View Poll Results: Which one do you choose for home defense?

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  • 12 Gauge Pump w/ Buckshot

    187 34.89%
  • .45 ACP Drawer Gun

    183 34.14%
  • 9mm/.38 Special Carry Gun

    166 30.97%
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  1. #26
    BRSmith's Avatar
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    Of the three choices, I go with the .45. In my reality I grab the .41 mag and a .45 as backup

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  3. #27
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    I get my G-21 from its resting place. I have night lights placed in each room for clearing the room at night.
    Scott

  4. #28
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    Definately the 12-gauge for me. Grab it, stay in the room, and call 911. If I had family in other rooms that would necessitate going outside my own room, I would probably opt for the .45 and a light.

    In my own reality, I only own a PPK. It stays loaded with corbon JHPs. If anyone wanted in our apartment at night, it wouldn't be that tough but, being a second floor studio, we would know long before they got in.

  5. #29
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    I reach for the phone to let the hospital get a good head start, because unless he is armed and has killed my Dog (in which case a bullet from my gun will be the least of his worries when I am done with this guy) Sam (the dog) has just torn a large chunk of his body as a chew toy. Then I slowly walk down the hall with my 12 gauge mossy…

  6. #30
    mvslay is offline Junior Member
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    I'd go for my .45 cause it has night sights. Plus the 12 ga would make hell of a mess. When I get Night sights on my Para P-14 it may be the go to solution. I used to keep a .357 Revolver as a pillow gun. But now it's my kimber. Also I have a few targets posted on my bedroom door with nice clover leafs on them.

  7. #31
    Liko81 is offline Member
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    It would currently be my 9mm with 124gr JHPs. I did look very closely at the Mossberg Persuader on the rack at Academy, but other than driving 50 miles out of town with a couple boxes of buckshot cartridges, a cell phone and a friend, I have nowhere to go to become proficient with a shotgun.

    The 9mm, used effectively, should "persuade" any BG to stop what he's doing and crumple to the floor in a bloody heap. Any one of these weapons would have the neighbors awake and calling 911, but it's always a good idea to call for a meatwagon yourself. BG is handcuffed to a gurney (or in a body bag) and you head back to bed, maybe after screwing a board across the door or placing some other sort of anti-door-opening device like a burglar bar in place.

    Interesting legal question; BG breaks in and confronts you holding the firearm of your choice, which you discharge into BG. Texas now has the castle doctrine, so your actions are perfectly legal, and you are practically immune from lawsuit from the BG or his next of kin. However, once shot, the BG bleeds on an expensive rug and knocks your TV off the wall on the way to the ground. Can you sue the BG/next of kin for cleaning and a new TV? Are you likely to get anything? Does homeowners' insurance cover shootout damage?

  8. #32
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    My pistol gripped 870 would probably do the job just fine, but my pocket 45ACP is usually close by. Also, my girlfriend's scary accurate with her USP compact 357sig!
    Someone would be in for a world of hurt, but most likely just death.

  9. #33
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    I'd sue his A--...

    Messing up my carpet... the nerve...

    At least walk outside before you expire... bleed on the driveway!

  10. #34
    audiologic is offline Junior Member
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    I generally work late. But, A bump in the night isn't very uncommon in my house. I have 2 roommates who are your typical college kids. Stumbling in the door at 4:30 when the bars close. So I would generally think it was them. But, If it were the described situation. I'd reach right for the carry gun since i keep it bedside. My .45 is in a locked pistol bag, which is in a locked briefcase. (trying to be cautious.) I haven't purchased a shotgun, YET! Waiting for the girlfriend to stop taking all that excess money at the end of every month. I'll probably have to wait untill tax returns. Oh well, win some... lose some i guess.

  11. #35
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    same as i always say for home invasion, 12g w/buckshot. if someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night they are going to end up dead w/one blast.

  12. #36
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    I wouldn't grab the shotgun, at least not in my apartment. It's a two-story townhouse and to go from my room to the stairs, then to the rest of the downstairs other than half the living room, it's a straight 180-degree turn, which would be a lot easier with a handgun. Honestly if someone is dumb enough to break into the front door of my apartment, they're gonna hear my 9-month old pit bull shrieking from my room. I always keep the door latched to keep her from wandering downstairs and raiding the trash can, which she somehow manages to get into at least once a day without me knowing. She's adorable and a total sweetheart, but I've seen her when someone she doesn't know steps through the door, and it would scare me if I didn't know her. If I ever did feel someone had broken in, I would put her in her crate, grab my .40, and listen at the door. If I thought I could open it without being heard, I would do so, making sure my roommate's door was also closed. If he's in his room at night, it's completely shut. Then I would wait at the top of the steps and see if he was unlucky enough to show any part of his body. Kentucky has the Castle Doctrine, so yes, he would be shot. Twice in the crotch, then once in the crotch.

