Sorry...that comment was a bit off color. I keep my XD loaded with 124gr +P SB Gold Dots...I can't imagine that wouldn't be sufficient, nor would any other top notch SD be. The heaviest .40 bullets (180gr) kicked too hard for me. I would imagine the same would occur with a 147gr in 9mm, especially on an even smaller setup.
There is waay too much interest in equipment selection over training and practice. Even thermonuclear bombing is useless if you can't properly operate your equipment or accurately and reliably hit your target.
For the record, at self defense distances, clothed gelatin simulations have shown that, in general, for different bullet weights of the same ammo, at standard SAMMI pressures, 147gr 9mm JHP subsonic rounds have greater penetration and less recoil than 124gr JHP.
I have to jump in on this one. Much is made of the 9MM and the selections of ammo. I personally carry 124+P Gold Dots in my 226 and I am very comfortable with that load.
I have never shot anyone, and hope I don't have too. I have taken up the slack in my Glock(s) trigger and prayed for the best.
For many years my load selection was 115 Grain Cor-bon +p+ and then Federal 115 +p+. These loads were fired in either a G17 or a 228. The city I worked, at that time, had a huge wild dog problem. It was not uncommon to destroy a several dogs a week. I was never impressed with the 115's killing power. I had shot coyotes with my 357 and it was always a devestating kill.
At the persuasion of the FBI, I switched to the Federal 147 HS. The FBI, in the late 90's, thought this was the best load. They have the resources and people to study these loads and their performance. The 147 worked well in my pistols, but I admit that I haven't used it much since I have moved from the 9 as a duty pistol.
Back to the 124+p Gold Dots in my Sig 226. These were given to my by friends of mine in the FBI and it is their current duty round. I think that the 124 is a good compromise.
Winchester® Ammunition is proud to announce that it recently was awarded a second contract to service the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). In addition to its contract with the FBI to supply 40 Smith & Wesson loads, Winchester Ammunition will also supply 9mm Luger ammunition.
The new 9mm Luger contract is worth a maximum of $54 million, and the two contracts combined will be worth a maximum of $108 million over five years — the largest ammunition contracts in the history of federal law enforcement.
Winchester Ammunition will produce 9mm bonded service ammunition, training ammunition, reduced lead training ammunition and frangible ammunition for the FBI for one base year, with four, one-year renewal options.
“With the latest advancement in our ammunition lines, the 9mm bonded design combines all the best-known technology features into one bullet to deliver the superior performance required by the FBI,” said Dick Hammett, president, Winchester Ammunition. “It’s sure to be a success with our nation’s law enforcement.”
Winchester’s 9mm service ammunition utilizes a 147-grain, bonded hollow point bullet and was selected over all other rounds tested. The FBI evaluates the terminal ballistics of each round by shooting a specific test protocol through various barriers such as heavy cloth, wallboard, plywood, steel and auto glass into ballistic gelatin.
In addition to the FBI, the contract impacts many agencies both inside and outside the Department of Justice, including the Drug Enforcement Administration, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and U.S. Marshal Service.
“On behalf of Winchester, we are extremely proud that our nation’s premier law enforcement agency has elected to use Winchester Ammunition in its mission of protecting and defending the United States,” said Hammett.
You maybe right as my information is several months old and yours is pretty new. The ammo and info I have came from an FBI agent and not a internet press release. Thanks.
Does anyone know exactly which 9MM Winchester round the FBI is using?
I spoke with a local FBI agent and firearms instructor. Here is what they are currently using:
9MM-147 Grain Hydrashock, being replaced by Winchester 147 Grain Ranger
40SW-165 Grain Speer Gold Dot, being replaced by Winchester 165 Grain Ranger
45ACP-230 Grain Remington Golden Saber. Not being replaced.
223REM-62 Grain Federal Tactical. Because of Federals military contract they will be using Winchester, specifics unknown.
