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  1. #1
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

    This is an interesting article written by one of the instructors @ the Tactical Defense Institute of Ohio


    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power: Buckeye Firearms Assoc.

    It's not the end-all be-all of caliber debate / discussion but it definitely worth taking a look at.


    About the author:

    Greg Ellifritz is a 16-year veteran police officer, spending the last 11 years as the fulltime tactical training officer for his central Ohio agency. In that position, he is responsible for developing and instructing all of the in-service training for a 57-officer police department. Prior to his training position, he served as patrol officer, bike patrol officer, precision marksman, and field training officer for his agency.

    He has been an active instructor for the Tactical Defense Institute since 2001 and a lead instructor for TDI’s ground fighting, knife fighting, impact weapons, active shooter, and extreme close quarters shooting classes.

    Greg holds instructor, master instructor, or armorer certifications in more than 75 different weapons systems, defensive tactics programs, and law enforcement specialty areas. In addition to these instructor certifications, Greg has trained with most of the leading firearms and edged weapons instructors in the country.

    Greg has been an adjunct instructor for the Ohio Peace Officer’s Training Academy, teaching firearms, defensive tactics, bike patrol, knife defense and physical fitness topics. He has taught firearms and self defense classes at the national and international level through the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, The American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers and Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police. He has a Master’s degree in Public Policy and Management and has written for several publications including: ‘The Firearms Instructor”, “Ohio Police Chief”, “Combat Handguns”, “Concealed Carry Magazine” and “The Journal of the American Women’s Self Defense Association”.

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  3. #2
    chessail77's Avatar
    chessail77 is offline Senior Member
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    Excellent article ...thanks for posting it...Semper Fi.....JJ


    GO HOKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  4. #3
    FNISHR is offline Member
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    That was very interesting, indeed. Thanks for putting it up here.

  5. #4
    KenMac is offline Junior Member
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    Interesting read!! Thanks

  6. #5
    denner's Avatar
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    Great article VA, here's another one worth a read seemingly they pretty much come to the same conclusion.

    What You Need to Know About Stopping Power

    About the author: Lt. Dave Spaulding (Ret.)
    Dave Spaulding is a retired law enforcement officer with 28 years of experience. Having retired as a Lieutenant from the Montgomery County (Ohio) Sheriff's Office, he worked in all facets of law enforcement including Communications, Corrections, Court Security, Patrol, Evidence Collection, Investigations, Undercover Operations and Training. He spent 12 years on the SWAT team, 8 of which as Training Officer. He supervised his agency's training program for five years and spent five years as the commander of a federally funded, multi-agency Narcotics Task Force that worked investigations from Miami to Seattle.
    Dave has a Bachelor's Degree in Social Psychology from the University of Dayton with a minor in Physical Education. He is a graduate of most of the major firearms training schools including Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, the Smith & Wesson Academy, the SIG Arms Academy, the Heckler & Koch International Training Division, Defense Training International, CQB Services, Ltd., the Tactical Defense Institute and the Mid South Institute for Self Defense Shooting. He has been a multiple attendee and presenter at the international training conferences for ASLET and IALEFI and was the host for the 2004 international training conference for IALEFI. He has served as an adjunct instructor for H & K, the Tactical Defense Institute and is a past president of the Ohio Tactical Officer's Association.

  7. #6
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    JerryMac is offline Junior Member
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    Very Good articles, I am an avid believer in shot placement, and multiple shots, shoot what ya bring is my opinion....

  8. #7
    NMpops is offline Junior Member
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    A 10 year study to tell us what we already knew. If hit in the right spot all the major rounds (.38, .357. 9mm, .40, .45) are all about the same!

  9. #8
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    Caliber doesn't count until the shooter has achieved adequate shot placement. It has, and always will be that way. The old saying that "a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45", has been around much longer than most of the highly learned authors that bless us with their thoughts on long-established experience.

  10. #9
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMpops View Post
    A 10 year study to tell us what we already knew. If hit in the right spot all the major rounds (.38, .357. 9mm, .40, .45) are all about the same!

    While that may be the case for some, there are plenty that don't know and even for those of us that do know, it's always nice to have supporting data.

  11. #10
    johnme is offline Junior Member
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    I will Save this info for my ccw classes, that ? always comes out.
    I stopped at a lgs just kill time, bad work :] a lady and the sales person slid over to me looking threw the glass , holding her new ccw card in her hand.
    She seemed pissed off at the sales man for showing the 9mm pistols to her. I heard her say 2' from me. { I want a one stop shot gun } ! I had to step
    in and told her I am A NRA instructor and can I help ? sales man smiled at me, like thanks ! Told her about the new sd ammo and everyone needs a22lr
    pistol to cross training, with the price of ammo ! Someone missed a big part of teaching her the basics !

  12. #11
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    Thanks for sharing this information. I found this information some time ago on my own trying to defend my position that shot placement beats all other criteria including caliber. Bigger is better *but* accurate bullet placement, no matter what caliber you fancy, is the show stopper we all seek in a self defense situation.

    My mentors on the "stopping power" issue as far as handguns are concerned were two ER doctors who also happen to be avid handgunners. These guys have seen and treated more gunshots between the two of them than many of us can fathom.