  13. #37
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    I wouldn't grab the shotgun, at least not in my apartment. It's a two-story townhouse and to go from my room to the stairs, then to the rest of the downstairs other than half the living room, it's a straight 180-degree turn, which would be a lot easier with a handgun. Honestly if someone is dumb enough to break into the front door of my apartment, they're gonna hear my 9-month old pit bull shrieking from my room. I always keep the door latched to keep her from wandering downstairs and raiding the trash can, which she somehow manages to get into at least once a day without me knowing. She's adorable and a total sweetheart, but I've seen her when someone she doesn't know steps through the door, and it would scare me if I didn't know her. If I ever did feel someone had broken in, I would put her in her crate, grab my .40, and listen at the door. If I thought I could open it without being heard, I would do so, making sure my roommate's door was also closed. If he's in his room at night, it's completely shut. Then I would wait at the top of the steps and see if he was unlucky enough to show any part of his body. Kentucky has the Castle Doctrine, so yes, he would be shot. Twice in the crotch, then once in the crotch.
    I am very glad I am not your roommate, since if I mistakenly closed my door before moving around the house I would be considered fair game for crotch shots. Three times.

    Not sure why you'd cage your fierce ally. Don't you want to scare the housebreaker? Maybe he'd surrender and you wouldn't have to shoot him in the crotch.

    Just because you can shoot doesn't necessarily mean you should shoot.
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  14. #38
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    i have a pt145 next to my bed on the night stand. it is somewhat hidden, so i dont have to worry about someone seeing and want to grab it. i only know where it is. i got a glock 19 in the drawer on the same night stand. i have a boxer that is very protective of his family and always makes some kind of noise when she dont know what it is. i also have a loud ass alarm when doors are forcebly opened and makes a beeping noise when opened reagularly. my 12 gauge shot gun is back home in texas so when my father buys his im bringing it back home to roost.

  15. #39
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Just because you can shoot doesn't necessarily mean you should shoot.
    Well put!

  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I am very glad I am not your roommate, since if I mistakenly closed my door before moving around the house I would be considered fair game for crotch shots. Three times.

    Not sure why you'd cage your fierce ally. Don't you want to scare the housebreaker? Maybe he'd surrender and you wouldn't have to shoot him in the crotch.

    Just because you can shoot doesn't necessarily mean you should shoot.
    My roommate's presence is unmistakeable. If it's him moving around I'll know it, but I'd always be sure it wasn't him before blowing his nuticles all over the floor. I'd cage her so the worst case scenario (her getting shot by the intruder) wouldn't happen. And even though she's a pit, she is by no means intimidating whatsoever.

  17. #41
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    My roommate's presence is unmistakeable. If it's him moving around I'll know it, but I'd always be sure it wasn't him before blowing his nuticles all over the floor. I'd cage her so the worst case scenario (her getting shot by the intruder) wouldn't happen.
    Are you actually serious about shooting for the "nuticles?" I hope you're joking...it's hard to tell in this medium.

    I am still trying to wrap my mind around caging the dog. Even if the situation goes really badly, isn't it better if the animal takes a bullet from an intruder, rather than you or your roommate? I mean, I like dogs and all...but it's just a dog. And you're giving up the ability to force the intruder to fight on two fronts - you and the dog - and thus giving up a major tactical advantage.

    And even though she's a pit, she is by no means intimidating whatsoever.
    I've seen her when someone she doesn't know steps through the door, and it would scare me if I didn't know her.
    So, ummmm, which is it? Is the dog scary or not?
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  18. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Are you actually serious about shooting for the "nuticles?" I hope you're joking...it's hard to tell in this medium.

    I am still trying to wrap my mind around caging the dog. Even if the situation goes really badly, isn't it better if the animal takes a bullet from an intruder, rather than you or your roommate? I mean, I like dogs and all...but it's just a dog. And you're giving up the ability to force the intruder to fight on two fronts - you and the dog - and thus giving up a major tactical advantage.

    So, ummmm, which is it? Is the dog scary or not?
    Lol, well if I was the bad guy, the nuts are the last place I'd wanna take a bullet. But in all seriousness, if the situation arose and I felt the need to use a firearm, I'd go for the two in the chest, one in the head. It might be better for my sake physically if my dog took a bullet instead of me, but I'm a dog lover to the 6th degree, and I would personally rather take a bullet than have her shot. Forcing the bad guy to converge on two targets rather than one makes sense, but I wouldn't use her as a decoy.

