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  1. #1
    WI45 is offline Junior Member
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    silicone plugging hollow points

    I was reading a Guns & Ammo magazine article about FBI tests and Hornady ammunition. Into the article the author was discussing bullets plugging up with material, a ballistics scientist,Dave Emary came up with an idea to fill the cavity with silicone caulk, the idea worked so well that they continued their research and it evolved to polymer, of which we all know have become very popular. Well, i was wondering what you all think of silicone plugging regular hollow points, any danger, or advantage seen in this?

  2. #2
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    In the past, they have had trouble with the penetration of certain hollowpoints in different calibers, going through clothing.....the hollow part would fill up with material, and in essence, slow the bullet down.........manufacturers have been testing this problem, and now you find ammo that has a copper plug, or a copper nipple in the center, which keeps the bullet from picking up material on the way in.....as far as silicone caulk, I think that I would stick to factory made, instead of homemade......heat is a factor, which I am sure they tested......

  3. #3
    Baldy's Avatar
    Baldy is offline Senior Member
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    There's a lot of different silicones and the scientist at Winchester, Hornady, and many others have tested all kinds to see what works. I'd stay with one of them.

  4. #4
    WI45 is offline Junior Member
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    well, this isn't going any further, just something that sounded interesting after reading the story of how these polymer plugged HP's got there start, thanks for the input

  5. #5
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    It's not as simple as just pushing silicone caulk into the hollow point of a bullet.
    The bullet must also be formed (swedged, drawn, even cast) in such a way as to be able to utilize the caulking material to assist in its controlled expansion.
    Otherwise, it would be much like merely slicing a cross into the nose of a solid lead bullet, hoping to make it expand. (Note: It doesn't work.)

  6. #6
    1uspatriot is offline Junior Member
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    Cool RTV Silicone works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    It's not as simple as just pushing silicone caulk into the hollow point of a bullet.
    The bullet must also be formed (swedged, drawn, even cast) in such a way as to be able to utilize the caulking material to assist in its controlled expansion.
    Otherwise, it would be much like merely slicing a cross into the nose of a solid lead bullet, hoping to make it expand. (Note: It doesn't work.)

    I beg your pardon but in my own experience, this method does work. UMC 45 JHP are nearly incapable of expanding under any circumstances, I've witnessed them fall out of a walking talking GSW victim. The umc jhp 45 literally fell out of the hole in his portly side, completely pristine and undeformed.
    Recently bought a box because they were cheap at walmart, value pack. Also picked up a tube of RTV Silicone. I painstakingly filled and wiped all the rounds tips flush. After theyd cured into semi flexible polymer tips, I went to the range and began shooting into wet phonebooks, mud and water jugs, all expanded to the size of deer slugs. The couple I didnt modify failed to expand at all. test gun was a glock 21 gen 4.
    I went to work on my T series ammo after that, using a small syringe to fill the tiny 9mm cavity. Ranger T ammo would be perfect if not for its Denim nemmisis. Well, after making the upgrade, I placed a folded pair of old wranglers over a 5gal bucket of mud and fired into it with a Glock 26. the perfectly expanded razor sharp petaled flower was in the dirt just behind the bucket.
    So I repeated the silicone filling procedure until I had done all my gold dots, t series, berrys hp and every other hp round I could find, All have behaved like Critical Defense rounds but their specialty jacket design still performed as designed, sort of the icing on the cake. Its onl a matter of time before every major defensive load comes standard with a silicone denim guard plug in it, much like how the polymer tip took over in the rifle ammo market. your mileage will not vary, but don't take my word for it, go make some for yourself, one $4 tube of RTV SILICONE will fill over 1000 rounds. but itll take awhile.

  7. #7
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    so we really wanna alter a home defense round? i hope your defense attorney is very very good

  8. #8
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    I dunno, Ted: I'm willing to try it.
    I'll experiment, as described.

    I've decided to worry more about survival than about subsequent litigation.

  9. #9
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I dunno, Ted: I'm willing to try it.
    I'll experiment, as described.

    I've decided to worry more about survival than about subsequent litigation.
    just think it would be smarter to invest in bullets that expand as designed.... but hey, thats just me

  10. #10
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    You're right, of course.
    But the experimenter inside me leaps to try the concept.

    For actual self-defense carry, I think that I'd stick to already-proven ammunition...
    But, "One never knows, do one?"

  11. #11
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
    TedDeBearFrmHell is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    You're right, of course.
    But the experimenter inside me leaps to try the concept.

    For actual self-defense carry, I think that I'd stick to already-proven ammunition...
    But, "One never knows, do one?"
    i carry frangibles, only cause i have buckets of them, literally.... but in a less than ideal situation i would use anything, even a blender

  12. #12
    skullfr's Avatar
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    I use the Hornady critical defense XTP with the polymer plug and it performs beautifully and expands consistently.When I was overseas I carried a 1911 but all we could get was ball ammo.Did alot of experimenting and my favorite round was a drilled hole filled with mercury and covered with lead or wax.Fed great but gave a possible fatality to an otherwise less lethal wound.

  13. #13
    Shipwreck's Avatar
    Shipwreck is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    Honestly, i would not go about altering any self defense ammo that you plan to use for self defense. Play around at the range - fine. Just don't blow up your gun or do something stupid.

  14. #14
    skullfr's Avatar
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    I even tried the shotgun round loaded with dimes out of a sawed off.Behave horribly was fun though.Experimenting for fun is cool but stick with proven rounds for primary carry.

