View Poll Results: Which one do you choose for home defense?

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  • 12 Gauge Pump w/ Buckshot

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  • .45 ACP Drawer Gun

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  • 9mm/.38 Special Carry Gun

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Thread: A bump in the night... What do you reach for?

  1. #41
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    My roommate's presence is unmistakeable. If it's him moving around I'll know it, but I'd always be sure it wasn't him before blowing his nuticles all over the floor. I'd cage her so the worst case scenario (her getting shot by the intruder) wouldn't happen.
    Are you actually serious about shooting for the "nuticles?" I hope you're joking...it's hard to tell in this medium.

    I am still trying to wrap my mind around caging the dog. Even if the situation goes really badly, isn't it better if the animal takes a bullet from an intruder, rather than you or your roommate? I mean, I like dogs and all...but it's just a dog. And you're giving up the ability to force the intruder to fight on two fronts - you and the dog - and thus giving up a major tactical advantage.

    And even though she's a pit, she is by no means intimidating whatsoever.
    I've seen her when someone she doesn't know steps through the door, and it would scare me if I didn't know her.
    So, ummmm, which is it? Is the dog scary or not?
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Are you actually serious about shooting for the "nuticles?" I hope you're joking...it's hard to tell in this medium.

    I am still trying to wrap my mind around caging the dog. Even if the situation goes really badly, isn't it better if the animal takes a bullet from an intruder, rather than you or your roommate? I mean, I like dogs and all...but it's just a dog. And you're giving up the ability to force the intruder to fight on two fronts - you and the dog - and thus giving up a major tactical advantage.

    So, ummmm, which is it? Is the dog scary or not?
    Lol, well if I was the bad guy, the nuts are the last place I'd wanna take a bullet. But in all seriousness, if the situation arose and I felt the need to use a firearm, I'd go for the two in the chest, one in the head. It might be better for my sake physically if my dog took a bullet instead of me, but I'm a dog lover to the 6th degree, and I would personally rather take a bullet than have her shot. Forcing the bad guy to converge on two targets rather than one makes sense, but I wouldn't use her as a decoy.

    If I didn't know the dog, it would spook me, but not make me think I should fear for my life. If it was a 120-pound rott snarling and charging full speed, I'd turn around and get out. But a little 42-pound puppy yapping? It's never happened so I have no idea how she would react. Pit bulls typically make terrible guard dogs as they are naturally very friendly with humans. I dunno...guess I'll never know unless it actually happens. In any case, she would hear someone before I would, and if she barks anywhere in the apartment, you can hear her. If someone had broken in and was deterred by a dog, he'd be out the door before either of us left my room. A dog's bark is an instant signal that someone in the house probably knows you're there. So whether or not he left would probably be based on his attitude toward whether or not he wanted a confrontation. As far as I know, very few people break and enter uninvited without some sort of weapon, so I would assume any intruder would be armed.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Are you actually serious about shooting for the "nuticles?" I hope you're joking...it's hard to tell in this medium.
    I think it was Massad Ayoob in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" that actually recommended shooting someone in the pelvis, citing the mental intimidation (especially for a man) of having a gun pointed there, plus the fact of the arteries in that region and the results of a shattered pelvis making it very difficult to move. I don't really agree with it thinking that in a stressful situation I'm going for a BIG target like COM (a head shot seems absurd to me unless I'm within arms reach and can give the BG a nice powder burn as well), but it is an interesting opinion.

  4. #44
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    I think it was Massad Ayoob in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" that actually recommended shooting someone in the pelvis, citing the mental intimidation (especially for a man) of having a gun pointed there, plus the fact of the arteries in that region and the results of a shattered pelvis making it very difficult to move. I don't really agree with it thinking that in a stressful situation I'm going for a BIG target like COM (a head shot seems absurd to me unless I'm within arms reach and can give the BG a nice powder burn as well), but it is an interesting opinion.
    Mas covered this in some depth when I took his LFI-1 course. He doesn't advocate it as an recommended point of aim (or at least didn't when I took the course) in an actual fight. He likes the pelvic point of aim when holding someone at gunpoint, for three reasons:

    1. So you have an unobstructed view of the hands.
    2. The intimidation factor you mentioned.
    3. It's his opinion that a pelvic shot can be relied on to instantly immobilize a person.