    And their conclusions echo the above data almost perfectly. Carry and shoot a gun that you can place fast and accurate follow ups with and let caliber and all that fall further down the list of essentials.

    VooDoo

  13. #12
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    Basically what he is stating is carry the weapon you(not anyone else) feel comfortable carrying and shooting and be sure to use hollow points(just about any brand) for defense....... Good article........

  14. #13
    zeke4351 is offline Junior Member
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    I call BS on these self proclaimed experts. They leave out things to make their articles look like that they know what they are talking about. A lot of people have been shot with the 10mm because the FBI and a lot of other LE agencies used to carry it at one time. Why does this yoyo not even mention it? Because it would ruin his whole story.

  15. #14
    zeke4351 is offline Junior Member
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    Also I have noticed where everyplace this picture gets posted on a gun forum the 10mm is left off the bottom where it was originally included. Beware of the things you read and see on the various gun forums and do your own research other places.

  16. #15
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeke4351 View Post
    I call BS on these self proclaimed experts. They leave out things to make their articles look like that they know what they are talking about. A lot of people have been shot with the 10mm because the FBI and a lot of other LE agencies used to carry it at one time. Why does this yoyo not even mention it? Because it would ruin his whole story.
    Quote Originally Posted by zeke4351 View Post
    Also I have noticed where everyplace this picture gets posted on a gun forum the 10mm is left off the bottom where it was originally included. Beware of the things you read and see on the various gun forums and do your own research other places.

    "Self Proclaimed expert"

    Greg's (the author) bio and back ground is included at the bottom of the first post, I'd love to see your resume. As far as "Yoyo" is concerned, you might want to do a couple things before resulting to name calling:

    1: Do your own research re: the 10mm. The FBI did not use it long, and the number of agencies that issue it is few.

    2: If you're going to use a photo of penetration and expansion to back any kind of argument, you might want to find one that hasn't been photoshopped.

    3: The author had no end-game with the article and I've never heard him refer to himself as an expert, and I actually know the guy. How including the 10mm would invalidate his argument (what is the supposed argument?) is beyond me. I'm sure if he had enough data to show the 10mm he would have, but the fact of the matter is that the 10mm is not in much use.

  17. #16
    zeke4351 is offline Junior Member
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    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

    The mushroom has been added somewhere but leaving that off you can tell the rest is real. The man might be your best friend but the fact remains he left out 10mm on purpose and never bothered to mention that it was left out and why. I have a State Police issued 1076 S&W in my safe right now along with some of their ammo that has their initials in the base of the brass. The ammo is full power and not the sissy FBI loads. If the man had mentioned the 10mm it would have changed his whole story around so he left it out. It is what it is no matter what you don't like about what I have said. The 10mm was used by a lot of agency's and lot of people shot with it. The 10mm is not used anywhere now that I know of but he says he went back 10 years right?

  18. #17
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeke4351 View Post
    The mushroom has been added somewhere but leaving that off you can tell the rest is real. The man might be your best friend but the fact remains he left out 10mm on purpose and never bothered to mention that it was left out and why. I have a State Police issued 1076 S&W in my safe right now along with some of their ammo that has their initials in the base of the brass. The ammo is full power and not the sissy FBI loads. If the man had mentioned the 10mm it would have changed his whole story around so he left it out. It is what it is no matter what you don't like about what I have said. The 10mm was used by a lot of agency's and lot of people shot with it.

    Ok, so just what are you saying that the 10mm would have changed regarding "his story" I'm just not seeing it.

  19. #18
    zeke4351 is offline Junior Member
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    If the 10mm information had been used in this guys study all would have not turned out even like he says. It would have shown it to be superior to the other hand gun calibers and all the talk about all calibers being equal would have went down the drain after people swearing for years that caliber makes no difference.

  20. #19
    borris is offline Member
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    W O W ! Someone Is Stuck On 10 ! Y Not 11, L.O.L.

  21. #20
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    "Ellifritz’s study looked at over 1800 shootings and concluded that the average number of rounds for incapacitation was 2.08 for the .45; 2.36 for the .40; and 2.45 for the 9mm. All very close. Again, your decision."

    "What about carrying a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm, etc? Since these guns require bigger and wider frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal and weigh more. Try carrying one of them around for just a few days and see how it feels. Width is more important than length for a carry gun. These large guns, although they have slightly better overall stopping power than the 9mm, .45, and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control, accuracy, and practical use. Again, it depends mostly on you and your fundamentals, shot placement skills, and practice. Another consideration now is cost and availability of ammo. Can you afford to practice regularly with this caliber? Larger caliber ammunition is generally more expensive than smaller caliber ammunition."

    "The author believes concealed carry shooters should focus on developing their fundamental shooting abilities and accuracy skills, rather than overly-focusing on their gun, calibers, and equipment. It is the shooter’s ability and skill at placing whatever caliber rounds (he/she chooses to carry in their handgun of choice) on target consistently that determines whether they will live or die in a deadly encounter."

    The articles above focus on popular calibers used for self defense and law enforcement. The 10mm would not fall into this category. There was a reason the .40cal was developed and the 10mm dropped by the FBI as a primary cartridge.

    The Best Handgun Caliber for Your Concealed Carry Weapon? - USA Carry

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