    If I didn't know the dog, it would spook me, but not make me think I should fear for my life. If it was a 120-pound rott snarling and charging full speed, I'd turn around and get out. But a little 42-pound puppy yapping? It's never happened so I have no idea how she would react. Pit bulls typically make terrible guard dogs as they are naturally very friendly with humans. I dunno...guess I'll never know unless it actually happens. In any case, she would hear someone before I would, and if she barks anywhere in the apartment, you can hear her. If someone had broken in and was deterred by a dog, he'd be out the door before either of us left my room. A dog's bark is an instant signal that someone in the house probably knows you're there. So whether or not he left would probably be based on his attitude toward whether or not he wanted a confrontation. As far as I know, very few people break and enter uninvited without some sort of weapon, so I would assume any intruder would be armed.

  19. #43
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Are you actually serious about shooting for the "nuticles?" I hope you're joking...it's hard to tell in this medium.
    I think it was Massad Ayoob in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" that actually recommended shooting someone in the pelvis, citing the mental intimidation (especially for a man) of having a gun pointed there, plus the fact of the arteries in that region and the results of a shattered pelvis making it very difficult to move. I don't really agree with it thinking that in a stressful situation I'm going for a BIG target like COM (a head shot seems absurd to me unless I'm within arms reach and can give the BG a nice powder burn as well), but it is an interesting opinion.

  20. #44
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    I think it was Massad Ayoob in his book "In The Gravest Extreme" that actually recommended shooting someone in the pelvis, citing the mental intimidation (especially for a man) of having a gun pointed there, plus the fact of the arteries in that region and the results of a shattered pelvis making it very difficult to move. I don't really agree with it thinking that in a stressful situation I'm going for a BIG target like COM (a head shot seems absurd to me unless I'm within arms reach and can give the BG a nice powder burn as well), but it is an interesting opinion.
    Mas covered this in some depth when I took his LFI-1 course. He doesn't advocate it as an recommended point of aim (or at least didn't when I took the course) in an actual fight. He likes the pelvic point of aim when holding someone at gunpoint, for three reasons:

    1. So you have an unobstructed view of the hands.
    2. The intimidation factor you mentioned.
    3. It's his opinion that a pelvic shot can be relied on to instantly immobilize a person.

    I can agree with the first reason, though of course Low Ready accomplishes the same thing.

    I am not sure anyone, and even less so a hardened criminal, would be more intimidated by a pelvic point of aim versus a competent-looking person at Low Ready. And if you order him to put his hands on or above his head, as you should, you can aim at his upper chest and still view his hands. Of course, he may decline to raise his hands, at which point you can revert to the pelvic POI or Low Ready.

    Based on some fairly convincing arguments against the pelvic POI made by medical doctors, I am very shaky on reason three. Several physicians I've read maintained that typical handgun bullets are not powerful enough to reliably shatter the very sturdy pelvis. They also stated that a fractured (as opposed to shattered) pelvis will not terribly impede movement, especially in a strong and/or highly motivated individual under stress. Thus, I find Ayoob's reasoning here a little suspect. I also note that the pelvis may be hard to hit simply because it is impossible to see, since I do not have x-ray or CAT-scan eyeballs. Further, if the bad guy has a gun and your pelvic shot does manage to knock him down, he can still shoot you.

    I agree that head shots will be very challenging in a real fight where everyone is moving. I think your analysis of an arm's length head shot is spot on, though obviously a very large percentage of fights do take place at arm's length. The other place it might be feasible is in a hostage-rescue type scenario, but so few armed citizens will ever face that situation that it can almost be discounted.
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  21. #45
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    The gun pointed at the crotchal region would be the most intimidating to me. A head shot you probably won't feel assuming the bullet penetrates the skull and causes immediate unconsciousness from brain trauma, and any body or limb shots can be healed to a certain degree, assuming they don't kill you, but a man's penis...that's something that could never be the same if it gets shot, and the thought of getting shot in the genitals at least renders the thought of maximum pain. I did some pretty extensive reading on the infamous "one shot stop," and from a physiological standpoint, a single shot that incapacitates the body (not necessarily kills) is a direct hit on the brain and CNS, more specifically the upper spinal cord. This makes sense, as some psychological factors can decrease or completely ignore the physical pain (especially when on cocaine, meth, or PCP). But at the same time, psychological factors can be the cause of immediate incapacitation rather than a fatal shot. Rage over being shot could overcome physical pain, while fear of being shot or killed could make the perception of pain much more than it really is. But generally speaking, people feel pain when they get shot, and a lot of that comes from overly believing that being shot means death. For a lot of people, they feel the amount of pain they think they should, rather than what the body's natural reaction should give them. I know there have been times I didn't realize I had done something that should hurt until I noticed I had done it. I slid a van door completely shut on my thumb and never felt a thing 'til I tried to move and realized my thumb was crushed. I chopped part of my finger off with a hatchet and didn't feel a thing 'til I saw the chunk of finger laying three inches away. If I'm reading while I get a tattoo, I barely feel the gun. The second I stop actively deverting my attention to something besides the subtle feeling on my skin, the pain sets in real quick. People tend to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear...and more often than not they feel what they want to feel. In the self defense category, it's an advantage when they think a bullet is really supposed to hurt. On the flipside, it's a serious disadvantage when they know anything but trauma to the brain and CNS will instantly drop you.

