I need to self enforce a rule that I have to read all posts twice before I reply. I gave it my best, though.

  8. #8
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdeere9750 View Post
    Well, darn. Maybe I need to self enforce a rule that I have to read all posts twice before I reply. I gave it my best, though.
    No worries, it happens.

  9. #9
    TDC
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    I purchased some older Fiocchi combat ammo made in Italy labeled as 123 gr. F.M.J.-FN. These flat points are either solid copper or jacketed copper. Fiocchi's web site suggest this may be a 1400 fps ammo, which was likely loaded hot to near +p+ pressure by American SAAMI standards. These loads may be what you are referring to. I think Hirttemberger may have made a TC round as well, of which would have been a hot round.

    I also bought some 123 gr. TCEB Fiocchi before it was discontinued that has exposed lead on the flat point. These are likely the 1280 fps ammo they list.

    Remington, Winchester and Federal American Eagle make a 147 gr. FMJ FP round.

    DoubleTap seems to have discontinued their 147 gr. FMJ FP +p rounds which are listed as 1180 fps, glad I bought some before they did.

    Buffalo Bore sells a 124 gr. FMJ FP +p+ round that is listed as 1300 fps, they are about $1.23 per rnd.

  10. #10
    denner's Avatar
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    Yes Buffalo Bore makes +P+ truncated 9mm ammo as mentioned above. I don't believe are military has used anything but round nose 9mm ammo.

  11. #11
    OldManMontgomery's Avatar
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    The more I read about this round, the less I seem to know.

    I recall reading - long ago - the original loading for 9mm Luger was a truncated cone bullet, and the weight was around 125 grains. So I'll second Steve's memory. (I just checked a conversion table and see that 8 grams is 123.46 grains; so I rather imagine the loading was an 8 gram bullet. But I digress.)

    Looking at my copy of U. S. Army TM 43-0001-27, titled Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition FSC 1305 [dated April 1994] I find a page [12-5 for those who track such things] listing 'Cartridge, 9mm, Ball, NATO, M882'. According to the specifics, that round uses a bullet of 112 grains at a velocity of 1263 fps +/- 5 fps; this derived from an average pressure of 31,175 psi and a maximum pressure of 36,250 psi. Maximum SAAMI pressure is listed - according to the Speer reloading manual #14 as 35,000 psi. The Speer manual lists several loads approaching that velocity, but not quite getting there.

    The illustration shows a round nosed bullet of FMJ configuration. Further, I remember reading about the 'new pistol' in 1985 and seeing pictures and such. No truncated cone bullets come to mind.


    From my past experience - and I'm not a 9x19 fan, by the way - I gather most people think European ammo is loaded to a rather higher pressure level than U. S. ammunition. It may have been in the past, but that is no longer the case. The CIP pressure limits for the 9mm Parabellum (or Luger) is a trifle less than the U. S. - SAAMI - limit.

    For years, the myth of 'submachinegun ammunition' has floated about, and is commonly accepted. The claim of the myth is the NAZI government loaded special ammunition for their submachineguns that achieved a higher pressure. This higher pressure ammunition was believed to damage regular pistols.

    What really occurred was the NAZI regime was low on strategic materials, like lead. They developed a sintered iron bullet for 9mm use, which had a conventional jacket - more or less - and could fired through a issue weapon. However, the bullet was lighter than a conventional lead core bullet. The result was that to get the pressure high enough to operate the arm, the velocity of the lighter bullet was considerable faster than that of a lead core bullet. This lead to the belief the ammunition had a higher chamber pressure.

    Another incident during the Second World War was the introduction of U. S. made 9mm Parabellum ammunition to use in British Sten submachineguns. For some reason, the U. S. ammo was a lower pressured loading and would not reliably push the bolt far enough back to engage the sear when the trigger was released. This resulted in the arm so loaded to 'run away' and empty the magazine, whether the shooter so desired or not. This ammunition was stamped - on the boxes and crates - 'Not for submachinegun Use'. Which also gave rise to the myth of 'special submachinegun ammo'.

    As a thought, consider this: What governmental organization is going to intentionally issue a round they know will damage their own weapons and give it to their own troops? Even the NAZI government was not that crazed or stupid.

    Were there lots of overloaded ammunition in circulation? Quite possibly. That may explain some of the stories one hears.

  12. #12
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Once more into the fray with my unreliable memory:

    I believe that, to make a 9mm Parabellum P.08 pistol (that is, a "Luger") function properly, its ammunition has to be loaded "hot," and with truncated-cone, FMJ bullets.
    If one uses "normal velocity" ammunition, particularly RNFMJs from US makers, there will be failures to eject and attempts to double-feed.

    Lugers are ammunition sensitive. I believe that it's because of the extreme feed angle.

  13. #13
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    I oversaw the conversion to the M9 9mm handgun at two different USAF bases, and supervised the range qualifications and the instructors providing the training. All the M882 ball ammo I've ever seen (both Winchester- and Federal-manufactured), at Army, Navy, and USAF installations during the late-80s-to-mid-90s period, for duty OR training purposes, had round-nose FMJ bullets.

    What my foggy memory is dredging-up from that period, is that a flat-nose 9mm bullet was developed by Hornady for the military, but was never adopted. I think it was an attempt to improve the stopping power of 9mm ball ammo (which was notoriously poor, anecdotally; .38 RNL, Moros, etc.). This design was available in Hornady 9mm commercial ammo for many years, as well as a Federal competition/match round (although I do not remember the bullet weights used).

    EDIT: I found a reference to the Hornady bullet in an old magazine/book article on loading the 9mm Luger cartridge. It said the bullet (#3556 in Hornady's lineup) was developed in cooperation with the USAF. It weighed 124 grains, and the designation used in the article was FMJ-FP (full metal jacket - flat point).
    "Placement is power" -- seen in an article by Stephen A. Camp
    (RIP, Mr. Camp; you will be remembered, and missed)

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