Originally Posted by BeefyBeefo

Just out of curiosity, what exactly did they say in the magazine about it not expanding properly out of the 3" barrel of the XDSC. I'm just curious, although I feel that it would expand plenty and be plenty effective in a BG if you can place your shots....just like with any other caliber I might add. I'm just curious as to what exactly the magazine says....

-Jeff-

Off the top of my head I believe that the 9mm JHP bullet in the 124-135grn range DID NOT expand fully when fired from a sub-compact (XD-GLOCK-TARUS)semi-auto frame into gellaton at 8yrds resulting in less than stellar performance by manufacturer's claims.

Muzzel velocity was greatly reduced to the 700-900FPS range being fired from a 3" barrel instead of the normal 1000+FPS (longer barrel) to achieve max. spread for max. damage/penetration.....

I'll get the aritcle and try to post it, cause I'm sure my facts are a bit "fuzzy". But I DO remember them questioning if buying "defensive ammo" was worth the cost.....or stick with FMJ target ammo to get better results.

I'll post it ASAP.

K found the article: and yes my info off the top of my head was flawed.......(read soooo much stuff it's all becomming a blurrr)

Anyways,

I omitted the intro, but he's basically taking about how popular 9mm SC have become and how good they are. And he goes on to compare barrel lengths in GLOCKS... a 17 being full sized......19 being compact......26 being sub-compact etc....

The ammo he's providing info on:
Carbon 115 DPX JHP
Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr +P+ JHP
Winchester 147gr JHP
Winchester 147gr SXT JHP

....not sure where he gets the rest of his ammo info.....not documented or listed.......


COMBAT HANDGUNS - June08'
By: Chuck Taylor - "Best Loads for Mini-9s"

Muzzle Velocities

"This means that muzzle velocities are also substantially reduced, making JHP expansion less that optimum. Let's take the new Springfield Armory XD-9 series as a further example. The "Tactial" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of a "standard" model mesures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzel velocity by a full 40 percent.
Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 FPS from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 FPS. While it narrows the field of which bullets will or will not expand, it isn't a disaster by any means. Even at 1120 FPS, several loads will have at least some expansion.
However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 FPS.
Suddenly, our presumption of substantial JHP expansion is no longer valid. In fact, at 840 FPS, with most JHP's any degree of expansion would be exceptional. And that is what the small 9mm and .38 Special snub have in common: muzzle velocities reduced to the point where, more often that not, JHP expansion cannot be expected.
Even with the 4-inch compact, many 9mm JHP's don't reliably upset in ballistic gellatin. For this reason, the 147-grain loads should catigorically be avoided. Only rarely to they break 950 FPS from a 4-inch barrel, so while they're highly accuarate and usually shoot to point-of-aim at 25 meters, bullet expansion is, at best, negligible.
A 3-inch barreled sub-compacts gets even worse with velocities in the 800 FPS range being common. If the JHP won't expand at 950 FPS, it certainly won't expand at 800 FPS, so once again the 147-grainers should be disqualified from consideration."

He goes on.....

Loads that Work

"One load that shoots exceptionally well and demonstrates good expansion from a 4-inch compact is Hornaday's TAP 124-grain JHP. Utilizing their excellent XTP bullet, accuracy, functional reliability, low muzzel flash and good terminal ballistic performance are all achievable with this load. For these reasons, the 124-grain TAP has become popular and prolific police service load. Another notable performer in a 4-inch barreled compact is Winchester's Ranger SXT 127-grain +P+ JHP. It, too, is a popular police load and is highly sought-after by civilians as well.
MORE......'
Clearly, the 3-inch sub-compact 9mm in the version that limits ammunition the most, so careful testing is required to determine which loads perform well, or at least satisfactorily in it. After years of investigation, I've found only 2 loads that meet this criterion.
First is CarBon's 115-grain DPX JHP, utilizing the supurb Barnes-X JHP bullet. Superbly designed, it features a solid copper bullet with 6 "petals" that begin to peel back with only minimal hydraulic "push" in the hollow cavity. Even at the low velocities produced from a 3-inch barrel, the result is a surprisingly uniform "ceiling fan" effect as the petals react, thus transmitting maximum energy (and shock) to the target producing the largest possible wound channel.
The second 9mm load that performs in a sub-compact in the Glaser Blue. Weighing a mere 88 grains, it features a frangible bullet jacket with a hard rubbrer nose-plug, within are suspended a quantity of chilled lead shot. When the bullet impacts, the hard rubber plug is driven backwards, rupturing the jacket and releasing the shot pellets, causing immediate energy release into the target and a terrific wound channel."

"In summary, compact & sub-compact 9mm pistols are not only here to stay, but continue to increase in popularity. They;'e easy to shoot, more than sufficiently accurate for any tactical purpose and minimally inconvienient to conceal. In addition, they're controlable, utilize a relatively large capacity magazine (a popular issue with many shooters) and require no special maintenance or special holsters. As such, they offer much to anyone who has need of their lightweight and small size.
However, this being said, they can achieve even better performance if you carefully select ammunition you intend to use in them. All ammo isn't the same and the high speed, life-and-death environment inherent to the combat handgun confrontation demands that we give ourselves every advantage."


ow...my hands hurt.

Not sure if any of it really matters in the long run. Shot placement and accuracy are more important IMO. I have no plans to change my choice in Defensive ammo at this point. It was good read though.

Originally Posted by HadEmAll

Hornady TAP is the ammunition line, the bullet is the XTP.

No...they have the TAP FPD (for personal defense), and the XTP. They're two different bullets.

edit: I dunno, they have the TAP, and the XTP as separate loads. Maybe the TAP uses the XTP bullet, but they call it the TAP. I dunno.

Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy

I dunno.