  15. #15
    1uspatriot is offline Junior Member
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    Not the least bit concerned with litigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I dunno, Ted: I'm willing to try it.
    I'll experiment, as described.

    I've decided to worry more about survival than about subsequent litigation.
    I think the first doccumented case of ammo modification coming under scrutiny, is with the Oslow Norway massacre. The Brevik guy injected pure niccotine into his .223 rounds bc it only takes a few Mg of the stuff in your system to be a fatal overdose.
    In cases of all gunshot wounds I've witnessed, and brother let me tell you, It's a Many... None of the investigators spend much time studdying the bullets for anything but rifling groves and striations to match to a weapon.
    Given the prolifferation of red polymer tipped bullets, the invisibility of plastics on X-Rays and it's commouflage to a bloody mess, only an overzealous pathologist would ever find let alone question the remains of any RTV in a wound.
    If you look at Hornady's cutaway diagram of their Critical Defense bullet, imagine how unreliable it would be if the red button were removed and the cylindrical cavity were trusted to fill and wedge the tip open on impact. It would likely behave like a wadcutter. But they knew this and they knew that silicone polymer conducts and transfers expansive force.
    I Love my T-Series rounds, but I want a guarauntee they will be All they can be. A simple upgrade procedure has worked for me, so much so, I even upgraded my prized stash of Black Talons with the RTV plug. It was not an impulse decision.
    If you're more fearful of being judged by twelve than carried by six, I sincerely hope your carry ammo performs as well as you trust it. I have found it easier to trust the rounds I intimately inspected and refined with the best of both worlds. But incase I ever have to account for my actions, I will resist the urge to give props to the late Charles Bronson.
    All the best.

  16. #16
    skullfr's Avatar
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    It is like the post on the hydrashock.It is an aid in uniform expansion.I saw test on where they removed the post and the reliability of expansion went down.Also I like the idea of the post in aiding breaking bone as it acts as a small spear point.That is just one old redneck thinkins.

  17. #17
    1uspatriot is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by skullfr View Post
    It is like the post on the hydrashock.It is an aid in uniform expansion.I saw test on where they removed the post and the reliability of expansion went down.Also I like the idea of the post in aiding breaking bone as it acts as a small spear point.That is just one old redneck thinkins.
    Hydrashoks and HST are the only HP rounds I trust to expand without end user modification. For years, I also thought the post inside the hydrashoks was some sort of penetrator, until I poked one with a toothpick and it bent like the softest lead imaginable. I can buy the claim the hydrashok post might keep out fabric plugging but it's not what I'd call a bone crusher. Wide Flat Nose hardcast have that perfected.
    They aren't commonly available in auto calibers because it takes several humans to stop flat nose heavies, there is much more liability from super penetraing rounds winding up in bystanders than liability from rounds that unleash hell inside the appropriate badguy.

  18. #18
    Rikochet is offline Junior Member
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    Attorney ?

    Attorney ? That is silly.
    In a SD shooting you are not claiming you did not mean to shoot Johnny Crackhead.
    You did so deliberately. The bullet type or whether or not there was a bit of silicone
    in the tip would have no bearing on whether you were justified in defending yourself.
    Is a prosecutor going to spend $50,000 on pointless lab tests and analysis to determine
    if the bit of silicone caused more or less damage. Again, you are not claiming you did not
    mean to hurt Johnny, you shot to stop him because he was going to kill you or inflict
    great bodily harm to you. If the prosecutor says "Ladies and Gentlemen, that guy put
    silicone in his bullets", (Gasp !) you simply say "so what" ? If you were justified in shooting
    him, it would make no difference. Besides, the silicone keeps the bare lead from corroding.
    All those uncertainties and fear of legal stuff floating around in your head could slow you
    down just enough for Johnny to get the first shot off, or stab you, or cave your skull in.
    If I were that paranoid about using a gun for defense, I would sell them and buy some
    OC Spray.

  19. #19
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    ...Aha!
    Here we have someone who has never:
    1. Stood trial for anything, civil or criminal, and
    2. Has never served on a criminal-court jury.

    While Rikochet's post reflects the righteous shooter's reality with great accuracy, it ignores the other reality: that of the typical adversarial courtroom.

    Then, of course, there's his straw-man conclusion: "If I were that paranoid about using a gun for defense, I would sell them [sic] and buy some OC Spray."
    The discussion, of course, is not at all about using a gun in self-defense. It's about using home-modified bullets in one's self-defense gun.
    One might realistically be wary of using home-modified bullets, perhaps depending upon the mind-set of local courts, while still being completely willing to use a firearm to end a fight.

    Straw-man arguments are both disparaging and dismissive, and ought to be avoided in rational discussion.

  20. #20
    berettabone is offline Banned
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    My following statements are not the gospel...it is just what I have heard from 2 attorneys, and my CCW instructor, who teaches in 5 different states. Using certain ammunition for a defensive application can be a sticky wicket...........I have been told to only use ammunition for carry, that states on the outside of the box....defense...home defense.....ultra home defense....pretty much anything that states that it is for defensive purposes. They tell me depending on the situation, location, state, et., that if you get into a situation where you have to use your firearm against someone, it is better that your attorney can show the judge or jury, that your ammunition was for defensive purposes only. If you have an ahole DA, and your using some extraordinary or exotic ammo, they can turn that around on you, and try to make it look like you were trying to do more damage than necessary.

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