  22. #46
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The other place it might be feasible is in a hostage-rescue type scenario, but so few armed citizens will ever face that situation that it can almost be discounted.
    What are you talking about? Just the other day I encountered a hostage situation. No, wait. There I go again mixing up my video games and real life.

  23. #47
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    Might have missed it but didn't see anyone mention the fact that for the right load in a shotgun, you can far more effectively keep the nastiness to befall the BG in that room, rather than sending high-velocity holes though various walls (especially with little tikes in their beds upstairs.. that's a concern)..

    So you can effectively "pepper the perp" without giving your kids or your neighbors a taste as (I assume here) bird or deer shot is contained by walls far better than a stray 9mm, .357sig or .45 acp round.

    Shotgun:
    Perp goes bye bye and you've got some drywall and painting to do, but the kids stay safe (goal #1).

    Pistol:
    Might send a round though more than one wall, so even if you air-condition the perp, you might hit something or someone you really don't wanna.. which could make for a reeeeeeally bad scene in a father's life.

    ... all that from a guy looking at pistols for home defense.. go figure.. Well, range shooting also, but I'd be pretty darn sure of my firing angle.. downstream from friendlies.

  24. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    Might have missed it but didn't see anyone mention the fact that for the right load in a shotgun, you can far more effectively keep the nastiness to befall the BG in that room, rather than sending high-velocity holes though various walls (especially with little tikes in their beds upstairs.. that's a concern)..

    So you can effectively "pepper the perp" without giving your kids or your neighbors a taste as (I assume here) bird or deer shot is contained by walls far better than a stray 9mm, .357sig or .45 acp round.

    Shotgun:
    Perp goes bye bye and you've got some drywall and painting to do, but the kids stay safe (goal #1).

    Pistol:
    Might send a round though more than one wall, so even if you air-condition the perp, you might hit something or someone you really don't wanna.. which could make for a reeeeeeally bad scene in a father's life.

    ... all that from a guy looking at pistols for home defense.. go figure.. Well, range shooting also, but I'd be pretty darn sure of my firing angle.. downstream from friendlies.
    My experience tells me that a 12 Guage shotgun (lesser calibers also) will make very nasty holes through both sides of a sheet rock wall and still kill you very dead. If you have several walls between you and precious cargo it might be safe but one wall is no guarantee. Don't count on Sheet rock to protect from any gun suitable for defense against full size people. At 5 ft. a 1 oz. charge of lead pellets acts essentialy like a slug.

    If you hit the perp in a thick zone before your shot/reaches sheetrock it will probably prevent passage into the next room from most rounds. If you miss your target all bets are off.


  25. #49
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    TOF is exactly correct. Check out the tests at www.theboxotruth.com. A shotgun loaded with buckshot (#4 through 00) goes through the same amount of drywall as a 9mm or .45 pistol, approximately 6-7 sheets, which is equivalent to three interior walls. Birdshot may go through less drywall, but being designed to kill little birds, only penetrates 4-5" in unclothed gelatin, which isn't nearly enough to reliably hit vital organs on a human, especially one clad in a coat.

    Any round that penetrates deeply enough to reliably put down a human will also go through several interior walls. Instead of trying to find a magic bullet or load, we need to learn to shoot carefully and make the hits we need to end the fight and keep our family safe.
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 12-12-2007 at 08:52 PM.
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  26. #50
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    Just got an Insight M3 tac light for my glock21, It's my allowance to fall asleep at night... a slight exaggeration, more like dedicated nightstand gun.

    edit: JHPs of course. Federal Premium Hydra-shok.

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