    I can agree with the first reason, though of course Low Ready accomplishes the same thing.

    I am not sure anyone, and even less so a hardened criminal, would be more intimidated by a pelvic point of aim versus a competent-looking person at Low Ready. And if you order him to put his hands on or above his head, as you should, you can aim at his upper chest and still view his hands. Of course, he may decline to raise his hands, at which point you can revert to the pelvic POI or Low Ready.

    Based on some fairly convincing arguments against the pelvic POI made by medical doctors, I am very shaky on reason three. Several physicians I've read maintained that typical handgun bullets are not powerful enough to reliably shatter the very sturdy pelvis. They also stated that a fractured (as opposed to shattered) pelvis will not terribly impede movement, especially in a strong and/or highly motivated individual under stress. Thus, I find Ayoob's reasoning here a little suspect. I also note that the pelvis may be hard to hit simply because it is impossible to see, since I do not have x-ray or CAT-scan eyeballs. Further, if the bad guy has a gun and your pelvic shot does manage to knock him down, he can still shoot you.

    I agree that head shots will be very challenging in a real fight where everyone is moving. I think your analysis of an arm's length head shot is spot on, though obviously a very large percentage of fights do take place at arm's length. The other place it might be feasible is in a hostage-rescue type scenario, but so few armed citizens will ever face that situation that it can almost be discounted.
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  5. #45
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    The gun pointed at the crotchal region would be the most intimidating to me. A head shot you probably won't feel assuming the bullet penetrates the skull and causes immediate unconsciousness from brain trauma, and any body or limb shots can be healed to a certain degree, assuming they don't kill you, but a man's penis...that's something that could never be the same if it gets shot, and the thought of getting shot in the genitals at least renders the thought of maximum pain. I did some pretty extensive reading on the infamous "one shot stop," and from a physiological standpoint, a single shot that incapacitates the body (not necessarily kills) is a direct hit on the brain and CNS, more specifically the upper spinal cord. This makes sense, as some psychological factors can decrease or completely ignore the physical pain (especially when on cocaine, meth, or PCP). But at the same time, psychological factors can be the cause of immediate incapacitation rather than a fatal shot. Rage over being shot could overcome physical pain, while fear of being shot or killed could make the perception of pain much more than it really is. But generally speaking, people feel pain when they get shot, and a lot of that comes from overly believing that being shot means death. For a lot of people, they feel the amount of pain they think they should, rather than what the body's natural reaction should give them. I know there have been times I didn't realize I had done something that should hurt until I noticed I had done it. I slid a van door completely shut on my thumb and never felt a thing 'til I tried to move and realized my thumb was crushed. I chopped part of my finger off with a hatchet and didn't feel a thing 'til I saw the chunk of finger laying three inches away. If I'm reading while I get a tattoo, I barely feel the gun. The second I stop actively deverting my attention to something besides the subtle feeling on my skin, the pain sets in real quick. People tend to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear...and more often than not they feel what they want to feel. In the self defense category, it's an advantage when they think a bullet is really supposed to hurt. On the flipside, it's a serious disadvantage when they know anything but trauma to the brain and CNS will instantly drop you.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The other place it might be feasible is in a hostage-rescue type scenario, but so few armed citizens will ever face that situation that it can almost be discounted.
    What are you talking about? Just the other day I encountered a hostage situation. No, wait. There I go again mixing up my video games and real life.

  7. #47
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    Might have missed it but didn't see anyone mention the fact that for the right load in a shotgun, you can far more effectively keep the nastiness to befall the BG in that room, rather than sending high-velocity holes though various walls (especially with little tikes in their beds upstairs.. that's a concern)..

    So you can effectively "pepper the perp" without giving your kids or your neighbors a taste as (I assume here) bird or deer shot is contained by walls far better than a stray 9mm, .357sig or .45 acp round.