The Hornady website shows that the only hollowpoint pistol bullet Hornady makes is the XTP.

Originally Posted by HadEmAll

The Hornady website shows that the only hollowpoint pistol bullet Hornady makes is the XTP.

They have the TAP, and the XTP. The TAP uses the XTP bullet, but they also have an XTP line that uses the XTP bullet but isn't a TAP. https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_ses...85adead52ee5b6

Both have the XTP bullet, but one is the TAP and one is the HP. I think the only difference is the TAP has the black nickel coating on the casing. It says on the description that it uses charges that minimize muzzle flash to help with night vision. The XTP is a very good bullet that shows superior expansion qualities. I wouldn't mind carrying the 200gr +P TAP in .45 auto. If nothing else, they look cool as hell.

to be honest, it DOES matter what brand you get, because the shape of hollow-point rounds makes some rounds mis-load in certain guns. i think it's good to shoot a box (as expensive as they are) through your gun first and make sure they load properly.

if you use your gun for home protection, and it doesn't feed the round into the barrel when you work your slide, it's not a very effective tool for home protection =)

i've shot hydrashocks and hornady taps through my 9mm p226, and they work fine, but it's always good to be on the safe side and check

Originally Posted by skyfire

to be honest, it DOES matter what brand you get, because the shape of hollow-point rounds makes some rounds mis-load in certain guns. i think it's good to shoot a box (as expensive as they are) through your gun first and make sure they load properly.

if you use your gun for home protection, and it doesn't feed the round into the barrel when you work your slide, it's not a very effective tool for home protection =)

i've shot hydrashocks and hornady taps through my 9mm p226, and they work fine, but it's always good to be on the safe side and check

Reliability is the first criteria of a defensive round, no doubt about it. However, at least in quality modern guns, all the upper-tier rounds seem to work fine, and are designed with reliable feeding in mind. Of course they should still be tested in your particular pistol. I think everyone in the thread sort of assumed that was obvious, but you're right, sometimes people need to be reminded of the basics.

I voted for 'any' because I don't know enough to really weigh in. Newbie, here, so I'm trying to sort through all of this. I tend to think that it can't really matter too much as long as it actually fires and hits him/her where I want.

That said, I bought a higher priced (and assumed grade) of ammo to serve the bedside and carry purpose, more for perceived reliability than accuracy, stopping power, etc.

That ammo is Federal Premium 124 grain hydra-shok. It was priced more favorably than other 'high-end' rounds.

Hopefully, I'll never need to know if it really matters.

Originally Posted by Elmer Gantry

I tend to think that it can't really matter too much as long as it actually fires and hits him/her where I want.

+1. A 685gr JHP from a .50BMG won't do a damn thing to a person if it misses, and the same goes for any bullet.

1. Train to make the hits...any bullet that hits COM is better than another that misses.
2. Pick a premium SD load that you can afford and is readily available.
3. Check for cycling reliability. If it works, carry with confidence.

I take it a step further and find one that will give me the most reliable expansion coming out of my 3" barrel. But as long as I'm carrying a good quality SD load and make the hits, I'll be fine.

I have a P01 and I prefer Speer Lawman FMJ 115/124gr for the range and Gold Dot JHP 124gr for self defense, that's what I look for when I shop.


Edit:

However, since I've discovered Walmart, I've cut down on Lawman but still look for deals by the case online.

HSTs are what the Sheriff's Dept recommends in my neck of the woods.

I chronographed 230gr Golden Sabers thru my 3 in.Colt New Agent at 790, 802 and 808 feet per second (800 avg.); I don't have a facility to check for expansion, anybody ever done that with this brand of hollow points from a 3 in. barrel?

Now that I see what got the most votes ...
I think I'll try them on for size

thanks yall !

The one that hits were I aim it... since spinal hit and head hits are the only true one-shot-stoppers...

The rest is marketing BS and ego.

JeffWard

I stick with good ole JHP. Anyone try Hornady for .45 ACP

How do you guys like the Hornady Critical Defense.

Fiocchi makes a pretty good HP, so does Magtech. Just wanted to toss a couple unlisted names out there.

Really most any will do what you want it to. I advise people to try a bunch of them. See what their gun likes to shoot best. Most guns I've ever fired have an ammo preference. Some guns no matter how good the ammo is supposed to be don't like to feed it and that makes it an unreliable round in my book. So try a bunch of them. See what not only feeds well but groups well. slug weight, the powder, the shape of the slug all play a part. Some guns like a hotter load while another gun might be too hot and it just flies all over the place. Once you find the one your gun(s) like the most that is the best ammo around. At least for you.

Any hollowpoint that feeds reliably and shoots to POA suits me fine.

Currently using Federal 147gr HydraShok. Switched from the 124gr HydraShoks a couple of years ago. More mass on target and the drop in muzzle velocity (by comparison) is insignificant, IMO, within 75 feet (expected max engagement range).

I shoot max distance outdoors as most indoor facilities are 50 feet or less. At 50 or less I can place my shots easily. At 75 I can too, as long as I am slow and deliberate. Still, situation dependant, I would opt for 50 or closer if circumstances permitted. Farther than 75 feet/25 yards is generally the tactical province of something with more than 4" of barrel.

Whatever premium ammo is on sale. I can't find any locally, so last time around I had to order from ammo to go. I ordered Rangers for the XD and GoldDots for the G36 because they were the cheaper ones at the time.

I prefer Hydra Shoks but it's sometimes difficult to justify the cost compared to other hollow points that may work as well.

I Was using Federal Hydra Shock for all my carry needs. On duty, at home or concealed. I did make a switch to Extreme Shock EPR and AFR rounds.

black talon

Where do you get these? It was my understanding that they have not been produced for several years.