He has not seen any of the new Winchester ammo and doesn't expect it to hit the field for several months.
I didn't ask about the 10MM or the 38 Spec. as I don't think many of those are in circulation.
So I grabbed a couple boxes from the local wally-world of some Remington and Winchester JHP... From memory (as it's sitting in the closet at home) I think the Winchester is 147g JHP and the Remington is 115g JHP.
I figured I'd give the lower and higher ends of the 9mm powder choices a try in the 226 to get the feel for the difference. Unfortunately the "happy medium" 124g wasn't even available.. Possibly a popular "happy medium".
Having read through this thread the newbie is once more completely and utterly confused. Yay! .... So I'm guessing I'll typically keep what I know runs through the guns no hickup, with caution not to run 147 all the time, just once in a while.. Infact I doubt I'll go with any more 147 once I choose a good 124 (I guess) with decent 9mm power but still I guess a decent powder for range rounds as well. ?? Shoot, I dunno even what that Atlantic Arms range ammo at my gun range is running.. All I know is it's been fairly decent ammo in FMJ's and the Sig loves it.
I do get the concept of "shoot what you intend to bet the farm on if you need it" though.
As far as I know, and based on what I believe....you can shoot as much 147gr 9mm ammo as you want without any problems from it. It's when you get into the +p ammo that you MIGHT have to worry about it (depending on the gun)....
Most my 9mm's have liked the 147. I mostly use them for range fun so I try to load what each pistol likes best. My Springer likes a 124 but the Sig likes the bugger slug, My Glocks and XD's (all gone now) likes the bigger slug and loaded hot!
It's a lot of fun looking for that magic load a gun will like best. Though it can get expensive picking up several different powders, slugs etc but when you find the magic round it's great!
Both my Kel-Tec and Walther P-38 seem to shoot the heavier rounds more accurately. However, it may be the shooter.
My friends, family, and I have always used wal mart 115 gr for plinking and target shooting. Most of us keep a mag or two loaded with 124 gr JHP for home defense/ccw.
I personally use CorBin 115g +P for my 9mm PD round, I would follow that with 124's but never a 147.
Federal 9BPLE 115gr. + P +
124 in all of my guns.
Cor-Bon 115gr. +P JHP
I was told to use in SD what you shoot at the range.
I shoot the federal 115 fmj at the range.
Hornady Critical Defense 115 for SD. They sell out quick around here!!
I use Winchester Rangers 147 grain. when I shoot my range ammo federal 124 grain I can't tell in recoil difference. Maybe I'm just that good j/k
I recently switched to Ranger 147gr....impressed with reports I have read from different agencies. I also still keep 124gr. Gold Dots on hand.
For the longest time it was written that hollow points would not expand at speeds less than 1,000 fps. I read more recently that the number had been reduced to 950 on some of the newer designs.
In any case I would be more interested in the fps than the weight of the bullet. I would want the heaviest bullet that would travel at 1,000 fps from my gun's barrel (advertised fps are usually from sealed barrels of 4" to 6").
I will always tell people that shot placement is key to a bullets terminal performance. with that in mind, any 9 ammo will serve the purpose of self defense. I have kept bullet weights of from 115 to 147 in my pistols...
The most commonly accepted tactic I've come across in my reading has the first two shot to the largest vital area with the third shot to the head.
So if you have three assailants you go tap-tap to the center of mass to each of the three and then go back and go tap to the head of each one that is still standing.
The thinking on this is that the center of mass (sternum) offers the largest target that can be quickly acquired and even if you miss the 10 ring, you will likely do damage. Whereas in a high stress situation a first shot to the head is harder to make than a first shot to the sternum.
Heavy clothing or a bullet proof vest make the re-visit to the head a wise choice.
I have yet to read any expert suggesting that the first shot be made to the head. The main advantages of the 9mm are the large round count available and the light recoil. It allows you to engage multiple assailants with the tap-tap plus tap as described above.