    Shotgun:
    Perp goes bye bye and you've got some drywall and painting to do, but the kids stay safe (goal #1).

    Pistol:
    Might send a round though more than one wall, so even if you air-condition the perp, you might hit something or someone you really don't wanna.. which could make for a reeeeeeally bad scene in a father's life.

    ... all that from a guy looking at pistols for home defense.. go figure.. Well, range shooting also, but I'd be pretty darn sure of my firing angle.. downstream from friendlies.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    Might have missed it but didn't see anyone mention the fact that for the right load in a shotgun, you can far more effectively keep the nastiness to befall the BG in that room, rather than sending high-velocity holes though various walls (especially with little tikes in their beds upstairs.. that's a concern)..

    So you can effectively "pepper the perp" without giving your kids or your neighbors a taste as (I assume here) bird or deer shot is contained by walls far better than a stray 9mm, .357sig or .45 acp round.

    Shotgun:
    Perp goes bye bye and you've got some drywall and painting to do, but the kids stay safe (goal #1).

    Pistol:
    Might send a round though more than one wall, so even if you air-condition the perp, you might hit something or someone you really don't wanna.. which could make for a reeeeeeally bad scene in a father's life.

    ... all that from a guy looking at pistols for home defense.. go figure.. Well, range shooting also, but I'd be pretty darn sure of my firing angle.. downstream from friendlies.
    My experience tells me that a 12 Guage shotgun (lesser calibers also) will make very nasty holes through both sides of a sheet rock wall and still kill you very dead. If you have several walls between you and precious cargo it might be safe but one wall is no guarantee. Don't count on Sheet rock to protect from any gun suitable for defense against full size people. At 5 ft. a 1 oz. charge of lead pellets acts essentialy like a slug.

    If you hit the perp in a thick zone before your shot/reaches sheetrock it will probably prevent passage into the next room from most rounds. If you miss your target all bets are off.


  9. #49
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    TOF is exactly correct. Check out the tests at www.theboxotruth.com. A shotgun loaded with buckshot (#4 through 00) goes through the same amount of drywall as a 9mm or .45 pistol, approximately 6-7 sheets, which is equivalent to three interior walls. Birdshot may go through less drywall, but being designed to kill little birds, only penetrates 4-5" in unclothed gelatin, which isn't nearly enough to reliably hit vital organs on a human, especially one clad in a coat.

    Any round that penetrates deeply enough to reliably put down a human will also go through several interior walls. Instead of trying to find a magic bullet or load, we need to learn to shoot carefully and make the hits we need to end the fight and keep our family safe.
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 12-12-2007 at 09:52 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Just got an Insight M3 tac light for my glock21, It's my allowance to fall asleep at night... a slight exaggeration, more like dedicated nightstand gun.

    edit: JHPs of course. Federal Premium Hydra-shok.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by toopercentmlk View Post
    Federal Premium Hydra-shok.
    CCI Gold Dot 180gr. JHPs for me. CCI mini-mags in the .22, until I actually go hunting, then I'll grab some Velocitors.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    TOF is exactly correct. Check out the tests at www.theboxotruth.com. A shotgun loaded with buckshot (#4 through 00) goes through the same amount of drywall as a 9mm or .45 pistol, approximately 6-7 sheets, which is equivalent to three interior walls. Birdshot may go through less drywall, but being designed to kill little birds, only penetrates 4-5" in unclothed gelatin, which isn't nearly enough to reliably hit vital organs on a human, especially one clad in a coat.

    Any round that penetrates deeply enough to reliably put down a human will also go through several interior walls. Instead of trying to find a magic bullet or load, we need to learn to shoot carefully and make the hits we need to end the fight and keep our family safe.
    I love this forum.. another lesson learned by the newb here.. I guess I'm not doing such a dumb thing after all then by getting a .45 acp for the job.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    TOF is exactly correct. Check out the tests at www.theboxotruth.com. A shotgun loaded with buckshot (#4 through 00) goes through the same amount of drywall as a 9mm or .45 pistol, approximately 6-7 sheets, which is equivalent to three interior walls. Birdshot may go through less drywall, but being designed to kill little birds, only penetrates 4-5" in unclothed gelatin, which isn't nearly enough to reliably hit vital organs on a human, especially one clad in a coat.

    Any round that penetrates deeply enough to reliably put down a human will also go through several interior walls. Instead of trying to find a magic bullet or load, we need to learn to shoot carefully and make the hits we need to end the fight and keep our family safe.
    This is why the wife and I havent bought a shotgun. If god forbid someone broke in and made it up the stairs shooting them in the hallway puts my daughter on her captains bed in harms way(she wold be behind the perp). With a pistol we have a good chance of hitting the perp and not hitting her. Of course the likelihood of someone making it past the $1k alarm system (little yipping chihuahua) is slim to none.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahlquist View Post
    This is why the wife and I havent bought a shotgun. If god forbid someone broke in and made it up the stairs shooting them in the hallway puts my daughter on her captains bed in harms way(she wold be behind the perp). With a pistol we have a good chance of hitting the perp and not hitting her. Of course the likelihood of someone making it past the $1k alarm system (little yipping chihuahua) is slim to none.
    That's one way to look at it. However, even from an open-choked shotgun, the pattern only spreads about 1" per yard or less. Thus, unless you have a huge home, the shot spread isn't going to be terribly wide. Shoulder weapons are also much easier to shoot well under stress versus a handgun. The vast majority of people will hit much better under stress with a shotgun than with a pistol.

    Anyway, if your backstop is your daughter's room, you should give some extremely serious thought to reconfiguring your fields of fire or changing your tactics. There's no way in hell I'd even think about launching rounds with my daughter directly behind the bad guy.

    A "good chance"?!?!?!?
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    That's one way to look at it. However, even from an open-choked shotgun, the pattern only spreads about 1" per yard or less. Thus, unless you have a huge home, the shot spread isn't going to be terribly wide. Shoulder weapons are also much easier to shoot well under stress versus a handgun. The vast majority of people will hit much better under stress with a shotgun than with a pistol.
    While you have a very good argument here, the tactics are odd due to our floor plan, daughters room is beside stairs to floor below, A determined perp could be in the front or back door and at our bedroom door in 4 seconds. Thats the reason for the dog and he will have company soon (he is currently barking at a possum right now).

    Anyway, if your backstop is your daughter's room, you should give some extremely serious thought to reconfiguring your fields of fire or changing your tactics. There's no way in hell I'd even think about launching rounds with my daughter directly behind the bad guy.
    In all but the most brazen and well executed home invasion we should be able to eliminate the issue by stepping into the hallway (her room and bed it diagonal from ours).

    A "good chance"?!?!?!?
    ok a well tested response?

    Bottom line is yes given a better floor plan it would be non issue.

  16. #56
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    I think you need a bigger dog.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I think you need a bigger dog.
    Wont argue that point, but so far I havent felt like putting a fence on our lot. Besides if he hears a car or even keys jingle he goes ape but he is well behaved enough that when the chain gangs come down cleaning the right of ways he barks from the yard instead of getting too close. He also saved this house from burning down right after we moved in too, the water heater in the garage caught fire and he barked non stop till my wife went out and put the fire out with our extinguisher.

    Remember the size of the dog doesnt matter if there is a big enough bite thats got his back..

  18. #58
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    If you view him as a (very!) portable alarm, that's fine. Good on him for saving you from the fire, by the way! I was mainly kidding - my own dog is a gentle Australian cattle dog. I have no interest in the fighting breeds.

    But of course a bigger dog may slow down the intruder and give you more than four seconds to mount a defense. Then again, some people crate their fighting dogs if there's a fight brewing.

    Getting back on topic, does anyone have an 18"-20" 870 barrel in 12 gauge they want to part with?
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  19. #59
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    I grab my 9mm on the way to my 12 ga...
    If 1 gun is good 2 is better...

  20. #60
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    Mike,
    I bought mine brand new through Midway for under $100. Mossburg brand 870 barrel. Blued, to match my gun, or flat if you want. Works great. Fits perfect.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...264&t=11082005

    Jeff

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